25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Siansonea]

IsaacShep wrote...

People talk how it would change the character yet no one managed to say what exactly would've changed.

From my perspective the only pertinent topic is the fact that they pursue opposite-sex Shepard, but not same-sex Shepard, and that dynamic is different for each character. Some characters don't pursue Shepard much at all, like Kaidan, who has to be taken by the hand by FemShep, whereas others like Ashley are rather more forward. It's a question of why they didn't pursue same-sex Shepard, and the answer should be different for each character. In some cases, it really should be as simple as "they don't swing that way". In other cases, it could easily be that they thought Shepard didn't swing that way. In other cases, maybe they just weren't that attracted to s/s Shepard at that time. If they do open up any characters for s/s, I think they should have at least a line of dialog to explain the 11th hour aspect of the romance.

[Cartims]

IsaacShep wrote...

People talk how it would change the character yet no one managed to say what exactly would've changed.

Errr...Gay Shep would lose his/hers job, their friends an family's respect, Gay Shep would be talked about in the forums on BSN and forced to live a life of constant struggle.....the Reapers would win because Shep was too busy fighting discrimination .....my. my ....what we have missed...tis a shame indeed......that is some change...

[Siansonea]

@Cartims: I think Isaac's asking about "Gay" (Bisexual) Kaidan, Ashley, Tali, Miranda, Garrus, etc. Gay Shepard just picks the "Deal With It" dialog option.

[Abispa]

I would be surprised IF, and I mean IF, former squad-mates become S/S options in ME3 that there will be ANY sign that the characters are into gay relationships unless Shepard chooses the "love" option to "activate" it. In other words, unlike the universal "gay switch" that some players are demanding, there will be a dozen or so individual "switches."

That would not be necessary for me since I KNOW that the reality is that the gay romances are a fan service, and I'm not going to waste my time whining that the Garrus I daydream about having snuggle-bunnies with my Korean female Shepard may be knocking boots with a gay male Shepard lovingly crafted by a S/S love fan.

I hope Bioware doesn't chicken out and remove any flirtations or "curious exploration" from new LIs, be they new characters or someone like Joker. I'd love to see Joker's eyes light up like Kaidan's, Ashley's, and Liara's did in ME1 if he somehow finds out that male Shepard does "swing that way."

And to tell the truth, I would not mind an Aveline situation if Shepard tries to use the "love" option on a character s/he has no shot with. You know, you hit on the cook and find out his heart belongs to Zaeed.

[Siansonea]

+ 1 for Shepard getting shot down. I have a Shepard set aside for this type of thing. He'd hump anything that moves. He really needs help. He's already bedded Ashley and Jack, I'd love for him to continue to dig his own grave.

[Abispa]

Siansonea II wrote...

+ 1 for Shepard getting shot down. I have a Shepard set aside for this type of thing. He'd hump anything that moves. He really needs help. He's already bedded Ashley and Jack, I'd love for him to continue to dig his own grave.

I would love the option to play a pathetic swinger Shepard with Meer using his bisexual elf hooker voice or Hale using her "talking to Jacob alone for the first time" voice.

[Abispa]

@ Siansonea II -- Did that same Shepard have a late night "dinner" with Kelly? She hasn't been up that late since college.

[AngelicMachinery]

78stonewobble wrote...

I am one of those who link sexual preferences as part of a persons character.

Sure in the game it's as simple as setting a flag in some bit of software and thats all it changes. However in real life. Think of how much eg. your relationships (partially decided by your sexuality) have shaped yourself as a person and then remove them and the lessions from these relationships from yourself.

Sure we are not "just" our sexual preferences. There's a helluva lot more to each of us than that but it is part of our character and it continiously shapes our character by just being as it is.

Just my 5 cents offcourse.

Relationships are decided by much more than sex though,  perhaps it's my bisexuality showing...  but a persons personality tends to come more into play than simply what they have between their legs.  Really,  I would finger even when it comes to straights and gays gender while it is a defining aspect of whom you choose it is far more important that the personalities mesh over the plumbing.  Ego,  I would figure that personality aspects would be far more important when it came to ME relationships...  but most characters can be romanced by Paragons and Renegades which boggles my mind.

