25715 réponses à ce sujet

[BrandNewMan]

The Twilight God wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

elektrego wrote...
She says that to every Shepard who hasn't romanced her in ME1, male and female. So by your logic, he just proved Ashley is asexual.

Haha nice one!

The Twilight God wrote...
Male players typically leave Kaidan to die on Virmire and aren't interested in making out with another male character. You have to remember that this would be a poll for people who want m/m romance. It's not like every single player is required to vote on this regardless of sexual orientation. I have no clue how many females post on this forum. I know it is generally accepted that there are more male gamers than female gamers. But forumites? I have no clue on those percentages. I'm willing to bet there are alot more heterosexual females posting here than homosexual males so straight females could definitely effect the numbers of a m/m romance poll. Homosexuals are a very small minority.

Guys 2/3, girls 1/3

And yes, there are more straight females than gay guys, but not as much to influence voting significantly, since the number of gay guys is raised by the fact there's more males in general. One way or another, the fact straight guys outnumber gay/bi girls several times compared to straight girls outnumbering gay/bi guys is beyond any doubt.

IsaacShep, I don't think you quite grasp just how small the percentage of homosexuals are. Even if there were 10 males for every female, there would still probably be more female posters than homosexual male posters. Even San Francisco, a "gay mecca", only has a 16% gay population. The national average is about 3% rounding up.

You have roughly 3000 people voting on that poll. Even if 15% of the male participants were gay that would only be 300 gay males to 850 straight females. Realistically, using a 3% male - 1.5% female model it would be 60 gay males to 985 straight females or roughly Straight Girls 19/20, Gay Guys 1/20.

See where I'm coming from?

I think it is very possible that females can effect m/m poll numbers just as much as males can effect f/f romances. But I'll give you this; More men play femshep than women who play maleshep (at least I think so) and have more of a vested interest in more f/f romances. So on that note, the amount of opposite sex influence could be greater on the f/f side.

Where do bisexual guys and girls fall?

[AngelicMachinery]

BrandNewMan wrote...

Where do bisexual guys and girls fall?

We're always stuck somewhere in between... it can be rough.

[vorianxavier]

For me nowadays, unless a character actually has a line where they say "I'm totally straight, yo," I'm not assuming anything. I can't read their minds. If a character appeals to me in some way during my playthrough, I'll attempt to pursue a relationship regardless of gender. If I'm turned down, so be it, but it wouldn't bother me in the least if every LI in every game was available to every gender.

[The Twilight God]

BrandNewMan wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

IsaacShep, I don't think you quite grasp just how small the percentage of homosexuals are. Even if there were 10 males for every female, there would still probably be more female posters than homosexual male posters. Even San Francisco, a "gay mecca", only has a 16% gay population. The national average is about 3% rounding up.

You have roughly 3000 people voting on that poll. Even if 15% of the male participants were gay that would only be 300 gay males to 850 straight females. Realistically, using a 3% male - 1.5% female model it would be 60 gay males to 985 straight females or roughly Straight Girls 19/20, Gay Guys 1/20.

See where I'm coming from?

I think it is very possible that females can effect m/m poll numbers just as much as males can effect f/f romances. But I'll give you this; More men play femshep than women who play maleshep (at least I think so) and have more of a vested interest in more f/f romances. So on that note, the amount of opposite sex influence could be greater on the f/f side.

Where do bisexual guys and girls fall?

I consider bisexuals to be gay. On another note, the U.S. Census says 7.7% of men and 7.5% of women report same-gender desire. While 2.8% of men and 1.4% of women report homosexual or bisexual identity. But I used the San Francisco percentages, which are greater than 7.7%, so I'm covered either way.

I find the use of the phrase "same-gender desire" as being seperate from homosexual or bisexual confusing. Does this include bisexuals who only sexually engage with the opposite sex? Is it heterosexual men who have or are willing to have sex with a transvestite or transsexual with predominately feminine aesthetics? Or people who have had strong emotional feelings towards a person of the same sex, but lack any sexual desire toward said person? It could mean anything.

Modifié par The Twilight God, 19 juin 2011 - 12:28 .

