25715 réponses à ce sujet

[LiaraShepard]

well, it's difficult to explain. I always get the feeling that they search someone to guide them. I think there are are other people out there who can explain it better. Just compare miranda and jacob. miranda is sooo intelligent and direct and she always seems to be right, just as morrigan from dragon age origins. jacob doesn't have something important to say. he's just there, helping female shepard. well, I don't know how to say. kaidan's also there from the beginning. he's a bit shy and supportive. but not really badass... :/ I can't believe I'm the only one who feels so. really...just think about the characters and you'll make out the difference between a carth and a bastilla, an alistair and a morrigan, a jacob and a miranda and a kaidan and an ash.

[Tobitto]

LiaraShepard wrote...

okay, then sorry. I thought you were talking about me. ... see, I don't have a problem with strong female characters. and I'm glad there are some of them in the game industry. that's really a step in the right direction. And as for myself, I even don't care if they're sexy or not. They can be sexy and strong. That's okay and better than just being sexy but with a weak personality. I just think there are too much mirandas and morrigans out there while there's no mirando or morrigano. xD of course, these characters are interesting and a challenge and it's good to see that they're not only sexy but also independent and know what they want. I think my problem isn't that females could be suppressed and being considered as a male gamers fantasy (although this might be the case as well, even if they are designed to be strong to make a step towards equality)...but how can equality be reached when now male characters are weak and dependent. okay, I know it's a bit drastically to say it this way. But as for me, I'm a girl and as most girl I like men who know what they want. who are clever, smart, idnependent... those guys might not always be the best choice, but one cannot lie that a lot of girls do want them. so why not making one of them available in future games? that's the only thing I'm asking for. I don't want weak females. on the contrary, I love strong female characters... hopefully, you understand what I mean.

Oh i understand you completely, i'm not a fan of the "Kaidan is BI" thing in ME3, I was pretty happy with just Cortez and maybe Vega (tho im ok with him being straight only too)

[LiaraShepard]

Hillbillyhat wrote...

LiaraShepard wrote...

well, when all main female characters are badass and no male counterpart acts it in the same way, then it's quite obvious that the devs and writers prefer females over males. unfortunately, the females are still sex bombs. of course they can fight for themselves, but it's still very superficial and tries to belie their sexual impression towards the straight male gamers. a really strong female character could be sensitive as well, but without having big boobs and sexy clothes and an arrogant or superior behavior to compensate something. she could be still very independent. I don't have a problem with sexy badass main females, but the problem is, they act nearly always this way, whereas the main male counterparts are always sensitive and seek someone who quide them.  the problem is thet the roles are never the other way around. sorry, I'm not good in speaking English. but I think it's not fair to give male gamers strong females who are in a good position and females and gay male gamers get always(!) characters who are supportive and try to find a sense in life. not that I have a problem with guys who have intensive feelings and a sensitive behavior, but when itÄ's always the same it's quite boring and predictable.

Sorry just jumped into this thread looking at posts and this one was rather confusing. Well not cofusing but it seems like you would like to replace one form of sexism for another.

Also the female and sometimes gay gamers get some good romance characters. Plus your definition of strong may not be the same as others at all. Hell Kaidan can easily be seen as a more stronger character than Ashley at times. He actually went through soo much **** as a teen due to Biotics and even killed someone at a early age, but it doesn't haunt so badly that he whines over it. It actually gives him a positive view point on the alien races. Miranda can be seen as strong but obviously has multiple issues that she hasn't entirely dealt with (mostly with her father) you have to explore that and learn she isn't always the strong and sometimes cold Miranda.

Not all the straight female love interests aren't in good positions. Some are even in the worst position possible and masks their weakness with power.

I will admit though that Anders and Fenris as love interests were annoying as hell.

Sorry, but I don't think you understood what I wanted to say.

[ElitePinecone]

LiaraShepard wrote...
I don't want weak females. on the contrary, I love strong female characters... hopefully, you understand what I mean.

When you put it that way, then yeah I agree. There's probably an argument to be made that a lot of Bioware's male lead characters are broken sensitive types with no initiative who get railroaded over by all the powerful female characters - though that might be pushing the language a bit. 

