25715 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

Village Idiot wrote...
I agree with this.  I really think it's just a buy product of living in a world with strict gender binaries.  Although that notion of strict division is changing (excruciatingly slow as it were), I think it's just how society functions and by functions I mean is constructed.  At least that is what I think anyways. 

I agree that is the reason and I don't like it (especially when you start to think why it is constructed as such), so I will enjoy my escapism in mah BW games!

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
It was a lazy effort that should not be commended, IMO.

You call it lazy, I call it 'giving people more unrestricted options'.  Maybe that was their intent?  

EpicBoot2daFace wrote... 

What was complicated about making the majority of the characters bisexual? Seems like the easy way out. 

No one is saying it was good b/c it was complicated.

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...  

Satisfy everyone and all that. Of course, it was at the expense of the characters themselves.

How did it ruin the characters?  How did it ruin Isabela specifically?  Or Fenris?

Modifié par jlb524, 25 février 2012 - 11:46 .

[syllogi]

jlb524 wrote...

Am I the only one that doesn't care if Ash was 'bisexual all along', 'lesbian', 'straight but makes an exception', etc. and is just gonna go with it and not ruin the experience by having to find the proper label?

The labels are annoying in real life, why do we have to fret over applying them to fictional RPG characters (who tend to vary across pts, making it difficult to label them in the first place)?

Nope.  I would like some unique dialogue that talks about why neither Shepard nor Ashley said anything in ME1 about their possible feelings, but that doesn't have to be "Hey you are a WOMAN, are you sure you want to be with me, another WOMAN?"

I get annoyed enough in real life by people who try to label me, or tell me what "percentage" straight or lesbian I am.  Just ugh.  I don't need that in video games too.

[LordJeyl]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
What was complicated about making the majority of the characters bisexual? Seems like the easy way out. Satisfy everyone and all that. Of course, it was at the expense of the characters themselves.

Can I have an example at how their orientations were at their expense? From what I played, the only character who was totally bisexual was Isabella. Anders swinged to which ever gender Hawk was as evidence when he went to rescue his friend or lover. 

[jlb524]

syllogi wrote...
Nope.  I would like some unique dialogue that talks about why neither Shepard nor Ashley said anything in ME1 about their possible feelings, but that doesn't have to be "Hey you are a WOMAN, are you sure you want to be with me, another WOMAN?"

Oh yeah, I really hope they don't go that route.

Really, I don't want it to be any different from the new male romance with her.

Oh yeah, give me my cheap copy/paste romances, baby!

[EpicBoot2daFace]

It didn't ruin any of the characters. BioWare's writers were more than capable of doing that. It made sense with Isabela to go both ways. She did in the previous game as well. But for the others, I think it was unrealistic. Especially since in Origins the characters actually had preferences, with the exception of Leliana... who would do almost anything.

You don't have to agree with me, but I really don't feeling like discussing this anymore. Fan service to that degree breaks immersion for me.

[Chun Hei]

How was DA2 or [from what I have read] ME3 "bi" LIs the "easy way out"? You have to actually go out of your way to romance them as s/s lovers. Before those game all you had to do to have a LI assume the position was to be the correct gender. Then the hard part was beating them off with a stick. Or you could be like Abispa and be the Warden who literally sleeps with EVERYBODY who was available. "Complicated" love is having Bioware spoon feed you?

[Arik7]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

It didn't ruin any of the characters. BioWare's writers were more than capable of doing that. It made sense with Isabela to go both ways. She did in the previous game as well. But for the others, I think it was unrealistic. Especially since in Origins the characters actually had preferences, with the exception of Leliana... who would do almost anything.

You don't have to agree with me, but I really don't feeling like discussing this anymore. Fan service to that degree breaks immersion for me.

The purpose of a highly-customizable RPG is "fan service".  If you want characters set in stone, you can watch a movie.

Modifié par Arik7, 25 février 2012 - 11:56 .

[Collider]

How was DA2 or [from what I have read] ME3 "bi" LIs the "easy way out"? You have to actually go out of your way to romance them as s/s lovers.

In this particular instance, it's easier because they created a romance with gender neutral dialog and have that apply for both opposite and same sex. It's one romance for both genders.

You only had to go out of your way for S/S romances in DA2 as you did O/S romances. In other words, all you need to do was hit the heart icon, no matter what your gender was.