[Siansonea]

Abispa wrote...

@ Siansonea II -- Did that same Shepard have a late night "dinner" with Kelly? She hasn't been up that late since college.

Heh heh "I'd catch you baby!":devil:

[Siansonea]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...

I am one of those who link sexual preferences as part of a persons character.

Sure in the game it's as simple as setting a flag in some bit of software and thats all it changes. However in real life. Think of how much eg. your relationships (partially decided by your sexuality) have shaped yourself as a person and then remove them and the lessions from these relationships from yourself.

Sure we are not "just" our sexual preferences. There's a helluva lot more to each of us than that but it is part of our character and it continiously shapes our character by just being as it is.

Just my 5 cents offcourse.

Relationships are decided by much more than sex though,  perhaps it's my bisexuality showing...  but a persons personality tends to come more into play than simply what they have between their legs.  Really,  I would finger even when it comes to straights and gays gender while it is a defining aspect of whom you choose it is far more important that the personalities mesh over the plumbing.  Ego,  I would figure that personality aspects would be far more important when it came to ME relationships...  but most characters can be romanced by Paragons and Renegades which boggles my mind.

Your bisexuality is showing!

And yeah, the fact that characters will jump in bed with Shepard in spite of all sorts of heinous/goody-two-shoes actions is way more mind boggling than a little flexibility regarding Shep's gender. Jack romancing a Cerberus-loving Shepard? For realz? Kaidan romancing a Shepard who kills the rachni queen, kills Shiala and doesn't even try to use the Anti-Thorian gas on the Feros colonists, etc.? As IF. And Tali going along with Shep, developing a crush, etc., even if he's a complete douche to her outside of the engine room and refuses to give her the geth data, etc.? Come on now.

[AngelicMachinery]

Siansonea II wrote...

Your bisexuality is showing!

Well,  erm... can't blame me for attempting to be reasonable.  I still do think the point should still be somewhat pertinent.

[vorianxavier]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Relationships are decided by  much more than sex though,  perhaps it's my bisexuality showing...  but a persons personality tends to come more into play than simply what they  have between their legs.  Really,  I would finger even when it comes to  straights and gays gender while it is a defining aspect of whom you  choose it is far more important that the personalities mesh over the  plumbing.  Ego,  I would figure that personality aspects would be far more important when it came to ME relationships...  but most characters can be romanced by Paragons and Renegades which boggles my mind.

I agree with all of this completely...could partially be my pansexuality showing though I guess it would be more notable if a straight or gay person agreed.

As for the Paragon/Renegade issue, part of the problem must be that ME does not have a companion influence system like DA. In ME all that seems to matter is doing the LMs and making sure Shep has enough points in charm/intimidate/etc to be persuasive. It's not ideal that a pure Paragon and pure Renegade might be able to romance the same companions, but it's rarely quite as much an issue for me since I can't stay morally consistent anyway Paragade and Renegon all the way.

Modifié par vorianxavier, 21 juin 2011 - 04:08 .

[KawaiiKatie]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Relationships are decided by much more than sex though,  perhaps it's my bisexuality showing...  but a persons personality tends to come more into play than simply what they have between their legs.  Really,  I would finger even when it comes to straights and gays gender while it is a defining aspect of whom you choose it is far more important that the personalities mesh over the plumbing.  Ego,  I would figure that personality aspects would be far more important when it came to ME relationships...  but most characters can be romanced by Paragons and Renegades which boggles my mind.

Yes, relationships are built on more than sex, but sexual attraction is just as important as personality when it comes to fully-realized, consummate love. The statement "it is far more important that the personalities mesh over the plumbing" just isn't true. Though I don't claim to be an expert on the issue, we can look at the Triangular Theory of Love:



A fully-realized relationship needs attachment, commitment, and sexual attraction. If any of these are missing, the relationship cannot be whole, so it is unfair to say that sexual attraction is less important than any other element of a relationship.