I've definitely noticed a lot of people asking for more assertive male characters, who are badass and strong and able to do something other than look foolish. 

I think it'd be awesome if future characters were more like that - smart, independant, powerful, and don't need to rely on the protagonist for support or comfort. It's arguably a weaker point in Bioware's characterisation. 

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying - I just get frustrated when people try to paint strong female characters like Aveline, Ashley or Bastila (or Samara, how could I forget Samara) as sex objects to be conquered by the male ego. It's entirely not what Bioware were intending, if you read anything they write, and I think it'd be a little hurtful if anyone ever seriously argued the writers were being sexist. If that was an interpretation, it wasn't intentional.

Maybe in an ideal world we'd have strong female and male characters, who are assertive in their dealings with the player-protagonist, and who don't need a hug every five seconds to keep on going. It's definitely a criticism I've heard of some of the writing, and it'd be nice if in the future we got something a little different. 

[LiaraShepard]

Tobitto wrote...

LiaraShepard wrote...

okay, then sorry. I thought you were talking about me. ... see, I don't have a problem with strong female characters. and I'm glad there are some of them in the game industry. that's really a step in the right direction. And as for myself, I even don't care if they're sexy or not. They can be sexy and strong. That's okay and better than just being sexy but with a weak personality. I just think there are too much mirandas and morrigans out there while there's no mirando or morrigano. xD of course, these characters are interesting and a challenge and it's good to see that they're not only sexy but also independent and know what they want. I think my problem isn't that females could be suppressed and being considered as a male gamers fantasy (although this might be the case as well, even if they are designed to be strong to make a step towards equality)...but how can equality be reached when now male characters are weak and dependent. okay, I know it's a bit drastically to say it this way. But as for me, I'm a girl and as most girl I like men who know what they want. who are clever, smart, idnependent... those guys might not always be the best choice, but one cannot lie that a lot of girls do want them. so why not making one of them available in future games? that's the only thing I'm asking for. I don't want weak females. on the contrary, I love strong female characters... hopefully, you understand what I mean.

Oh i understand you completely, i'm not a fan of the "Kaidan is BI" thing in ME3, I was pretty happy with just Cortez and maybe Vega (tho im ok with him being straight only too)

I don't have a problem with him being bi. I have a problem that there's always the same writing style. female characters are badass and intelligent and male characters are sensitive and supportive.

[LiaraShepard]

ElitePinecone wrote...

snip

yes, that's what I wanted to say. sorry, I'm not always good in finding the right words. But I'm glad you understand what I mean.

Modifié par LiaraShepard, 25 février 2012 - 04:27 .

[Tobitto]

LiaraShepard wrote...


I don't have a problem with him being bi. I have a problem that there's always the same writing style. female characters are badass and intelligent and male characters are sensitive and supportive.

I get it, and i agree 100% with you, indecisiveness is not atractive at all , what would you do if your boyfriend of 2 years suddenly told he liked another gender lol. I would be pissed 

It would be better if he was bi all along, this system makes him (and ashley) look kinda dishonest...

[Sylvianus]

...Tali ? Merril ? Liara ? Leliana ? Bethany ? aren't supportive and sensitive ?

Fenris ? Anders ? Carver ? aren't strong and independent ?

[Hillbillyhat]

LiaraShepard wrote...

well, it's difficult to explain. I always get the feeling that they search someone to guide them. I think there are are other people out there who can explain it better. Just compare miranda and jacob. miranda is sooo intelligent and direct and she always seems to be right, just as morrigan from dragon age origins. jacob doesn't have something important to say. he's just there, helping female shepard. well, I don't know how to say. kaidan's also there from the beginning. he's a bit shy and supportive. but not really badass... :/ I can't believe I'm the only one who feels so. really...just think about the characters and you'll make out the difference between a carth and a bastilla, an alistair and a morrigan, a jacob and a miranda and a kaidan and an ash.

You kind of skip over the badass male characters and also how is Kaidan any more supportive than Ash or any other party member? Seriously Kaidan is special forces has experience and is a great biotic user. Ashley is a grunt. A badass grunt with attitude but still a grunt. Honestly Kaidan kind of grew on me eventually since there was nothing really wrong with him. Other than the fact that he didn't have something to rage about (which really isn't a fault) he was basically a well rounded guy who dealt with his crap.

