25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Yojimaru]

Mmm... delicious fallacies everywhere~

[jlb524]

RetroActiv wrote...
I was actually just presenting it as such for the sake of arguement but that's really besides the point. I think it's pretty clear that my issue is that this  a particularly extreme act fan service all for the sole purpose of  satisfying a small segment of loud fanboys/fangirls. It's direct and blatant pandering.

Well, considering only a minority of gamers do any romance...isn't the fact that Ash/Kaidan were available at all to a heterosexual Shepard pandering to a small segment of loud fangirls/fanboys that want romances?

Abispa wrote...
The difference is, hypocrite, that YOUR fan service is based on denying others options that are neither forced on you nor have much bearing on your game. For years Bioware has written romances that are easily servicable for either gender, even though there were no s/s options for those LIs.

For example, both Allistair and Morrigan's romances EASILY translate into gay romances if you mod a same gender hero into them. All it takes in changing a line or two to make them PEFECTLY "GAY". That's it. Why? Because Bioware tries to write romances, and other dialog that are as open to head canon's as possible.

Some Morrigan lovers say they love the fact that she is an irredeemable [w]itch, while other's find her a tragic character searching for redemption. Making LIs "bi" or pansexual does NOT rob them of their sexual identity or make them "shallow" compared to past romances because they have ALWAYS, for reasons of necessity (like focusing on adventure and combat) been "shallow." If you pay attention to written dialog and not your own prejudices even you should be able to figure it out.

In short, making Ashley "bi" for someone else's female Shepard deprives me, a straight male player who normally plays straight male heroes, of NOTHING, unless I was some "insolent bastard who believes he is the center of the universe to whom Bioware must listen." Fortunately Bioware doesn't listen to you. Neither does Microsoft. Bethesda, and apparently Capcom.

Yup, I just quote you again and agree with all that you say XD 

I hope that doesn't get annoying XD

But it's spot on!

Modifié par jlb524, 26 février 2012 - 09:50 .

[Carfax]

MissOuJ wrote...

First of all, there have been both intersex people and people who identify as non-binary gendered throughout history, even if we're just about to understand the physical aspects of that (as in, sciense) - but these people could tell you in no uncertain terms that they do, in fact exist.

I never said these people didn't exist.  However, you make it seem as though these people are NORMAL when they're not.

What percentage of humanity consists of intersex people?  Below 1% surely..  They are mistakes, or deviations from the normal pattern and so do not count when speaking of a human species in general.

Second, if you really think sex and sexuality is only about reproduction, you're really doing it wrong (and quite frankly, I feel kind of sorry for you).

You have a talent for saying I said things which I really didn't  

Yes, everyone engages in sex for pleasure, including myself.  However, this does not mean that sex's primary purpose is NOT reproduction...

We are a sexually reproducing species.  Even orgasms have their root in reproduction!  This is simply a biological fact..

[Carfax]

Abispa wrote...

The difference is, hypocrite, that YOUR fan service is based on denying others options that are neither forced on you nor have much bearing on your game. For years Bioware has written romances that are easily servicable for either gender, even though there were no s/s options for those LIs.

How am I a hypocrite, when I've said that I agree that there should be exclusive S/S romances in the game, and that I would personally love to see ALL romances cut from the games; including heterosexual ones?

For example, both Allistair and Morrigan's romances EASILY translate into gay romances if you mod a same gender hero into them. All it takes in changing a line or two to make them PEFECTLY "GAY". That's it. Why? Because Bioware tries to write romances, and other dialog that are as open to head canon's as possible.

I would disagree with this, and so would many others.  Didn't Gaider come under fire by gays for stereotypical and unrealistic portrayal of homosexuals in DA2?  Just like it's unrealistic for Kaidan to suddenly show sexual interest in MaleShep despite there not being any indication of any attraction in ME.

You see, people notice these things, and when developers take the low road to appeal to as many people as possible by using shortcuts and cookie cutter romances, you end up with an inferior result.

Some Morrigan lovers say they love the fact that she is an irredeemable [w]itch, while other's find her a tragic character searching for redemption. Making LIs "bi" or pansexual does NOT rob them of their sexual identity or make them "shallow" compared to past romances because they have ALWAYS, for reasons of necessity (like focusing on adventure and combat) been "shallow." If you pay attention to written dialog and not your own prejudices even you should be able to figure it out.

You keep bringing up DAO as if it's the holy grail, but it's my opinion that the game had the worst romances I've ever seen in my entire life.  Absolutely cringe worthy

[jlb524]

Carfax wrote...
How am I a hypocrite, when I've said that I agree that there should be exclusive S/S romances in the game, and that I would personally love to see ALL romances cut from the games; including heterosexual ones?