As far as ME3, the only reliable sources we have seem to have made no mention on how difficult or out-of-the-way the S/S romances are.

[Sherbet Lemon]

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

It was a lazy effort that should not be commended, IMO.

What was complicated about making the majority of the characters bisexual? Seems like the easy way out. Satisfy everyone and all that. Of course, it was at the expense of the characters themselves.

Well, I don't want to drift too off topic especially into complicated theory that is considered "controversial," but to me those relationships embodied some of Judith Butler's discussion on gender performativity.  The romances in DA reflected and abolished notions of a strict binary in that they were open to either character in some cases subverted traditional male/female roles (i.e Captain Isabela, melodramatic, romantic Anders) and futhermore subverted traditional romantic tropes. 

The fact that sexuality was so fluid in these games is a complicated ideal and goes against established norms.  Like I said, I don't want to delve to deeply because it's off topic for this thread and too political, but that's why I think the romance in DA2 rocked.

[Cathey]

jlb524 wrote...

Am I the only one that doesn't care if Ash was 'bisexual all along', 'lesbian', 'straight but makes an exception', etc. and is just gonna go with it and not ruin the experience by having to find the proper label?

The labels are annoying in real life, why do we have to fret over applying them to fictional RPG characters (who tend to vary across pts, making it difficult to label them in the first place)?

I like having more s/s options for my characters so if they want to make a character bi who was previously only open to male Shep, I say go for it. In my FemSheps world she was just shy or confused and it took a few years and actually losing Shep to make her realise her true feelings.

Besides both gender Shepards can't exist together so my FemShep hasn't seen Ashley take interest in a man.

[Akrim_Drak]

Cathey wrote...

Besides both gender Shepards can't exist together so my FemShep hasn't seen Ashley take interest in a man.

Yep! FemShep doesn't exist.

[Chun Hei]

Collider wrote...

How was DA2 or [from what I have read] ME3 "bi" LIs the "easy way out"? You have to actually go out of your way to romance them as s/s lovers.

In this particular instance, it's easier because they created a romance with gender neutral dialog and have that apply for both opposite and same sex. It's one romance for both genders.

You only had to go out of your way for S/S romances in DA2 as you did O/S romances. In other words, all you need to do was hit the heart icon, no matter what your gender was.

As far as ME3, the only reliable sources we have seem to have made no mention on how difficult or out-of-the-way the S/S romances are.

In a game like DA2 such gender specialization COULD have been implemented since it takes place over YEARS. But there were A LOT of ways Bioware chose NOT to explore the passage of time in that game and it was not the "bi" LIs that ruined it.

In ME3 I would challenge anyone to tell me how a s/s and o/s relationship with a LI should be different from each other. This a game about the hero racing to save a galaxy from destruction and humans from extinction. Time is of the essence and any "quality time" between lovers would be stolen moments at best. Most likely they will "fade to black" so positions will not come into play. And I really cannot think of a way two guys saying "We should make the most of our possible last night together!" is going to  be much different from a man and a woman.

[Ricvenart]

Is gender neutral dialogue really "easy"? Sure it's less work then making 2 gender specific dialogues, also takes up less space, but if anything I'd imagine creating effective dialogue that is universal for any gender if harder. I personally wouldn't want to be refered to as a gender all the time though, it's not realistic or effective for showing closeness.

Just going to repost this:

Ricvenart wrote...

Alistar and Non Noble Romance

Always felt this scene would have worked just as well as a m/m romance, aside from the silent wardens reply "I don't see how that affects us" maybe not working on the same level, though it could have been easily changed.
Kind of interesting though how the whole scene isn't tainted by gender neutrality or made worse because of it, even though Alistar wasn't bi, it still simply isn't brought up, because it's not really the issue there.

For laughs: Have you ever licked a lamp post in Winter?

Keep in mind the dialogue wasn't pre-"cheapened" by Alistar already being bi, but would it really make his character worse if he could have been?

Modifié par Ricvenart, 26 février 2012 - 12:18 .

[Chun Hei]

Ricvenart wrote...

Is gender neutral dialogue really "easy"? Sure it's less work then making 2 gender specific dialogues, also takes up less space, but if anything I'd imagine creating effective dialogue that is universal for any gender if harder. I personally wouldn't want to be refered to as a gender all the time though, it's not realistic or effective for showing closeness.

