25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Daashi]

Carfax wrote...
Oh boy, here comes the "everyone is secretly a bit gay" crowd    

Too bad study after study shows that gays/bisexuals only account for a measly 4% of the human population..  With that said, I don't know how you people have managed to convince the World that there are much more of you than there really are.

Only 4% are gay or bi!? Then my class in high school must have been seriously out of porpotion!

[Templar Fox]

I mentioned this in the Tali thread, but I figured I might as well get this off my chest in the appropriate thread.

I'm bummed out that Tali is 99.999% going to be straight. I've been penning for her with my Fem Shepard since Mass Effect 1, and I seem to be in a minority about that - most people are satisfied with Liara or the prospect of Ash, but neither character I really grew attached to in that sense. Ash seemed boring, Liara was okay in the 1st and much improved by Lair of the Shadow Broker.

I know you can romance her as Male Shep, but since my first character was a nice black haired femme, it'll never feel right. Call it nit picking, but I'm going to be here mourning what never could be. ;(

[ElitePinecone]

Better not to feed the trolls, excellent FftL people. This particular one has posted here in the past.

Since we're never going to agree, it's better that the arguments never start. They only end in utterly pointless pages of back and forth debates.

[BrandNewMan]

It's funny, my friends (who are straight) think bisexuality is becoming a common thing. Like it's trendy or something. I'm the exact opposite and don't WANT it to be common. Or at least, I'm uncomfortable with the idea of people experimenting and trying to expand their own sexuality just because they admire the idea. Like it's a superior sexuality.

Modifié par BrandNewMan, 25 février 2012 - 11:38 .

[Jazinto]

Isn't there a third unknown squad mate? Perhaps the devs are actually treating us just like the other dudes and give us a super sexualized, powerful badass half-naked or in skintight armor, hah... Instead we're looking at yet another wounded, sensitive soldier, no matter if his name is Kaidan, Steve or James...

[ElitePinecone]

Luca Stern wrote...

Isn't there a third unknown squad mate? Perhaps the devs are actually treating us just like the other dudes and give us a super sexualized, powerful badass half-naked or in skintight armor, hah... Instead we're looking at yet another wounded, sensitive soldier, no matter if his name is Kaidan, Steve or James...

There might be a spare spot on the website, but in the actual game only two squadmates are 'secret'.

One of them was announced yesterday as the From Ashes squadmate. The other one isn't male...

So no, there aren't any other LIs incoming, unless there's a Normandy crewmember that nobody's ever heard of. 

[Jazinto]

I've found out those two by accident already... It's not really about another squadmate. I just wanted to get my point across how the boys of Mass Effect are lacking a badass, while the girls have plenty.

[ElitePinecone]

Luca Stern wrote...

I've found out those two by accident already... It's not really about another squadmate. I just wanted to get my point across how the boys of Mass Effect are lacking a badass, while the girls have plenty.

Oh, true.

I guess every m/m LI *has* been a sensitive soldier in one way or another. Even Vega, who people warmed to as 'not being like Zevran' has his own personal demons thing.

It's probably, in my opinion, because Bioware's characters are designed with their 'issue' to 'deal with' - it's just part of the writing process and the character. There needs to be a fixture for the conversations, a tormented thing in their life, and that lends itself to more sensitive characters rather than the caricature of Gears-esque marines that run around roaring and ripping heads off. If they had no tortured history, the way Bioware constructs the character arcs sorta falls down. 

The last time they tried to do a character with no major problems to deal with, they got Jacob. He was totally fine about his father, he'd moved on years back, and the badass thing didn't work because he was such an affable person.  

I mean, even Zaeed's badassery is done with a nod and a wink, we all know it's ridiculous and played for laughs. 

[Olive Oomph]

yeah! numbers don't lie!

[Knight of Normandy]

ToastPants wrote...

Actually, we've done a stellar job of convincing the world there so many less of us than there really are.

It'll make the hostile takeover THAT MUCH EASIER. Don't tell anyone.

Coming this Summer:

ATTACK OF THE 50 MILLION HOMOSEXUALS!