I want these kind of romances but I don't want any romances.

Carfax wrote...
Didn't Gaider come under fire by gays for stereotypical and unrealistic portrayal of homosexuals in DA2?

No, that never happened...the 'gays' loved what they did in DA2.

Carfax wrote...
What percentage of humanity consists of intersex people?  Below 1% surely..  They are mistakes, or deviations from the normal pattern and so do not count when speaking of a human species in general.

What percentage of humanity consists of people that hate gay romances in ME3?  Below 1% surely..  They are mistakes, or deviations from the normal pattern and so do not count when speaking of a human species in general. 

Modifié par jlb524, 26 février 2012 - 10:39 .

[Vapaa]

Carfax wrote...

How am I a hypocrite, when I've said that I agree that there should be exclusive S/S romances in the game, and that I would personally love to see ALL romances cut from the games; including heterosexual ones?

So you want Bioware pandering to YOUR wishes ?

[RomanDark]

Carfax wrote...

RomanDark wrote...

Every persons sexuality is ambiguous until proven otherwise. Neither Kaidan nor Ashley (or Anders) made any remarks as to only liking the opposite sex so their sexuality cannot be pinpointed as strictly heterosexual, nor should they or any character be confined to such norms. Now depending on how Bioware approaches their same-sex romances they can be kept completely in character. Anders felt weird, but that's because he seemed like a completely different character, and arguably he was. We should reserve judgement on the vs until we have seen the romances for ourselves.

Last time I checked, heterosexuality was the dominant sexuality among humans by an overwhelming margin. 

Thats why we assume most people are heterosexual, without them stating anything regarding their sexuality.  It's all about numbers and probability.

With that said, Kaidan made remarks about finding females attractive in ME.  So is it wrong to assume his writers originally intended him to be perceived as heterosexual? 

Not at all, it is in the end all about perception. He did mention the "views" in Chora's Den and his remarks towards Liara, however the game never presents an opportunity in which he might comment on the attractiveness of a man so while his attraction to women is established, his attraction to men or lack thereof is still up in the air. So based on that information, yes, we may assume he is straight but that is all it is, an assumption. But to say that he is "suddenly bi" is based on a lack of established information vital to defining his true sexuality, in otherwords ignorance.

If someone describes a shape to you and says it's a quadrilateral and a parallelogram, you may assume that it's a square, but until you know it has only right angles and all side are equal length, it could still be a rectangle or a rhombus.

Modifié par RomanDark, 26 février 2012 - 12:08 .

[Carfax]

jlb524 wrote...

I want these kind of romances but I don't want any romances.

What I meant was, if there are to be romances, then gays should have exclusive romances just like heterosexuals....though not as many

However, I still believe Mass Effect would be better off without these ridiculous romances.  Come on, Garrus is now romanceable? 

How absurd! 

No, that never happened...the 'gays' loved what they did in DA2.

Google is your friend.

Modifié par Carfax, 26 février 2012 - 10:46 .

[MissOuJ]

Carfax wrote...

I never said these people didn't exist.  However, you make it seem as though these people are NORMAL when they're not.

What percentage of humanity consists of intersex people?  Below 1% surely..  They are mistakes, or deviations from the normal pattern and so do not count when speaking of a human species in general.

Would you like to define what you mean by "normal"? You mean quantitative normal? Why, sure, these people belong to the minority. Also belonging to the minority: lefthanded people, gingers, blondes, blue-eyes people... are they "not normal" as well?

Or are we discussing normal as in "normal in the context of societal norms"? Because those change over time. Just 100 years ago a married woman who wasn't allowed to open her own bank account was "societal normal". Was it any better or morally right?

Or are we talking about "normal as in part of healthy practises and presentations of the human condition"? Because then, again, you'd be wrong.

Yes, everyone engages in sex for pleasure, including myself.  However, this does not mean that sex's primary purpose is NOT reproduction...

We are a sexually reproducing species.  Even orgasms have their root in reproduction!  This is simply a biological fact..

Partly true: not all sexual pleasure is rooted on reproduction. Take a moment to familiarize yourself with female sexuality, for example.

And even if it was, I think we humans have done a bit too well with populating this planet, so reproduction isn't really a problem to our species.

Modifié par MissOuJ, 26 février 2012 - 10:52 .