[Hillbillyhat]

LiaraShepard wrote...
Sorry, but I don't think you understood what I wanted to say.

Then explain.

[Hillbillyhat]

Sylvianus wrote...

...Tali ? Merril ? Liara ? Leliana ? Bethany ? aren't supportive and sensitive ?

Fenris ? Anders ? Carver ? aren't strong and independent ?

To be fair Carver and Bethany aren't love interests.

[SolidBeast]

LiaraShepard wrote...

well, it's difficult to explain. I always get the feeling that they search someone to guide them. I think there are are other people out there who can explain it better. Just compare miranda and jacob. miranda is sooo intelligent and direct and she always seems to be right, just as morrigan from dragon age origins. jacob doesn't have something important to say. he's just there, helping female shepard. well, I don't know how to say. kaidan's also there from the beginning. he's a bit shy and supportive. but not really badass... :/ I can't believe I'm the only one who feels so. really...just think about the characters and you'll make out the difference between a carth and a bastilla, an alistair and a morrigan, a jacob and a miranda and a kaidan and an ash.

Doesn't Miranda need Shepard's help and reassurance as well? On the other hand, Jacob will tell femShep to back off if she tries to act like she wants to guide him. I think that's a good aspect of his character. He deals with his own emotional issues.
What's your definition of a badass anyway? Is killing a turian bare-handed as a kid not "badass"? Or overcoming the hardships of BAaT in the first place? If all you see is someone who is "shy", then I'm afraid you lack the understanding of the character.
Personally, characters that try too hard to be badasses fall short of the mark in my opinion.

[LiaraShepard]

Hillbillyhat wrote...

LiaraShepard wrote...

well, it's difficult to explain. I always get the feeling that they search someone to guide them. I think there are are other people out there who can explain it better. Just compare miranda and jacob. miranda is sooo intelligent and direct and she always seems to be right, just as morrigan from dragon age origins. jacob doesn't have something important to say. he's just there, helping female shepard. well, I don't know how to say. kaidan's also there from the beginning. he's a bit shy and supportive. but not really badass... :/ I can't believe I'm the only one who feels so. really...just think about the characters and you'll make out the difference between a carth and a bastilla, an alistair and a morrigan, a jacob and a miranda and a kaidan and an ash.

You kind of skip over the badass male characters and also how is Kaidan any more supportive than Ash or any other party member? Seriously Kaidan is special forces has experience and is a great biotic user. Ashley is a grunt. A badass grunt with attitude but still a grunt. Honestly Kaidan kind of grew on me eventually since there was nothing really wrong with him. Other than the fact that he didn't have something to rage about (which really isn't a fault) he was basically a well rounded guy who dealt with his crap.

I don't say Kaidan is useless. I just say, he's not badass. even if he's strong he's still more shy and well, reserved. but of course, he's not a worse soldier than ashley. Never wanted to say that. ashley isn't better than kaidan, she's just more assertive.

[LiaraShepard]

SolidBeast wrote...

snip

I don't have a full definition. but miranda and morrigan are so intelligent, they are designed to be perfect in some way. morrigan is a strong magiacan, she knows more than other people about the world and she's so clever and smart, just like miranda who always seem to have the right solution. but badass can also mean a person is quite assertive just like ashley from mass effect 1. I always have the feeling the guys are lacking this kind of personality. but I don't want to say jacob or alistair are stupid, they're just not as intuitive intelligent as morrigan or miranda.

Modifié par LiaraShepard, 25 février 2012 - 04:45 .

[ElitePinecone]

Tobitto wrote...

LiaraShepard wrote...


I don't have a problem with him being bi. I have a problem that there's always the same writing style. female characters are badass and intelligent and male characters are sensitive and supportive.

I get it, and i agree 100% with you, indecisiveness is not atractive at all , what would you do if your boyfriend of 2 years suddenly told he liked another gender lol. I would be pissed 

It would be better if he was bi all along, this system makes him (and ashley) look kinda dishonest...

It'll never come up in a universe in which femShep exists, though. 

If we're taking the "imagine you are femShep" argument, then... imagine you're femShep.