[shepskisaac]

The Twilight God wrote...
IsaacShep, I don't think you quite grasp just how small the percentage of homosexuals are. Even if there were 10 males for every female, there would still probably be more female posters than homosexual male posters. Even San Francisco, a "gay mecca", only has a 16% gay population. The national average is about 3% rounding up.

You have roughly 3000 people voting on that poll. Even if 15% of the male participants were gay that would only be 300 gay males to 850 straight females. Realistically, using a 3% male - 1.5% female model it would be 60 gay males to 985 straight females or roughly Straight Girls 19/20, Gay Guys 1/20.

See where I'm coming from?

I think it is very possible that females can effect m/m poll numbers just as much as males can effect f/f romances. But I'll give you this; More men play femshep than women who play maleshep (at least I think so) and have more of a vested interest in more f/f romances. So on that note, the amount of opposite sex influence could be greater on the f/f side.

My point wasn't that straight female don't influence gay polls at all, but that they do it significantly less then straight males do in lesbian polls.
You don't calculate the proportions this way when there's a huge disproportion between males and females. Let's assume 3% of general population is gay and 2% is lesbian. In general population proportions between men and women are roughly equal 50/50, that means 3 gay guys in a group of 50 guys ( which is 6% of men only group) and 2 lesbians in a group of 50 girls (which is 4% of women only group).

Now taking 2:1 proportion between guys and girls here on BioWare forums, we have (roughly) 66 guys and 33 girls (per 100 users). 6% of these 66 guys is roughly 4 gay guys (per 100 users). 1 more than it would usually be due to greater number of men in general here compared to general public where there's equal number of men and women. 4% of these 33 girls is roughly 1,33 lesbian girls (per 100 users).

That means there's roughly 4 gay guys against 31,66 straight girls (33 all girls minus 1,33 lesbian girls) per 100 users. 31,66 / 4 = 7.9 - Straight girls outnumber gay guys almost 8 times.
And there's roughly 1,33 lesbian girls against 62 straight guys (66 all guys minus 4 gay guys) per 100 users. 62/1,33 = 46.62 - straight guys outnumber lesbian girls over 46 times.

Finally, we compare the 'outnumbering' figures - 46.62 / 7.9 = 5.9 - straight guys outnumber lesbian girls almost six times more than straight girls outnumber gay guys, which means straight guys influence lesbian LI polls almost 6 times more than straight girls influence gay LI polls.

I'm only saying that on these forums, due to larger number of men in general compared to women, men will influence polls on the content that in theory is for females much more than females will be able to influence polls that asks about content for men. These are all theoretical startstics anyway, not including bisexuals and how many straight men like to role-play lesbians (thus will actually VOTE in the polls) compared to how many straight women like to role-play gays.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 19 juin 2011 - 01:27 .

[Siansonea]

Terror330 wrote...

@Siansonea II

I agree that coding should not be the primary factor in building a character, but it's already been done. Look at both of them becoming Spectre's. Ashley's family has pretty much been blacklisted and that still happened? In a game of this size there is a good chance coding is going to come into play. It may not be popular, but it's the unfortunate reality. Either way there is still nothing to go off of to determine either ones sexuality, other then there actions in the first game. Personally, I think it's easier to make them both hetero, but Kaidan fans want him bi and there are Ash fans that want her bi. Neither one of the characters have done, or said anything to definitively to indicate they are bi. The BW writers are going to have to write something in either way to make them work as s/s LI's if that's BW's decision. Some may take the "losing a limb" line as a sign Kaidan is interested in maleshep. Some may take, "you were more then our commander" from Ash as a sign she's interested in femshep. Nobody knows, what the characters are really getting at, we're all speculating. Right now, all we really know is they both like the opposite sex. Both Kaidan and Ashley would have to something written into their backstory for a bi romance to work. If they both went for s/s Shep for the same exact reasoning I wouldn't be very happy. I think that's what you're afraid of, and I agree they shouldn't be handled in exactly the same way, but it doesn't mean they couldn't have the same feelings, and just express them in different ways. I think if both were bi options they'd both have different reasons for wanting Shep. In all honesty though, it would just be so much easier if they were both hetero.