[jlb524]

Carfax wrote...
What I meant was, if there are to be romances, then gays should have exclusive romances just like heterosexuals....though not as many

However, I still believe Mass Effect would be better off without these ridiculous romances.  Come on, Garrus is now romanceable? 

How absurd! 

Go complain in the Garrus thread then.

Carfax wrote... 

Google is your friend.

Because...one blogger represents all the 'gays'.

OMG, I read the original petition and:

This is completely wrong, homosexuals do not approach people and force them to kiss us, the person that wrote this game should be fired for stereotyping homosexuals in such a disrespectful way, as well as creating the worst writing in characters, plot and everything else in DA2.

lolwut...that doesn't even happen.

Modifié par jlb524, 26 février 2012 - 10:53 .

[Vapaa]

Carfax wrote...

However, I still believe Mass Effect would be better off without these ridiculous romances.  Come on, Garrus is now romanceable? 

Don't want it ? don't play it

Bacause truth is that ME isn't your game, so if you don't like something, the only thing you can do is deal with it

[alek2702]

Carfax wrote...
Google is your friend.

Six times as many people signed a petition in support of Gaider so it's safe to say the romances were quite well received by the 'gays'.

Modifié par alek2702, 26 février 2012 - 10:53 .

[MissOuJ]

alek2702 wrote...

Carfax wrote...
Google is your friend.

Six times as many people signed a petition in support of Gaider so it's safe to say the romances were quite well received by the 'gays'.

Ohh, the burn! It's delicious!

[RomanDark]

Carfax wrote...

Just like it's unrealistic for Kaidan to suddenly show sexual interest in MaleShep despite there not being any indication of any attraction in ME.

Like I have said, we still do not know how the romance in ME3 will play out, or start for that matter between mShep and Kaidan. I would be a bit upset if it was done exactly the same as the femShep romance, there would have to be some expostion on feelings being held back. Perhaps Kaidan never voiced his interest in him because Shepard never showed signs of being interested in men (which the game did not allow) so he assumed (there's that word again) that Shepard was straight and therefore held back. Or perhaps he felt there was a different dynamic between a male superior officer than there was with a female, and different boundries that he was willing to cross. Or maybe he was sexually attracted to Shepard and after Shepard's death he "threw caution to the wind" and after getting over the Horizion incident he decides to be more forthcoming to Shepard with his feelings. Since we do not know what goes on in Kaidan's head we cannot be certain of anything other than what is explicitly observed from his actions and words. WE DO NOT KNOW, if Kaidan had feelings for Shepard or not.

Long story short, if Kaidan did not have some sort of scene explaining why they never got together before (be it unsure of the other's sexuality, refraining from getting involved with superior officer, didn't realize feelings until too late or whatever) then I think Bioware would be doing the character a disservice. But I will wait until I have played the game and gone through it myself (and I urge you to play it and judge it for yourself) before I come to any solid conclusions on the integrity of the character in question. It's really all about how they handle it in game.

[Maugrim]

Oh that's hilarious a troll citing a troll petition!

This call for one of thos Xzibit Yo Dawg meme gifs, you know "You dawg I heard you like trolling so I put some trolling in your trolling so you can troll while you troll!"  but  am much too tired to bother atm.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 26 février 2012 - 11:23 .

[jlb524]

makenzieshepard wrote...

Oh that's hilarious a troll citing a troll petition!

This call for one of thos Xzibit Yo Dawg meme gifs, you know "You dawg I heard you like trolling so I put some trolling in your trolling so you can troll while you troll!"  but  am much too tired to bother atm.

[People4Peace]

Carfax wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

What about the straight audience and the many straight romances?

There can't be 'contextual bisexuality hacks' without those.

We've had this arguement before.  You can't use the equivalency arguement with heterosexuality and homosexuality, because the two are fundamentally unequal.

Heterosexuality is the default sexuality in human beings, where as homosexuality is a fringe sexuality.  Expecting homosexuality to be given the same treatment as heterosexuality is therefore quite ridiculous. 

There is no default sexuality. Homosexuality is not a fringe sexuality. It never has been. Different cultures/nations/religions=different perspective. You're obviously speaking from a very heternormative point of view, one probably influenced by religion, politics and/or a lack of education (a proper one). Sexuality is fluid for many people and whether Kaidan finds women attractive or not is irrelevant. But I can tell this concept is too hard for you to understand. It is hard to think outside of the box if you've been told something your whole life.

And arguing that the majority should get their way over the minority shows that you are speaking from a place of (historical) power. Just because there is a majority, it doesn't mean that the minority's needs should be ignored or forgotten about. Look how that has turned out in real life. Plus how many games pander to the LGBTQ community? Come on. If you're going to discuss an issue at least be educated about the other perspective and the facts.

