25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Espurr]

Can we all stop assuming to know what the writers intended? We don't know how things were pitched, how many times things were changed during the writing process, whether things were intended to be definitively one way or deliberately left open to interperetation. For all we know, the writers could have their own head canons that weren't fully detailed in the game for whatever reason (executive decision, to leave things more open, to facilitate a plot point, whatever). But the point is: we are never going to know (unless they decide to tell us, which they probably won't).

It's fine that everyone has their own headcanons for characters and everyone sees them differently, but I don't think anyone can claim they really know what the writers' headcanons are.

EDIT: lol re-reading that comes off a little more grumpy than I intended. I just think it's a little silly is all

Modifié par ToastPants, 25 février 2012 - 10:50 .

[Nynaeve]

Arik7 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
No, it's the writers believing the fanbase is smart enough to take a hint, or several.

What hints about Ashley's sexuality were presented to me in my game?

She never yelled out "I'm a lesbian!" from the rooftops, so she must be straight.

Aaaah, that clears that up then...finally!

[Akrim_Drak]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I can see the case being made for Kaiden in a convincing way. He's more of a shy or quiet character. It's not all up front with him. For Ash, it's not going to be that convincing no matter what they do because of who Ash is. She's very upfront and very opinionated. She's a lot like Aveline in DA2. Strong, upfront, no bull****. That's Ashley.

With that in mind, one would think if the subject was every brought up Ashley would simply tell Shepard she isn't into other women, and that would be that. The subject never did come up, but based on what I know about her character, I think that would be the response.

Funny you feel that way about Kaidan because he DOES mention a girl he liked back in "brain camp." I do agree that Ashley is more assertive though but that again is what you imagine the response would be. Others could think she'd just have a rather awkward "I'm not interested in you like that," and you can't really call them "wrong" since it could be true as well. However a few years later she very well could realize that yes, she is actually interested in her like that. That's the brilliance of the game! I think we're just all so passionate about it that it's hard to talk about opposing views with other people.

Edit: Toast none of us are really arguing. Just having a conversation. I like learning how other people feel(maturely, not like certain people act...)

Modifié par Akrim_Drak, 25 février 2012 - 10:54 .

[Sherbet Lemon]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I can see the case being made for Kaiden in a convincing way. He's more of a shy or quiet character. It's not all up front with him. For Ash, it's not going to be that convincing no matter what they do because of who Ash is. She's very upfront and very opinionated. She's a lot like Aveline in DA2. Strong, upfront, no bull****. That's Ashley.

With that in mind, one would think if the subject was every brought up Ashley would simply tell Shepard she isn't into other women, and that would be that. The subject never did come up, but based on what I know about her character, I think that would be the response.

But this is not universal.  The key phrasing in your discussion of her character is that you think this way and that is your estimation of her character.  I may have a different view.  You can provide evidence and I can disagree with that evidence (and vice versa), but neither will be considered fact because they are, in essence, ultimately based upon your perception.  

Also,  blunt, "up front" people have insecurities and fears.  This is what makes for nuanced characterization.  Three dimensional characters reveal themselves in layers as real humans and do not hold steadfastly to one character trait.  That sort of solitary representation of character is the very embodiment of a flat character, the kind of character that people tend to hate on around these parts.

Modifié par Village Idiot, 25 février 2012 - 10:57 .

[Frozen83]

frij wrote...

Arik7 wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
No, it's the writers believing the fanbase is smart enough to take a hint, or several.

What hints about Ashley's sexuality were presented to me in my game?

She never yelled out "I'm a lesbian!" from the rooftops, so she must be straight.

Aaaah, that clears that up then...finally!

*cheking the roofs*
Nope, no lesbians here . M.

[Espurr]

Akrim_Drak wrote...
Edit: Toast none of us are really arguing. Just having a conversation. I like learning how other people feel(maturely, not like certain people act...)

Lol yeah I re-read that post and realized IT DIDN'T REALLY COME OFF HOW I INTENDED IT. Whoops.

That said: I now want to see Ashley screaming "I'm a lesbian" from a rooftop. Make this happen, devs.

[Akrim_Drak]

ToastPants wrote...

Akrim_Drak wrote...
Edit: Toast none of us are really arguing. Just having a conversation. I like learning how other people feel(maturely, not like certain people act...)