Well, I'm going to leave all the worrying about coding and game mechanics and all of that out of my analysis. I know it's a reality of the game, but I will always approach the characters from the standpoint of their character alone. For me personally, I feel like Kaidan has a lot more room to become a bisexual LI than Ashley, and I would like it because it would be a departure from the quantum nature of the character. And even if Kaidan was hetero and Ashley was bi, I would still prefer it to both of them being bi, even though Kaidan is the one I would prefer as s/s LI. That's how strongly I feel about the VS-as-a-single-character schtick BioWare has been giving us. I know some degree of that is unavoidable for coding reasons, but it's not completely unavoidable. And to whatever extent they can differentiate Kaidan and Ashley in ME3, they should, because many of us do multiple playthroughs, and that's one very easy way to make the entire complexion of the game slightly different from the get-go. Naturally in combat and whatnot they'll pretty much act the same, but they SHOULD respond very differently outside of that. I don't want Kaidan and Ashley to say "you bastard, you're selling us out!" at the same moment in the game, like in ME1 during Shepard's final meeting with Udina and the Council before stealing the Normandy. I always thought they should have had different lines there. And really, how hard would that have been? Udina's response could have been the same, since it was addressed to Shepard anyway. And that's a non-romance example.

Now granted, if Ashley and Kaidan ARE both bisexual in the game, I probably won't rant too much about it. After all, it's expanded options, and I'm very much in favor of expanded options. I do hope that if they do go this route, each character gets separate dialogue and separate animations, and even different moments in the game where the dialog occurs. Maybe Ashley and FemShep have a moment after a mission debrief, and maybe Kaidan and Shepard have a moment during a lull in an active mission. After all, there might be opportunities for downtime during missions, when Shepard and the crew are planetside for a few days rather than a few hours. Uniting whole civilizations shouldn't simply be a matter of Shepard showing up, going and killing a group of bad guys, and then adding that civilization to the fleet retaking Earth. Maybe Ashley has a moment on Palaven, but Kaidan's moment is on Thessia or something. ANYTHING to differentiate them. I really like both these characters, and I sincerely hope they're written as Ashley and Kaidan, and not as "VS".

[Siansonea]

IsaacShep wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...
IsaacShep, I don't think you quite grasp just how small the percentage of homosexuals are. Even if there were 10 males for every female, there would still probably be more female posters than homosexual male posters. Even San Francisco, a "gay mecca", only has a 16% gay population. The national average is about 3% rounding up.

You have roughly 3000 people voting on that poll. Even if 15% of the male participants were gay that would only be 300 gay males to 850 straight females. Realistically, using a 3% male - 1.5% female model it would be 60 gay males to 985 straight females or roughly Straight Girls 19/20, Gay Guys 1/20.

See where I'm coming from?

I think it is very possible that females can effect m/m poll numbers just as much as males can effect f/f romances. But I'll give you this; More men play femshep than women who play maleshep (at least I think so) and have more of a vested interest in more f/f romances. So on that note, the amount of opposite sex influence could be greater on the f/f side.

My point wasn't that straight female don't influence gay polls at all, but that they do it significantly less then straight males do in lesbian polls.
You don't calculate the proportions this way when there's a huge disproportion between males and females. Let's assume 3% of general population is gay and 2% is lesbian. In general population proportions between men and women are roughly equal 50/50, that means 3 gay guys in a group of 50 guys ( which is 6% of men only group) and 2 lesbians in a group of 50 girls (which is 4% of women only group).

Now taking 2:1 proportion between guys and girls here on BioWare forums, we have (roughly) 66 guys and 33 girls (per 100 users). 6% of these 66 guys is roughly 4 gay guys (per 100 users). 1 more than it would usually be due to greater number of men in general here compared to general public where there's equal number of men and women. 4% of these 33 girls is roughly 1,33 lesbian girls (per 100 users).

That means there's roughly 4 gay guys against 31,66 straight girls (33 all girls minus 1,33 lesbian girls) per 100 users. 31,66 / 4 = 7.9 - Straight girls outnumber gay guys almost 8 times.
And there's roughly 1,33 lesbian girls against 62 straight guys (66 all guys minus 4 gay guys) per 100 users. 62/1,33 = 46.62 - straight guys outnumber lesbian girls over 46 times.