Just going to repost this:

Ricvenart wrote...

Alistar and Non Noble Romance

Always felt this scene would have worked just as well as a m/m romance, aside from the silent wardens reply "I don't see how that affects us" maybe not working on the same level, though it could have been easily changed.
Kind of interesting though how the whole scene isn't tainted by gender neutrality or made worse because of it, even though Alistar wasn't bi, it still simply isn't brought up, because it's not really the issue there.

For laughs: Have you ever licked a lamp post in Winter?

Keep in mind the dialogue wasn't pre-"cheapened" by Alistar already being bi, but would it really make his character worse if he could have been?

Bioware romances have almost always been "gender neutral" in a way since I think Bioware assumes that most players are male even the ones playing as female heroes IMHO.

Also I have seen videos of the lesbian Morrigan romance. Her romance AS ORIGINALLY WRITTEN is just as "fitting" for a female Warden as it is for a male save for a line or two about men. But even then she is talking about men she has seduced in the past and not about the male Warden himself.

S/s critics mention the "dark ritual" as proof that she is straight but the DR option is already there for female Warden anyway and could easily work if they were lovers.

Modifié par Chun Hei, 26 février 2012 - 12:25 .

[Knightly_BW]

Collider wrote...

How was DA2 or [from what I have read] ME3 "bi" LIs the "easy way out"? You have to actually go out of your way to romance them as s/s lovers.

In this particular instance, it's easier because they created a romance with gender neutral dialog and have that apply for both opposite and same sex. It's one romance for both genders.

You only had to go out of your way for S/S romances in DA2 as you did O/S romances. In other words, all you need to do was hit the heart icon, no matter what your gender was.

As far as ME3, the only reliable sources we have seem to have made no mention on how difficult or out-of-the-way the S/S romances are.

Maybe it will be better writers/game designers can put in "more than a friend" option to all LI conversations. I really wished there was that option during DA:O. So I could say Alistair I was seeing him more than a friend and he could turn me down.

Also instead of saying those romances bi those are straight option we can hear it from the characters we are interested in. Maybe that will stop all "ninjamance" whiners and gay/lesbian/bi hate. Let our character be of any sexual orientation instead of NPCs. Even if they design a game with that option I wouldn't mind it if I can't S/S romance anyone. At least I can say I tried... just like real world.

Today I watched Laramie Project, you know the one about Matt Shepard (which my main got his name from) and his terrible death. Not for gay people but everyone living in that town. Because of some people's hate too many people suffered and seems like we, as humanity, didn't learn anything from that kind of incidents. In the end I found myself remembering what Baria Frontier lady said "There's enough grief in the galaxy. No need to add to it" no matter how little it is.

[EpicBoot2daFace]

Village Idiot wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...

It was a lazy effort that should not be commended, IMO.

What was complicated about making the majority of the characters bisexual? Seems like the easy way out. Satisfy everyone and all that. Of course, it was at the expense of the characters themselves.

Well, I don't want to drift too off topic especially into complicated theory that is considered "controversial," but to me those relationships embodied some of Judith Butler's discussion on gender performativity.  The romances in DA reflected and abolished notions of a strict binary in that they were open to either character in some cases subverted traditional male/female roles (i.e Captain Isabela, melodramatic, romantic Anders) and futhermore subverted traditional romantic tropes. 

The fact that sexuality was so fluid in these games is a complicated ideal and goes against established norms.  Like I said, I don't want to delve to deeply because it's off topic for this thread and too political, but that's why I think the romance in DA2 rocked.

Well said. It didn't make the romances in in the game any better for me, but everyone's different.

[Collider]

I honestly think all they need to do is label flirt/romance dialog options to stop ninjamances (I personally don't think it's "whining" to criticize romances being too easy to enter accidentally, gay OR straight).
This can sometimes lead to linearity of the romances, but not necessarily so.

[Akrim_Drak]

Collider wrote...

I honestly think all they need to do is label flirt/romance dialog options to stop ninjamances (I personally don't think it's "whining" to criticize romances being too easy to enter accidentally, gay OR straight).
This can sometimes lead to linearity of the romances, but not necessarily so.