Nothing Kaidan says in ME3 gives any hint of him liking the same sex. It's not exactly dishonest if he never mentions it. She'd never even know - a wilder interpretation would be that it's maleShep, in cofirming a mutual attraction, that solidifies whatever Kaidan was feeling in the first place.

As for "being bi all along", the dialogue makes it really clear that the VS *was* bi all along - they saw Shepard after Eden Prime in the events of ME, had conflicted feelings, the Collector attack and Horizon happened, and now they're teaming up to fight the Reapers. It was some kind of attraction - call it bisexuality if you want, or just uncertainty or ambiguity - that they finally felt ready to say.

Finally, I can't see the relevance if the VS is bisexual. Kaidan is very clearly devoted to femShep, as much as he's (newly) devoted to maleShep is the player makes that advance. 

It's a bit... frustrating, that it's seen as making the character lesser, or changed, just because of a potentiality in another universe.  

[Hillbillyhat]

LiaraShepard wrote...
I don't say Kaidan is useless. I just say, he's not badass. even if he's strong he's still more shy and well, reserved. but of course, he's not a worse soldier than ashley. Never wanted to say that. ashley isn't better than kaidan, she's just more assertive.

He's technically more badass than Ash its just that Ash has more attitude. None of them are really assertive at all in comparison to Shepard the commanding officer. I'm not even sure if Kaidan is any more shy than Ash anyway.

[LiaraShepard]

Hillbillyhat wrote...

LiaraShepard wrote...
I don't say Kaidan is useless. I just say, he's not badass. even if he's strong he's still more shy and well, reserved. but of course, he's not a worse soldier than ashley. Never wanted to say that. ashley isn't better than kaidan, she's just more assertive.

He's technically more badass than Ash its just that Ash has more attitude. None of them are really assertive at all in comparison to Shepard the commanding officer. I'm not even sure if Kaidan is any more shy than Ash anyway.

I don't know why, but I'm actually quite sure there's always a difference between bioware's male and female characters though I'm not able to express it in a good way. elite did say it in a good way though. there are so many people who recognize it. it can't be pure imagination.

[Knightly_BW]

ElitePinecone wrote...

LiaraShepard wrote...
I don't want weak females. on the contrary, I love strong female characters... hopefully, you understand what I mean.

When you put it that way, then yeah I agree. There's probably an argument to be made that a lot of Bioware's male lead characters are broken sensitive types with no initiative who get railroaded over by all the powerful female characters - though that might be pushing the language a bit. 

I've definitely noticed a lot of people asking for more assertive male characters, who are badass and strong and able to do something other than look foolish. 

I think it'd be awesome if future characters were more like that - smart, independant, powerful, and don't need to rely on the protagonist for support or comfort. It's arguably a weaker point in Bioware's characterisation. 

Sorry if I misinterpreted what you were saying - I just get frustrated when people try to paint strong female characters like Aveline, Ashley or Bastila (or Samara, how could I forget Samara) as sex objects to be conquered by the male ego. It's entirely not what Bioware were intending, if you read anything they write, and I think it'd be a little hurtful if anyone ever seriously argued the writers were being sexist. If that was an interpretation, it wasn't intentional.

Maybe in an ideal world we'd have strong female and male characters, who are assertive in their dealings with the player-protagonist, and who don't need a hug every five seconds to keep on going. It's definitely a criticism I've heard of some of the writing, and it'd be nice if in the future we got something a little different. 

Maybe it is just me but not all female "badass" characters were strong.

Morrigan underneath her cold witch facade she is a lonely girl, abused greatly by Flemeth and doesn't accustomed with human emotions. She knews that. Regret that when someone spent enough effort and time to reach real Morrigan inside.

Miranda is cocky but she is dealing with "designed to be perfect" issue. She know she designed to be perfect and everyone expects it from her but she is not. She doesn't want be a machine yet also don't want to be weak.

Jack created as a murderer. Cost of creating her weights heavily on her. She forced to do things she didn't want to do. She must act all badass and has power to do it however she is actually a mess.

In some sense all of them weaker than lovely girl Leliana, headstrong Wyne or whinny Tali. Isabela also closer to that archtype while Merrill is complete opposite. Also we saw where Aveline's insecurities lie, Long Road really my favorite arch on whole DA2.