Lol yeah I re-read that post and realized IT DIDN'T REALLY COME OFF HOW I INTENDED IT. Whoops.

That said: I now want to see Ashley screaming "I'm a lesbian" from a rooftop. Make this happen, devs.

All Titanic like with FemShep holding her up outside the cockpit of the Normandy flying around Earth!

[Nynaeve]

ToastPants wrote...

Akrim_Drak wrote...
Edit: Toast none of us are really arguing. Just having a conversation. I like learning how other people feel(maturely, not like certain people act...)

Lol yeah I re-read that post and realized IT DIDN'T REALLY COME OFF HOW I INTENDED IT. Whoops.

That said: I now want to see Ashley screaming "I'm a lesbian" from a rooftop. Make this happen, devs.

In the rain, with her arms open...looking to the heavens.....breathing quite heavily:O

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Village Idiot wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I can see the case being made for Kaiden in a convincing way. He's more of a shy or quiet character. It's not all up front with him. For Ash, it's not going to be that convincing no matter what they do because of who Ash is. She's very upfront and very opinionated. She's a lot like Aveline in DA2. Strong, upfront, no bull****. That's Ashley.

With that in mind, one would think if the subject was every brought up Ashley would simply tell Shepard she isn't into other women, and that would be that. The subject never did come up, but based on what I know about her character, I think that would be the response.

But this is not universal.  The key phrasing in your discussion of her character is that you think this way and that is your estimation of her character.  I may have a different view.  You can provide evidence and I can disagree with that evidence (and vice versa), but neither will be considered fact because they are, in essence, ultimately based upon your perception.  

Also,  blunt, "up front" people have insecurities and fears.  This is what makes for nuanced characterization.  Three dimensional characters reveal themselves in layers as real humans and do not hold steadfastly to one character trait.  That sort of solitary representation of character is the very embodiment of a flat character, the kind of character that people tend to hate on around these parts.

Indeed. That's why I try to stick to the writing as much as possible. Really, all I want from BioWare are realisitc characters. If they can make it convincing that Ash was bisexual all along, so be it. But knowing them, it's going to be either great or terrible.

[jlb524]

Village Idiot wrote...

ToastPants wrote...


They are my BROTP. Also Isabela and Varric and their in universe fanfics. I would love to see similar friendships/relationships between my ME3 squadmates.

Friendfiction ftw! I love how basically Isabela and Varric were essentially writing RPF.  Lol!  Merrill and Isabela also had such an adorable relationship.  I know Liara and Tali aren't favorites for many, but I'm hoping they have some fun banters.  I'm also looking forward to the Vega dialogues with other squadies and Prothy!  Gonna be so much fun!

EDIT: That should say aren't.  I know people don't really like them at all (but I do). Oopsies! 

I like them and would love to see banter between them two XD

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
I can see the case being made for Kaiden in a convincing way. He's more of a shy or quiet character. It's not all up front with him. For Ash, it's not going to be that convincing no matter what they do because of who Ash is. She's very upfront and very opinionated. She's a lot like Aveline in DA2. Strong, upfront, no bull****. That's Ashley.

Really, you used Aveline as an example?

Oh dear, did you play through her act 2 quest? XD

Modifié par jlb524, 25 février 2012 - 11:10 .

[Akrim_Drak]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Indeed. That's why I try to stick to the writing as much as possible. Really, all I want from BioWare are realisitc characters. If they can make it convincing that Ash was bisexual all along, so be it. But knowing them, it's going to be either great or terrible.

Hopefully it'll actually be similar to what stupidtroll(will no longer use his name ) posted about growing to realize they love Shepard over the 3+ years. That's actually quite believable... My faith in Bioware however is zero.

[Olive Oomph]

Carfax wrote...

Olive Oomph wrote...

yeah! numbers don't lie!

LOL, one can only wonder why you bothered to post this, but any one with any sense can understand the reason behind those numbers.

Who cares about numbers in your own personal love story. A  straight woman happy with her sex life won't give a damn about that chart. Mass Effect is about giving each player their own personal story and love story as much as possible. Realism takes a back seat to that, always has, even for a straight dude shep, so your numbers how many people are this and that in reality don't interest anybody either. I generally don't care very little about numbers, so I mainly posted that chart for fun and we all could do with a little reminder, that those games are meant to be played for fun and not as an accurate representation of (your sense of) reality. Sexuality/Romance is just another variable among many.