A Mass Effect example of this, for me, is Garrus. He has the correct "plumbing" that I would generally require (that is, he is male) and I feel attachment and commitment to his personality, his character. I am not, however, physically attracted to him. I am not sexual attarcted to his Turian biology. Could I (by the way of Shepard) enter a relationship with him based on mutual commitment and attachment? Absolutely. But our inability to click sexually would be our downfall. So yes, sexual attraction is important.

However! I do think that I agree with your argument at it's core: the love-interests' infatuation with Shepard despite his/her actions, despite his/her conflicting personality, is confusing and, at times, jarring. Like sexual attraction, personalities must click for the relationship to flourish.

Personality is an extremely important part of any romantic relationship, but it is no more or less important than sexual attraction.

[AngelicMachinery]

KawaiiKatie wrote...
he statement "it is far more important that the personalities mesh over the plumbing" just isn't true.

Is it?  So,  as long as someone is young know a man or woman they are in fact completely compatible with you?  It doesn't matter if you find them dull,  agitating,  obnoxious, or just plain repugnant?  This is what relationships are based on,  you may of course prefer to see these traits in one sex or another but those traits are far more important than the sex alone.

[KawaiiKatie]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...
he statement "it is far more important that the personalities mesh over the plumbing" just isn't true.

Is it?  So,  as long as someone is young know a man or woman they are in fact completely compatible with you?  It doesn't matter if you find them dull,  agitating,  obnoxious, or just plain repugnant?  This is what relationships are based on,  you may of course prefer to see these traits in one sex or another but those traits are far more important than the sex alone.

I never said that sexuality was more important. I said that it is an equal factor. Personality is a key element to a fully-realized relationship, but so is sexual attraction and mutual commitment. They are equal, and it is simply not true or fair to say that one is more important than the other.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 21 juin 2011 - 04:32 .

[Destroy Raiden_]

Siansonea II wrote...

Destroy Raiden wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

XX55XX wrote...

Well argued. Some people want to change people's characters completely so that it fits with what they want from their game. 

That's not really true.  Most people that want character X open to s/s love do not think it will change their character so 'completely' or as much as you think it would, so saying people here want to change the character no matter what is false.  All it would change about said character is that now they would be open to a possible romance with the same gendered Shepard (which you can completely ignore and continue romancing them with the opposite sex Shepard).  The reasons why people like Ashley, for example (her dedication to her family/The Alliance, her brashness, sense of humor, etc) won't change if she's now open to FemShep and no one around here thinks things like these examples that make the character interesting should change. 

Unless you feel one of the more interesting things about character X is that they are straight.

Some people do link sexuality with ones character/who they are so when someone says changing my character will ruin them they mean it.

The easiest way to see how society views character and sexuality is in high school you are grouped by what sex you like, what things you like, and what skills you choose to fallow those things all join to make someones character what it is. Take away or shift those you move that person into a new station or group. This change in group will effect how people view them some view the group change positively while others see it as less that person loses character and merit when they change groups.

The first thing kids want to find out about each other is if they like girls or boys, then they want to know what do you like, then they want to know what area of study you will undertake this determines your place in the world on a social and treatment scale proclaiming you're bi or gay changes your social standing and who people think you are you will lose people and you will gain people based off these characteristics. So saying changing a game characters preferences doesn't change their standing is false, it does. This person will be seen as losing merits to their character and standing to some and to others it will be seen as gaining character and standing.

From a player perspective I can see this to be true more or less, but from an in-game perspective I think we have to question the premise. This is a fictional universe that represents our future over 150 years from now. Compare modern-day attitudes to Civil-War-era attitudes, and we see a tremendous paradigm shift in attitudes across the board, and as you go back in history you see lots of changes in societal attitudes over the centuries. It would be unlikely, I think, for human society in 2183 to be as fixated on comparative sexuality as today's society is, especially in a social climate that includes aliens, and human romantic pairings with those aliens (most notably asari). Compared to having it off with an alien, simply having sex with a member of your own gender is kind of not a big deal, or at least I imagine by 2183 most of humanity would have long gotten over that hangup. So being gay or bisexual wouldn't have as dramatic an affect on a person's socialization, because it would carry less weight in social interaction. Humans do as their parents do, it's all cultural conditioning, and given what we know about the fictional ME universe, it seems like homosexuality and bisexuality are pretty much non-issues for "mainstream" society at least. That's my take, anyway. I just think we can't copy and paste our 2011 real-world social situation into the 2183-5 fictional Mass Effect society, we have to recognize a degree of change must have taken place, and much of the resource material seems to support this.