Sorry, but I had too. Anyway, I just really hope that bioware doesn't just start making characters gay for the sake of fan service. Your sexual orientation is apart of who you are. It's just another thing that defines you as a person. If they want to make believable characters then they need to set what their sexual orientation is in stone. I can understand Kaiden and Ashley being Bi since there were hints in first game that they had feelings towards your character no matter your gender. But making characters like Miranda or Tali gay or Bi just feels to me like they are trying to please everyone. In real life you are going to have people you are attracted to yet you can't date. I once knew this amazing chick. Smart, funny, and incredibly beatiful. What I wouldn't have give to go out with her. But, alas, she was lesbian. I want those kinds of things in Mass Effect. It makes me care about the characters more if they feel like real people.

On another note, I hope that Kaiden or one of the new male characters hits on my MShep. Just because that conversation would be so hilariously awkward.

[bleetman]

Olive Oomph wrote...

yeah! numbers don't lie!

I feel so bad for my gender right now. Apparently there needs to be college courses on how to satisfy women.

Modifié par bleetman, 25 février 2012 - 01:27 .

[Criz]

bleetman wrote...

Olive Oomph wrote...

yeah! numbers don't lie!

I feel so bad for my gender right now. Apparently there needs to be college courses on how to satisfy women.

if those numbers are any indication those courses should be booked by men
or wait is that what you implied? I have no clue what sex you are thus which sex you felt bad for and it could be interpreted either way

[LiaraShepard]

Luca Stern wrote...

I've found out those two by accident already... It's not really about another squadmate. I just wanted to get my point across how the boys of Mass Effect are lacking a badass, while the girls have plenty.

well, the main girls in bioware games are more badass in general than their male counterparts. Just compare bastila with carth, morrigan with alistair, kaidan with ashley and jacob with miranda. it's because the stories are written for the straight male gamer who doesn't want another man to be more badass than himself. but of course the straight male gamer wants a female who's powerful, mighty, clever and badass, because it gives him the feeling of getting the best woman of all. since she's from the other gender she's not a rival as another man would be. and of course, the devs who are certainly most males also prefer strong and meaningful women who are a challenge. so, the girls get plenty of badass females because they have the luck of liking the same gender as the straight gamers do.  I don't believe in coincidences. if there's a badass male he has a minor role like Zaeed or isn't someone to romance.

I think Bioware needs a game where the characters act the other way around. A sensitive main female and a badass male. at least there would be a little more variety then.

Modifié par LiaraShepard, 25 février 2012 - 02:51 .

[SolidBeast]

devSin wrote...
POUR IT ON!

Your despair is infectious.

I love it!

Anyway, serves you guys right for chasing spoilers.

What the hell are you talking about?
VS. Being. Bi. Is. Not. A. Spoiler.


Also, my Shepard is all the badassery my game needs.
Not that I'm against badasses, but a) there are none, Shepard is badass enough for all of them.

Modifié par SolidBeast, 25 février 2012 - 02:29 .

[ElitePinecone]

LiaraShepard wrote...
snip

I'd have to strongly disagree with the idea that female main characters in Bioware's games are written as strong and capable warriors just to please this mythical demographic of straight males. I think it does a disservice to the writers, for starters. I think it grossly misidentifies 'strong female characters for their own sake' as 'strong female characters to please men, because it's a challenge, and because the lead men have to be buffoons'. 

Bioware's writers have written strong, capable and 'badass' women because they a) like writing them and generally like to write strong female characters rather than have them as sexytimes-sidekicks or damsels in distress. 

Someone once said that the Dragon Age games were anachronistic (i.e. the content of them didn't fit the apparent medieval time period) because women were knights and warriors with equal inheritance and ruling rights, homosexuality was tolerated and seen openly, the streets weren't full of poverty and misery/disease, etc. 

If I remember correctly, David Gaider responded that Bioware had deliberately chosen to imbue Thedas with a quasi-Canadian injection of modernity and contemporary sexual politics and gender relations, because they explicitly didn't want to write a historical simulation where all the worst kinds of inequity would pop up on a regular basis. Bioware deliberately write fantasy games that subvert all the gender conventions of the genre, and they've explained that it's because writing strong female characters (and including non-heterosexual characters, while we're at it) is something they want to do. 