Finally, we compare the 'outnumbering' figures - 46.62 / 7.9 = 5.9 - straight guys outnumber lesbian girls almost six times more than straight girls outnumber gay guys, which means straight guys influence lesbian LI polls almost 6 times more than straight girls influence gay LI polls.

I'm only saying that on these forums, due to larger number of men in general compared to women, men will influence polls on the content that in theory is for females much more than females will be able to influence polls that asks about content for men. These are all theoretical startstics anyway, not including bisexuals and how many straight men like to role-play lesbians (thus will actually VOTE in the polls) compared to how many straight women like to role-play gays.

And then there's anomalies like myself: a straight woman who likes to role-play straight women, lesbians, gay men and straight men. I vote in ALL the polls.

[shepskisaac]

Siansonea II wrote...
And then there's anomalies like myself: a straight woman who likes to role-play straight women, lesbians, gay men and straight men. I vote in ALL the polls.

Haha that's really cool Sometimes I wish I could do that, but in RPGs, when I'm suppoused to *be* the character I can never role-play as a girl, I just don't connect to such avatar at all It's different when I play a pre-defined character like Lara Croft, then I know I'm not role-playing her

Modifié par IsaacShep, 19 juin 2011 - 01:50 .

[BrandNewMan]

The Twilight God wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...

The Twilight God wrote...

IsaacShep, I don't think you quite grasp just how small the percentage of homosexuals are. Even if there were 10 males for every female, there would still probably be more female posters than homosexual male posters. Even San Francisco, a "gay mecca", only has a 16% gay population. The national average is about 3% rounding up.

You have roughly 3000 people voting on that poll. Even if 15% of the male participants were gay that would only be 300 gay males to 850 straight females. Realistically, using a 3% male - 1.5% female model it would be 60 gay males to 985 straight females or roughly Straight Girls 19/20, Gay Guys 1/20.

See where I'm coming from?

I think it is very possible that females can effect m/m poll numbers just as much as males can effect f/f romances. But I'll give you this; More men play femshep than women who play maleshep (at least I think so) and have more of a vested interest in more f/f romances. So on that note, the amount of opposite sex influence could be greater on the f/f side.

Where do bisexual guys and girls fall?

I consider bisexuals to be gay.

Not many people do, so using it like that would just be confusing.

[Abispa]

Well, Abispa is a straight male who plays a straight male Shepard (Ashley), a straight female Shepard (Kaiden) and a lesbian Shepard (Liara). I have played as a female and a male metagame Shepard, but I just use them to experiment AFTER I beat the game with my main characters just to see all the options.

There was a good chance I'd have never played a lesbian Shepard with Liara had I not preferred Hale's VA to Meer's. I wasn't going for the Cinemax action.

The "other" Abispa is a straight woman who likes to play as every variation Shepard imaginable (most she never finishes), but since she only romances males in RPGs no matter her character's gender, her male Shepard's have been lonely. There have been dozens of gay Wardens and Hawkes on our hard drive (not sure how many have been finished). She REALLY liked LotSB, so she's SAID she MIGHT give Liara a try, but I'm no sure what gender Shepard will be.

I'm not really sure what our character choices say about the players, but I do find it interesting reading.

Modifié par Abispa, 19 juin 2011 - 02:03 .

[Siansonea]

IsaacShep wrote...

Siansonea II wrote...
And then there's anomalies like myself: a straight woman who likes to role-play straight women, lesbians, gay men and straight men. I vote in ALL the polls.

Haha that's really cool Sometimes I wish I could do that, but in RPGs, when I'm suppoused to *be* the character I can never role-play as a girl, I just don't connect to such avatar at all It's different when I play a pre-defined character like Lara Croft, then I know I'm not role-playing her

Well, I come from a pen-and-paper RPG background, and I realized quickly that playing nice female self-insert characters was going to get old quick. In those games I play male characters at least 30% of the time, and I try to mix up classes, alignments, defining traits, voice performances, etc., as much as I can. I honestly find playing evil characters to be quite enjoyable, because they are SO different from me in real life. My character in my tabletop game today wanted to kill a group of 20 or so horses, just so the people they were ambushing wouldn't have a quick escape method, and she routinely advocates assassination and other types of pre-emptive tactics, even if she's not certain that an individual or group is an actual enemy. She is a TRIP. I like crawling into the mind of a character and driving them around based on their world view and experiences in the game, it's a lot of fun. 