 

[Ianamus]

Just because Ashley and Kaiden didn't flirt with a Shepard of their gender doesn't mean that they are straight. Hetero men don't necessarily flirt with every woman they come across, and neither do hetero women necessarily flirt with every man they come across. Some people are also just naturally shy, and don't really flirt at all, without prompting. I can also see why in a more formal military relationship like the one in ME1 expressing interest would be something to avoid, particularly same-gender attraction.

That said, hiding feelings from Shepard didn't seem to be something that Ashley often did, as she was very upfront and blunt when it came to her statements. Of course, she could have just been uncomfortable with herself and her supposed attraction to FemShep, but while realistic I don't think that sexual insecurity is something I want to see featured in the s/s romances in ME3.

It will be interesting to see how they handle it, if Ashley is an option.

Modifié par EJ107, 25 février 2012 - 11:19 .

[jlb524]

Am I the only one that doesn't care if Ash was 'bisexual all along', 'lesbian', 'straight but makes an exception', etc. and is just gonna go with it and not ruin the experience by having to find the proper label?

The labels are annoying in real life, why do we have to fret over applying them to fictional RPG characters (who tend to vary across pts, making it difficult to label them in the first place)?

Modifié par jlb524, 25 février 2012 - 11:19 .

[Aithieel]

Olive Oomph wrote...



. Mass Effect is about giving each player their own personal story and love story as much as possible. 

This one!

[Sherbet Lemon]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Indeed. That's why I try to stick to the writing as much as possible. Really, all I want from BioWare are realisitc characters. If they can make it convincing that Ash was bisexual all along, so be it. But knowing them, it's going to be either great or terrible.

Well, I have a faith that it will be well done if these spoilers turn out to be true.  Ashley is a great character and I really think they'll do well with her.

jlb524 wrote...

I like them and would love to see banter between them two XD

Haha! Yay! I am not the only one.  Sometimes around these parts, I wonder!

[Daashi]

I remember when Jade Empire came out, I was stoked about the same-sex pairings in JE. In fact I had just finished a playthrough of JE when I started playing ME and treated the characters the same way as I did in JE. "If I shot down Liara and Ashley then my male character can romance Kaidan", I was very disappointed when I discovered that I couldn't romance Kaidan as a male Shepard

But I felt that the cut-scenes and some of the writing in JE just wasn't up to scratch for those alternate romances and quickly jumped on the "If they couldn't do it properly, then they shouldn't have done it at all!" bandwagon. I have a sense that this might happen again with ME, in that what could be a great romantic sub-plot will be let down by the programmers of the cut-scenes and writers of said sub-plots.

One thing I really want is inter-party banter, that is what was so awesome about DA:O and DA2 was that your party members has relationships with each other and not were just a collection of individuals that only come into contact with each other through the PC and didn't really acknowlegde each other. Although ME tried to give it to you via the elevator conversations and ME2 had that awesome moment involing Tali and her shotgun. But yeah, I want more of that, not these squaddies randomly breaking out into a fight after only saying a couple of netrual lines to each other.

Modifié par Daashi, 25 février 2012 - 11:22 .

[Nynaeve]

EJ107 wrote...

Just because Ashley and Kaiden didn't flirt with a Shepard of their gender doesn't mean that they are straight. Hetero men don't necessarily flirt with every woman they come across, and neither do hetero women necessarily flirt with every man they come across. Some people are also just naturally shy, and don't really flirt at all, without prompting. I can also see why in a more formal military relationship like the one in ME1 expressing interest would be something to avoid, particularly same-gender attraction.

That said, hiding feelings from Shepard didn't seem to be something that Ashley often did, as she was very upfront and blunt when it came to her statements. Of course, she could have just been uncomfortable with herself and her supposed attraction to FemShep, but while realistic I don't think that sexual insecurity is something I want to see featured in the s/s romances in ME3.

It will be interesting to see how they handle it, if Ashley is an option.

Its a non issue to me personally, I think s/s supporters are feeling the need to defend the VS (should they be a option) due to criticisms from the sceptics, when really there is no need.

[Vapaa]

jlb524 wrote...