Bastila and Morrigan and Leliana and Isabela and Ashley and Miranda and Aveline and Ser Cauthrien and Wynne and Shale (Shale!) and the asari (as diplomats, warriors, philosophers, leaders) and Satele Shan and femShep and femHawke and Grand Cleric Elthina and Ser Merideth (briefly) aren't powerful, influential and capable female characters because in some executive's head they were cooked up to appeal to some apparent male desire to conquer things (which, in itself, is a gross generalisation), nor were they designed as foils to ego-boosting, impotent male sidekicks.

They're effective leaders, warriors, generals, counselors and companions who just happen to be female. There's no 'hidden agenda' that relative gender power roles makes the developers feel important. 

I'm not saying there's no straight-male pandering in Bioware's games, because that would be stretching credibility. Yes, it's there. It's often pretty frustrating. 

But saying that *all* of the strong female leads are powerful to stroke male egos, and all of the sensitive male leads are non-threatening to assuage alpha-male dudebros, is in my opinion grossly misunderstanding the intention of the developers. There are a bazillion games out there that feature no non-token female characters, that throw what female characters they do have into caricatures of timidity or distress, or feature female characters solely as a romantic foil for the protagonist-player. Bioware go out of their way to be gender, race and (for the most part) sexuality-blind in their games. It's utterly unremarkable that half the Alliance military board is female, that Ser Aveline runs the Kirkwall city guard, that Ser Cauthrien is Ferelden's Champion, that Bastila commands fleets, that femShep is Earth's most powerful and capable warrior, or that Ashley serves openly on the frontlines of battle, and survives when her entire unit was wiped out.

Look at the responses when someone complains about the 'unreality' of a female commander, or a female soldier. It's not even a topic for debate. To say Bioware aren't an enlightened studio in a sometimes egregiously backwards industry is just not true. 

Aaryn Flynn, Bioware's general manager for their Edmonton studio (home of DA and ME) tweeted this near the release of the femShep trailer (he also stood up against a writer's misogynistic abuse, which was *awesome*):


"Bizarre to read this on #FemShepFriday" 
http://www.npr.org/b...ays?sc=fb&cc=fp 

Point being: even the managers of the studio are deeply supportive of things like women in combat. I've said it before, but Bioware are practically *defined* by the fact that they make games for a wider fanbase than gun-happy heterosexual teenage males. Without making comparisons to a cabal, it's almost a point of crusading pride that they make games that can be enjoyed and appreciated by women and non-heterosexual people who can see themselves as strong characters in these detailed universes. 

If you're not convinced about the sincere motives of the Dragon Age team I'd be happy to hunt down some of Gaider's responses. Luke K, who wrote Aveline, might've also replied to a couple of threads here and there.

I'd suggest reading Patrick Weekes' blog posts on this. 

http://pats-quinade....com/229049.html 

and then 
http://pats-quinade....com/229174.html 

I'd tweet him myself, but I think he blocked me for mentioning Steve. 

[LiaraShepard]

well, when all main female characters are badass and no male counterpart acts it in the same way, then it's quite obvious that the devs and writers prefer females over males. unfortunately, the females are still sex bombs. of course they can fight for themselves, but it's still very superficial and tries to belie their sexual impression towards the straight male gamers. a really strong female character could be sensitive as well, but without having big boobs and sexy clothes and an arrogant or superior behavior to compensate something. she could be still very independent. I don't have a problem with sexy badass main females, but the problem is, they act nearly always this way, whereas the main male counterparts are always sensitive and seek someone who quide them.  the problem is thet the roles are never the other way around. sorry, I'm not good in speaking English. but I think it's not fair to give male gamers strong females who are in a good position and females and gay male gamers get always(!) characters who are supportive and try to find a sense in life. not that I have a problem with guys who have intensive feelings and a sensitive behavior, but when itÄ's always the same it's quite boring and predictable.

Modifié par LiaraShepard, 25 février 2012 - 03:41 .

[Tobitto]

Stop feeding the trolls, are you really going to fall for their bs? Just ignore them...

Modifié par Tobitto, 25 février 2012 - 03:42 .

[LiaraShepard]

Tobitto wrote...

Stop feeding the trolls, are you really going to fall for their bs? Just ignore them...

are you talking about me? o.O I just mention my opinion. that's really not a crime. if you think so, you're a troll.

[SolidBeast]

I want to wipe the word "troll" from existence...

[Tobitto]

LiaraShepard wrote...

Tobitto wrote...