Just because its the future means nothing the future like the past will still have the same personal, economic, and social issues as today these things like war never change only the places do. Humans have struggled with the right and wrongs of sexuality, morality, rights, ways of making a living, ect  sense the dawn of time don't expect that to change.

[AngelicMachinery]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...
he statement "it is far more important that the personalities mesh over the plumbing" just isn't true.

Is it?  So,  as long as someone is young know a man or woman they are in fact completely compatible with you?  It doesn't matter if you find them dull,  agitating,  obnoxious, or just plain repugnant?  This is what relationships are based on,  you may of course prefer to see these traits in one sex or another but those traits are far more important than the sex alone.

I never said that sexuality was more important. I said that it is an equal factor. Personality is a key element to a fully-realized relationship, but so is sexual attraction and mutual commitment. They are equal, and it is simply not true or fair to say that one is more important than the other.

Say what you will about it,  but, truthfully what do you find more jarring the fact that characters will romance anyone of the opposite sex or they'll romance anyone without any interest in their personality?  The persona seems far more jarring to me than say Kaidan suddenly wanting to spend some time in Sheperd's quarters.

[AngelicMachinery]

Destroy Raiden wrote...



Just because its the future means nothing the future like the past will still have the same personal, economic, and social issues as today these things like war never change only the places do. Humans have struggled with the right and wrongs of sexuality, morality, rights, ways of making a living, ect  sense the dawn of time don't expect that to change.

I think your living in a rather sad place if you believe that people will still be judged on skintone,  sex,  and sexuality forever. 

[Psychotic Killer Cheeseburger]

that struggle doesn't have to change, but give us some leeway here, you can#t expect the world to be the sam in 150 years, and please, homosexuality is not that big a deal,
your whole highschool argument is flawed imo, because it merely concerns american students, you don't have that kind of grouping in other countries.
and it is really far more likel that relationships with aliens are frowned upon, but ******-/bisexual relationships aren't, because in this particular future, xenophobia has sort of replaced homophobia!!

[vorianxavier]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...
The statement "it is far more important that the personalities mesh over the plumbing" just isn't true.

Is it? So, as long as someone is young know a man or woman they are in  fact completely compatible with you?  It doesn't matter if you find them dull, agitating, obnoxious, or just plain repugnant?  This is what  relationships are based on,  you may of course prefer to see these  traits in one sex or another but those traits are far more important  than the sex alone.

I never said that sexuality was more important. I said that it is an equal factor. Personality is a key element to a fully-realized relationship, but so is sexual attraction and mutual commitment. They are equal, and it is simply not true or fair to say that one is more important than the other.

I feel like AngelicMachinery is talking about  compatible personalities being more important for a happy relationship than the biological sex of the parties, and KawaiiKatie is saying that sexual chemistry is important. In my view, that's two different issues that don't necessarily conflict with each other, but I think a good personality mesh can help with sexual chemistry.

Modifié par vorianxavier, 21 juin 2011 - 04:45 .

[KawaiiKatie]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Say what you will about it,  but, truthfully what do you find more jarring the fact that characters will romance anyone of the opposite sex or they'll romance anyone without any interest in their personality?  The persona seems far more jarring to me than say Kaidan suddenly wanting to spend some time in Sheperd's quarters.

I think that you should read my entire post. I eventually said:

However! I do think that I agree with your argument at it's core: the love-interests' infatuation with Shepard despite his/her actions, despite his/her conflicting personality, is confusing and, at times, jarring. Like sexual attraction, personalities must click for the relationship to flourish.

Personality is an extremely important part of any romantic relationship, but it is no more or less important than sexual attraction.

Perhaps you prioritize personality over sexuality when searching for a romatic partner. This is normal, and not in conflict with anything either of us have said. I merely took issue with the assertion that personality is always "more important" than sexual attraction, because in truth, both are required for a fully-realized romantic relationship.