I think a fair number of people do the same thing in the Mass Effect games. I never really connected to Shepard or Hawke as "me", they were always a 3rd person character. And 3rd person characters can do things I never would do, like save Morinth, or punch Khalisah al-Jilani, or kill the Rachni Queen, etc. That's why I am so in favor of expanding s/s options—I want to see as many variations in my playthroughs as possible. I would get bored playing a Shepard based on me all the time, I'd have to name her Suzy Cream Cheese Shepard. That's one reason I made my most goody-two-shoes character male, because I didn't want to start feeling like I was just doing what "I" would do. My goody-two-shoes female is of African descent and in a lesbian relationship with Liara, and she's also more of a "chaotic good" type, again these were decisions I made to make her as distinct from my own circumstances and personality as I could. Honestly, the closest thing to a self-insert character is my Engineer, who is predominantly neutral and romanced Kaidan in the first game, and avoided romance in ME2. And guess what? She's the one I usually play last, because she kind of bores me a little bit.

You really should try playing a not-you Shepard, maybe even creating a "Lara" Shepard, and pretending she's descended from Lara Croft. It's a revelation.

[Maugrim]

The results of the preferred male and female LI to become s/s avaliable polls so far, nothing really surprising I think.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 19 juin 2011 - 02:16 .

[shepskisaac]

Siansonea II wrote...
You really should try playing a not-you Shepard

I did try to play as female in RPGs but I just don't connect to such character in a bit I have rather weird and inconsistient role-playing habits. I always play dark side/evil/renegade characters for example which is a complete opposite to me IRL. Then I only play guys which is like me IRL. But then I make my male characters have all the different skin colours possible, some look asian, some arabic, black, white, never have a problem to role-play a male avatar that doesn't look like me IRL and connect with that avatar.

Wonder what could some good shrink tell about my personality based on my role-playing habits, he prolly would say it's all connected to being comfortable in your own sking (thus not afraid to role-play something different) and that I'm comfortable in my skin only in come cases and not in others lol

makenzieshepard wrote...
The results of the preferred male and female LI to become s/s avaliable polls so far, nothing really surprising I think.

And then girls are mad when we say women can't make decide on anything joking joking!

Modifié par IsaacShep, 19 juin 2011 - 02:20 .

[Maugrim]

IsaacShep wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...
The results of the preferred male and female LI to become s/s avaliable polls so far, nothing really surprising I think.

And then girls are mad when we say women can't make decide on anything joking joking!

All of the above is a perfectly valid decision! 

[shepskisaac]

Nyoka wrote...

Would I be guilty of hopeless cynicism if I couldn't help thinking most guys want Kaidan as the s/s LI because they left him to die on Virmire...?

I can assure you great majority of gay guys didn't left him to die on Virmire. As for straight guys, they can easily "get rid" of Jacob, Garrus and Thane in SM so the argument "they vote for this or that because they can get rid of him before ME3" is not very valid considering they can get rid of any of these guys.

[Siansonea]

IsaacShep wrote...

Nyoka wrote...

Would I be guilty of hopeless cynicism if I couldn't help thinking most guys want Kaidan as the s/s LI because they left him to die on Virmire...?

I can assure you great majority of gay guys didn't left him to die on Virmire. As for straight guys, they can easily "get rid" of Jacob, Garrus and Thane in SM so the argument "they vote for this or that because they can get rid of him before ME3" is not very valid considering they can get rid of any of these guys.

True, but they don't HAVE to let Garrus, Thane or Jacob die on Collector Station, and they aren't required to allow female character to die in order for them to survive. Virmire is a special case, you have to save one, and allow the other to die. No one can save Ashley and Kaidan. I speculate that many people who are uncomfortable with same-sex content are likely to also find it difficult to save a male character and allow a female character to die, though I can't articulate exactly why I think that might be the case. Granted, some people are very logical, and Kaidan is a biotic, a commissioned officer, etc., which is theoretically a higher-value asset to the Alliance than a gunnery chief, but I doubt very many people make the VS decision based solely on military asset criteria. Only two of my Shepards made the decision on that basis, the two who romanced Liara and therefore didn't have a personal stake in the decision. The other four saved their LI (or desired LI, in the case of my male Sentinel).