Stop feeding the trolls, are you really going to fall for their bs? Just ignore them...

are you talking about me? o.O I just mention my opinion. that's really not a crime. if you think so, you're a troll.

Not you in particular im just getting paranoind cause some people are making a bunch of treads and posting here just to get a reaction. im telling the members to ignore anyone whos just looking for a fight, its not worth it 


And if that dosent apply to you sorry 

[LiaraShepard]

okay, then sorry. I thought you were talking about me. ... see, I don't have a problem with strong female characters. and I'm glad there are some of them in the game industry. that's really a step in the right direction. And as for myself, I even don't care if they're sexy or not. They can be sexy and strong. That's okay and better than just being sexy but with a weak personality. I just think there are too much mirandas and morrigans out there while there's no mirando or morrigano. xD of course, these characters are interesting and a challenge and it's good to see that they're not only sexy but also independent and know what they want. I think my problem isn't that females could be suppressed and being considered as a male gamers fantasy (although this might be the case as well, even if they are designed to be strong to make a step towards equality)...but how can equality be reached when now male characters are weak and dependent. okay, I know it's a bit drastically to say it this way. But as for me, I'm a girl and as most girl I like men who know what they want. who are clever, smart, idnependent... those guys might not always be the best choice, but one cannot lie that a lot of girls do want them. so why not making one of them available in future games? that's the only thing I'm asking for. I don't want weak females. on the contrary, I love strong female characters... hopefully, you understand what I mean.

[LukaCrosszeria]

SolidBeast wrote...

I want to wipe the word "troll" from existence...

Seconded. I'm starting to hate that word, people use it way too liberally.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

SolidBeast wrote...

I want to wipe the word "troll" from existence...

Yeah, I'm getting entirely confused as to what constitutes a 'troll'.

[SolidBeast]

LiaraShepard wrote...

But as for me, I'm a girl and as most girl I like men who know what they want. who are clever, smart, idnependent... those guys might not always be the best choice, but one cannot lie that a lot of girls do want them. so why not making one of them available in future games? that's the only thing I'm asking for. I don't want weak females. on the contrary, I love strong female characters... hopefully, you understand what I mean.

How is Kaidan not one of those guys? Or Thane? Or Jacob, for that matter? 
I don't see these "weak" males you speak of. Unless we're talking Conrad Verner.

LukaCrosszeria wrote...

SolidBeast wrote...

I want to wipe the word "troll" from existence...

Seconded. I'm starting to hate that word, people use it way too liberally.

Also, whining. That's probably everyone's second favorite on these forums.

[Hillbillyhat]

LiaraShepard wrote...

well, when all main female characters are badass and no male counterpart acts it in the same way, then it's quite obvious that the devs and writers prefer females over males. unfortunately, the females are still sex bombs. of course they can fight for themselves, but it's still very superficial and tries to belie their sexual impression towards the straight male gamers. a really strong female character could be sensitive as well, but without having big boobs and sexy clothes and an arrogant or superior behavior to compensate something. she could be still very independent. I don't have a problem with sexy badass main females, but the problem is, they act nearly always this way, whereas the main male counterparts are always sensitive and seek someone who quide them.  the problem is thet the roles are never the other way around. sorry, I'm not good in speaking English. but I think it's not fair to give male gamers strong females who are in a good position and females and gay male gamers get always(!) characters who are supportive and try to find a sense in life. not that I have a problem with guys who have intensive feelings and a sensitive behavior, but when itÄ's always the same it's quite boring and predictable.

Sorry just jumped into this thread looking at posts and this one was rather confusing. Well not cofusing but it seems like you would like to replace one form of sexism for another.

Also the female and sometimes gay gamers get some good romance characters. Plus your definition of strong may not be the same as others at all. Hell Kaidan can easily be seen as a more stronger character than Ashley at times. He actually went through soo much **** as a teen due to Biotics and even killed someone at a early age, but it doesn't haunt so badly that he whines over it. It actually gives him a positive view point on the alien races. Miranda can be seen as strong but obviously has multiple issues that she hasn't entirely dealt with (mostly with her father) you have to explore that and learn she isn't always the strong and sometimes cold Miranda.

Not all the straight female love interests aren't in good positions. Some are even in the worst position possible and masks their weakness with power.

I will admit though that Anders and Fenris as love interests were annoying as hell.