Yeah maybe those characters are expected however I love that "cliché". Infact those whiny naive girls(Tali, Merrill)  get on my nerves. They expect Main Character to do everything for them.

This creates a nice diversity (look those support groups, banners and all about nearly each character of Bioware games). So why give up that good thing?

Of course all of those are my opinion.

Modifié par Asperius, 25 février 2012 - 04:55 .

[MissOuJ]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Nothing Kaidan says in ME3 gives any hint of him liking the same sex. It's not exactly dishonest if he never mentions it. She'd never even know - a wilder interpretation would be that it's maleShep, in cofirming a mutual attraction, that solidifies whatever Kaidan was feeling in the first place.

As for "being bi all along", the dialogue makes it really clear that the VS *was* bi all along - they saw Shepard after Eden Prime in the events of ME, had conflicted feelings, the Collector attack and Horizon happened, and now they're teaming up to fight the Reapers. It was some kind of attraction - call it bisexuality if you want, or just uncertainty or ambiguity - that they finally felt ready to say.

Finally, I can't see the relevance if the VS is bisexual. Kaidan is very clearly devoted to femShep, as much as he's (newly) devoted to maleShep is the player makes that advance. 

It's a bit... frustrating, that it's seen as making the character lesser, or changed, just because of a potentiality in another universe.  

Exactly, you've put it perfectly. Thank you.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 25 février 2012 - 04:56 .

[SolidBeast]

LiaraShepard wrote...

SolidBeast wrote...

snip

I don't have a full definition. but miranda and morrigan are so intelligent, they are designed to be perfect in some way. morrigan is a strong magiacan, she knows more than other people about the world and she's so clever and smart, just like miranda who always seem to have the right solution. but badass can also mean a person is quite assertive just like ashley from mass effect 1. I always have the feeling the guys are lacking this kind of personality. but I don't want to say jacob or alistair are stupid, they're just not as intuitive intelligent as morrigan or miranda.

I don't know, it sounds to me like you're emphasizing certain aspects of some characters, while disregarding the same in others.
Obviously, to you, assertiveness constitutes badassery. I don't consider Ashley a badass, I find her assertivness annoying, just like I find my own assertiveness annoying as hell and lacking in self-control. That's what I admire about Kaidan, he's powerful, but collected and doesn't need to go around threatening people around or being pushy like I do to prove something.
So, obviously, YMMV, but don't go around saying that badass males aren't in the game period just because they're not badass enough to you.

Modifié par SolidBeast, 25 février 2012 - 04:55 .

[LiaraShepard]

@Asperius

that's right what you say about miranda and morrigan. but it just makes them more complex I think. I want only one man who's like them and I totally prefer him with a rough exterior and who's created to be perfect but with a deep wound.

[LiaraShepard]

SolidBeast wrote...

snip

my problem's just that it's always the same writing style. why always mirandas and morrigans but never mirandos and morriganos? It's the "always and never" part that I have problems with...not the rest

though I confess the characters in DA2 were really good handled.

Modifié par LiaraShepard, 25 février 2012 - 05:04 .

[SolidBeast]

Because there's a ****load of those in other games already.
"I never asked for this..."
"By the gods, what have I become?"

Also, Mass Effect has wiped-out-a-third-of-Omega-plagued-by-guilt Garrus and survived-a-bullet-to-the-face-rage-is-a-hell-of-an-anesthetic Zaeed. Oh wait, they're not superhot.
DA2 - ripping-templars'-heads-off-with-bare-hands-I-am-the-revolution Anders. Oh wait, he likes kittens.

Can't please everyone.

[Collider]

Aren't Garrus and Thane commonly thought to be "badass"?

[LiaraShepard]

well, I have my opinion, you have yours. that's okay.

@collider from my first post on, I was talking about the main male and female characters. the ones with the biggest story plot and who you meet at the beginning of the game.

I know now that I'm the only one who feels this way. still, I know that there's a difference in writing style. I wonder why you can't make it out too. but well, it's just my personal opinion.

Modifié par LiaraShepard, 25 février 2012 - 05:18 .