So Nyoka, I wouldn't say it's cynicism per se, since I have a similar hypothesis. But I honestly don't think most guys are against same-sex content in the first place, I think it's a very vocal subset of the community that is actively opposed to inclusion. I do think most guys who are heterosexual are just naturally drawn more to Ashley than Kaidan. Ashley was written with a male audience in mind, and Kaidan was written with a female audience in mind, and it's no surprise that the fanbase seems to follow that pattern, at least among heterosexual players. And Ashley is a compelling character in her own right, for many people the Virmire decision is less about killing Kaidan and more about saving Ashley, or vice versa.

[jeweledleah]

Nyoka wrote...

Would I be guilty of hopeless cynicism if I couldn't help thinking most guys want Kaidan as the s/s LI because they left him to die on Virmire...?

more like Yaoi fans and a few genuinely gay guys want him for LI. 

however cynic in me wants to say that so many people like to say that he has "gay vibes" whatever the hell that means for a video game character with limited animations, because he's sensitive, takes relationships seriously and not in your face tough guy >_> oh yeah, don't forget the hair.  apparently having curly hair that tends to assume whatever shape you cut it in, like a hedgebush = using lots of hairproducts = gay.

[bleetman]

jeweledleah wrote...

however cynic in me wants to say that so many people like to say that he has "gay vibes" whatever the hell that means for a video game character with limited animations, because he's sensitive, takes relationships seriously and not in your face tough guy >_> oh yeah, don't forget the hair.  apparently having curly hair that tends to assume whatever shape you cut it in, like a hedgebush = using lots of hairproducts = gay.

I'm sure his "losing you was like losing a limb" line has nothing to do with it.

[Siansonea]

Just for giggles and grins, I made a poll about the VS decision:

http://social.biowar...64/polls/21301/

[Maugrim]

Siansonea II wrote...

Just for giggles and grins, I made a poll about the VS decision:

http://social.biowar...64/polls/21301/

Needs moar options, I am female, would save them both if I could but will always save Ash since I am forced!  Eh I'll just go with save them both if I could.

[AngelicMachinery]

Same with as Makenzie, I would save both if I could but I will typically save Ash over Kaidan unless I specifically start a play through where I'll be romancing Kaidan.

[shepskisaac]

Nyoka wrote...

@IsaacShep but that's only if you import a save from ME2... however, Ashley is the default VS if you play Manshep, even if you don't import. Keep in mind that only 50% of players imported a save from ME1, so unless things are different this time, the other three guys could very well be there in the playthroughs of 50% of straight guys... moreover, I doubt ALL of those who will import their save will have the three guys killed (some will, not all), so the percentage would go up a little. Could some of those guys have voted? I say if you don't want to see anything gay (except probably for hawt lesbian action, because that's not eww eeky), Kaidan is your safest bet ;-)

You can't skew the results reflected in the amount of fan art, fan fiction and fan videos there is for ManShep/Kaidan pairing compared to any other gay pairing which proves the results in these polls are not really skewed and that there's a true huge demand for ManShep/Kaidan romance. Unless of ourse we assume straight guys sit there and draw kissing ManShep and Kaidan trying to skew the amount of fan art/fiction/videos

jeweledleah wrote...
more like Yaoi fans and a few genuinely gay guys want him for LI. 

No. Majority of gay guys want him for s/s LI.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 19 juin 2011 - 03:12 .

[AngelicMachinery]

IsaacShep wrote...

You can't skew the results reflected in the amount of fan art, fan fiction and fan videos there is for ManShep/Kaidan pairing compared to any other gay pairing which proves the results in these polls are not really skewed and that there's a true huge demand for ManShep/Kaidan romance. Unless of ourse we assume straight guys sit there and draw kissing ManShep and Kaidan trying to skew the amount of fan art/fiction/videos

It's a conspiracy I tell ya!