We cried and whined and yelled for a "romance" type color for ALL romances to text right after ME2 came out or like how DA2 did it with the heart. Apparently they don't care.

[Akrim_Drak]

Some great news ladies and gentleladies. I asked the wonderful Sleepee, who was one of the guys who got an early copy from the Vegas launch yesterday to keep watch for any dialogue options regarding the s/s stuff.

So far I'm told that there was some sexual tension between mShep and Kaidan. I didn't ask for specifics because I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable or anything (they're not pursuing the romance fully as far as I know), but this is all 100% confirmable information. Sleepee will keep me updated on any other dialogue options and I'll be sure to pass it on.

Modifié par Akrim_Drak, 26 février 2012 - 12:41 .

[jlb524]

Ricvenart wrote...
Is gender neutral dialogue really "easy"? Sure it's less work then making 2 gender specific dialogues, also takes up less space, but if anything I'd imagine creating effective dialogue that is universal for any gender if harder.

Oh it's definitely 'easier' than writing two separate gendered paths (just like it's easier to do one path for Paragons vs. Renegades).

I argue against the assumption that 'ease' is the only reason BW is doing their romance this way (and the assumption that 'easier' = 'bad').

From my experience, the romances tend to revolve around some aspect of the companion's story and tend not to go into male/female relationship roles hardly at all.  Which is why you can mod most of the heterosexual only romances into fitting with a same gendered partner.

Akrim_Drak wrote...
So far I'm told that there was some sexual tension between mShep and Kaidan. I didn't ask for specifics because I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable or anything, but this is all 100% confirmable information. Sleepee will keep me updated on any other dialogue options and I'll be sure to pass it on.

Hellz yeah!

Is he going to pursue that romance?

Modifié par jlb524, 26 février 2012 - 12:39 .

[Akrim_Drak]

jlb524 wrote...

Akrim_Drak wrote...
So far I'm told that there was some sexual tension between mShep and Kaidan. I didn't ask for specifics because I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable or anything, but this is all 100% confirmable information. Sleepee will keep me updated on any other dialogue options and I'll be sure to pass it on.

Hellz yeah!

Is he going to pursue that romance?

Not as far as I know. It's actually a friend who got the game, Sleepee didn't have a PS3 to play it on.

I didn't wanna bug em too much either. I'm grateful for -any- information they can provide, didn't wanna push it.

Modifié par Akrim_Drak, 26 février 2012 - 12:42 .

[SolidBeast]

LordJeyl wrote...

EpicBoot2daFace wrote...
What was complicated about making the majority of the characters bisexual? Seems like the easy way out. Satisfy everyone and all that. Of course, it was at the expense of the characters themselves.

Can I have an example at how their orientations were at their expense? From what I played, the only character who was totally bisexual was Isabella. Anders swinged to which ever gender Hawk was as evidence when he went to rescue his friend or lover. 

Actually, no. Gaider himself stated that Anders was bisexual no matter what.

Akrim_Drak wrote...

So far I'm told that
there was some sexual tension between mShep and Kaidan.

*slaps self*

[Sleepee]

Salutations!

To clarify, I'm not the one behind the wheel, since I don't own a PS3 (the copy we won). Also, I've got a buttload of classwork due Monday, so despite my best interests, I am abstaining from playing or spoiling myself with major plot details. Our group gave the copy to the only PS3-owning member, and they're currently at his house playing it through (and loving it).

To my knowledge, he's pursuing a straight-romance with Tali. Sorry about that. However, like Akrim said, I'll keep him updated on any potential S-S dialogue choices.

[Blacklash93]

Akrim_Drak wrote...

Some great news ladies and gentleladies. I asked the wonderful Sleepee, who was one of the guys who got an early copy from the Vegas launch yesterday to keep watch for any dialogue options regarding the s/s stuff.

So far I'm told that there was some sexual tension between mShep and Kaidan. I didn't ask for specifics because I don't want to make anyone feel uncomfortable or anything (they're not pursuing the romance fully as far as I know), but this is all 100% confirmable information. Sleepee will keep me updated on any other dialogue options and I'll be sure to pass it on.

Thanks for keeping us updated. Also thank Sleepee for me!

[Jazinto]

Thread just grew 3 pages backwards. Something old merged? Weird sh*t...