I would find it just as "jarring" for Kaidan to enter a relationship with a Shepard whose personality doesn't allign with his (sexual attraction with no personal connection) than for Kaidan to enter a relationship with a Shepard whose sexuality didn't allign with his (personal attraction with no seuxal attraction.) Those are equally flawed relationships, and only furthers my point that sexual attraction is no more or less important than personality.

Modifié par KawaiiKatie, 21 juin 2011 - 04:54 .

[AngelicMachinery]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

Say what you will about it,  but, truthfully what do you find more jarring the fact that characters will romance anyone of the opposite sex or they'll romance anyone without any interest in their personality?  The persona seems far more jarring to me than say Kaidan suddenly wanting to spend some time in Sheperd's quarters.

I think that you should read my entire post. I eventually said:

However! I do think that I agree with your argument at it's core: the
love-interests' infatuation with Shepard despite his/her actions,
despite his/her conflicting personality, is confusing and, at times,
jarring. Like sexual attraction, personalities must click for the
relationship to flourish.

Personality is an extremely important
part of any romantic relationship, but it is no more or less important
than sexual attraction.

Perhaps you prioritize personality over sexuality when searching for a romatic partner. This is normal, and not in conflict with anything either of us have said. I merely took issue with the assertion that personality is always "more important" than sexual attraction, because in truth, both are required for a fully-realized romantic relationship.

I would find it just as "jarring" for Kaidan to enter a relationship with a Shepard whose personality doesn't allign with his (sexual attraction with no personal connection) than for Kaidan to enter a relationship with a Shepard whose sexuality didn't allign with his (personal attraction with no seuxal attraction.) Those are equally flawed relationships, and only furthers my point that sexual attraction is no more or less important than personality.

I never suggested that sexual attraction wasn't important,  I did say and will continue to say that a character's sex while important isn't quite as important as the personality they posess.  It is relatively easy finding a partner that meets one's prefered gender,  while I find that running into a meshing personality can be slightly more difficult.  As such,  I tend to believe it is a person's mental/emotional identity that really offers more to a person than their gender/sex.  

[KawaiiKatie]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I never suggested that sexual attraction wasn't important,  I did say and will continue to say that a character's sex while important isn't quite as important as the personality they posess.  It is relatively easy finding a partner that meets one's prefered gender,  while I find that running into a meshing personality can be slightly more difficult.  As such,  I tend to believe it is a person's mental/emotional identity that really offers more to a person than their gender/sex. 

Sexuality and sexual attraction is no more or less important than personal connection. They are equal.

[AngelicMachinery]

KawaiiKatie wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I never suggested that sexual attraction wasn't important,  I did say and will continue to say that a character's sex while important isn't quite as important as the personality they posess.  It is relatively easy finding a partner that meets one's prefered gender,  while I find that running into a meshing personality can be slightly more difficult.  As such,  I tend to believe it is a person's mental/emotional identity that really offers more to a person than their gender/sex. 

Sexuality and sexual attraction is no more or less important than personal connection. They are equal.

It's probably just better to agree to disagree here.  We won't change each others oppinion.

Though, if your thinking I'm saying sex doesn't matter you're wrong it is part of said formula but it's not really the key too a relationship it may help you in choosing a partner but the person themselves is what truly offers more to the relationship.

Modifié par AngelicMachinery, 21 juin 2011 - 05:04 .

[KawaiiKatie]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

KawaiiKatie wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

I never suggested that sexual attraction wasn't important,  I did say and will continue to say that a character's sex while important isn't quite as important as the personality they posess.  It is relatively easy finding a partner that meets one's prefered gender,  while I find that running into a meshing personality can be slightly more difficult.  As such,  I tend to believe it is a person's mental/emotional identity that really offers more to a person than their gender/sex. 

Sexuality and sexual attraction is no more or less important than personal connection. They are equal.

It's probably just better to agree to disagree here.  We won't change each others oppinion.

You won't agree to.... equality.

.....okay. Alright. We can disagree.