Am I the only one that doesn't care if Ash was 'bisexual all along', 'lesbian', 'straight but makes an exception', etc. and is just gonna go with it and not ruin the experience by having to find the proper label?

No you're not, to me sexual orientation isn't set on stone anyways so I couldn't care less, as long as the characters I want are avalible :3

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Akrim_Drak wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

Indeed. That's why I try to stick to the writing as much as possible. Really, all I want from BioWare are realisitc characters. If they can make it convincing that Ash was bisexual all along, so be it. But knowing them, it's going to be either great or terrible.

Hopefully it'll actually be similar to what stupidtroll(will no longer use his name ) posted about growing to realize they love Shepard over the 3+ years. That's actually quite believable... My faith in Bioware however is zero.

At the very least, it will give me a good excuse to leave Kaiden on Virmire... again.

[Sherbet Lemon]

jlb524 wrote...

The labels are annoying in real life, why do we have to fret over applying them to fictional RPG characters (who tend to vary across pts, making it difficult to label them in the first place)?

I agree with this.  I really think it's just a buy product of living in a world with strict gender binaries.  Although that notion of strict division is changing (excruciatingly slow as it were), I think it's just how society functions and by functions I mean is constructed.  At least that is what I think anyways.  Gender and sexuality is very complicated and I appreciate the way that Bioware (especially with DA2) challenges those assumptions.  It's one of the many reasons that I love them so.

[Chun Hei]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

I can see the case being made for Kaiden in a convincing way. He's more of a shy or quiet character. It's not all up front with him. For Ash, it's not going to be that convincing no matter what they do because of who Ash is. She's very upfront and very opinionated. She's a lot like Aveline in DA2. Strong, upfront, no bull****. That's Ashley.

With that in mind, one would think if the subject was every brought up Ashley would simply tell Shepard she isn't into other women, and that would be that. The subject never did come up, but based on what I know about her character, I think that would be the response.

Strange. If what you were saying were consistant I would think you would have a BIGGER problem with Kaidan being s/s. Even in male Shepard's game he shows signs of liking women or at least "being distracted" by them. Ashley says NOTHING about her sexuality to female Shepard. But you now argue that Kaidan can be s/s because he is so sensitive but Ashley should not be because she is the type of girl who would somehow mention her s/s preference in the middle of talking about her dead father or yelling at aliens and geth "I... AM... LESBIAN!"

[Olive Oomph]

jlb524 wrote...

Am I the only one that doesn't care if Ash was 'bisexual all along', 'lesbian', 'straight but makes an exception', etc. and is just gonna go with it and not ruin the experience by having to find the proper label?

The labels are annoying in real life, why do we have to fret over applying them to fictional RPG characters (who tend to vary across pts, making it difficult to label them in the first place)?

No and I never cared much, if the woman between whose legs I had my head, was gay, bi or straight but curious either

Some people should just stop studying their precious labels and tropes for a while and go out and take a good look at real people.

Modifié par Olive Oomph, 25 février 2012 - 11:39 .

[Nynaeve]

Olive Oomph wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Am I the only one that doesn't care if Ash was 'bisexual all along', 'lesbian', 'straight but makes an exception', etc. and is just gonna go with it and not ruin the experience by having to find the proper label?

The labels are annoying in real life, why do we have to fret over applying them to fictional RPG characters (who tend to vary across pts, making it difficult to label them in the first place)?

No and I never cared much, if the woman between whose legs I had my head, was gay, bi or straight but curious either

Some people should just stop studying their precious labels and tropes for a while and go out and take a good look at real people.

Well THAT got my attention

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Village Idiot wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

The labels are annoying in real life, why do we have to fret over applying them to fictional RPG characters (who tend to vary across pts, making it difficult to label them in the first place)?

I agree with this.  I really think it's just a buy product of living in a world with strict gender binaries.  Although that notion of strict division is changing (excruciatingly slow as it were), I think it's just how society functions and by functions I mean is constructed.  At least that is what I think anyways.  Gender and sexuality is very complicated and I appreciate the way that Bioware (especially with DA2) challenges those assumptions.  It's one of the many reasons that I love them so.

It was a lazy effort that should not be commended, IMO.

What was complicated about making the majority of the characters bisexual? Seems like the easy way out. Satisfy everyone and all that. Of course, it was at the expense of the characters themselves.