Intersex/transgender/transexual/genderqueer HUMAN BEINGS aren't mistakes. And it is pretty damn ignorant of you to think so. Obviously you're not educated on these matters nor have met these individuals. If you did, you would realize they are as normal as you and I. Well...at least me.

Obviously you're just trolling/complaining and creating these discussions for no reason or because it fills your heart with joy. You should just leave this thread if you aren't going to contribute anything positive. I always find it interesting that some people really feel the need to complain about s/s options or homosexuality in general....very curious. Especially if s/s options don't impact your gaming experience. And this obviously isn't the place for you to voice those opinions and that isn't the point of this thread. At all.

@MissOuJ  I agree with everything you said!!


@jlb524  I haven't read that one. I've only read Undoing Gender and Bodies that Matter. I don't know much about Foucalt so I'll have to read more of his stuff.


On a side note, I want to note the differences between transgender and transexual. I know some people on this thread may already know this but for those that don't since many assume they're the same. Transgender people are usually pre-surgery but it can simply refer to one's gender identity (or lack thereof). Transexual people are post-surgery. Someone can be both transgender and transexual. And obviously not all transgender individuals want to have surgery. Hopefully this helps if some were confused.

[Maugrim]

Should've known....damn Talimancers!




Just kidding Talimancer's I love her too, please don't kill me!

[MissOuJ]

People4Peace wrote...

On a side note, I want to note the differences between transgender and transexual. I know some people on this thread may already know this but for those that don't since many assume they're the same. Transgender people are usually pre-surgery but it can simply refer to one's gender identity (or lack thereof). Transexual people are post-surgery. Someone can be both transgender and transexual. And obviously not all transgender individuals want to have surgery. Hopefully this helps if some were confused.

Thank you for the information! I'll be keeping that in mind for future discussions! :happy:

Also, big thumps up for the takedown above! You keep rocking!

Modifié par MissOuJ, 26 février 2012 - 11:49 .

[Nynaeve]

Carfax wrote...

MissOuJ wrote...

[citation needed]

This might just blow your mind, but there isn't, in fact, a "default sexuality" - for pretty much any beings, human or not. What you might call "nonstandard" (in heterosexist society) sexual expression is in fact normal variation of the Kinsley scale. ******-/bisexuality is in fact not a "deviation", "aberration" or "corruption" of this hypothetical "default sexuality" - which is why representing the full scale of sexual preference in the media is very important, because a lot of people still cling onto the old, heterosexist and homophobic ideas of the old days.

Also, that's nice straight priviledge you've got there. Try not to flaunt it too much.

I probably shouldn't pour fuel into the drama, but this just pushes my buttons so much...

You were doing so well, until you mentioned Kinsey.  Seriously, his studies have pretty much all been debunked.  

And if heterosexuality isn't the default sexuality in humans, why is it that there are two sexes?  And why is it that our external genitalia is designed or fitted for union with the opposite sex, regardless of whether that person is gay, bisexual or straight?

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that a penis is shaped to enter a vagina, and that a vagina is contoured to accept a penis. 

This made me lol "I am man! you are woman! .....now bend over!"

[jlb524]

Vaginas are contoured to accept fingers too..omg natural conspiracy!

[Jazinto]

Arik7 wrote...

I'm pretty sure most m/m romance supporters would be content with a new bi/gay squadmate LI, such as Vega for example. Nobody forced BioWare to make Kaidan open to s/s romance in ME3. It was their writers' intention, if the rumors are to be believed.  If this thread is any indication, Kaidan is a popular character among gay men and he can be presented believably as a bisexual.   For most straight men, he is dead anyway. No harm done.

He's dead for a lot of guys. There was no "gay" reason to save him, other than having a boy rather then a girl with you, since he wasn't a love interest for male Shepard. Mass Effect 2 New Game default survivor for ManShep was Ashley. So loads of new BroShep players from the second game won't have him. Maybe Kaidan's dead for a majority of guys, maybe not, either way he'll be dead for many. It's not like the average customer is gonna play this game over and over again, eventually picking Kaidan in a new game. It's all to specific. If this had any influence on Kaidan being bi, then probably not a good one, because James on the other hand is always there obviously. Who knows, maybe none of them will be available, maybe it's just Steve.

[ElitePinecone]

Luca Stern wrote...

He's dead for a lot of guys. There was no "gay" reason to save him, other than having a boy rather then a girl with you, since he wasn't a love interest for male Shepard. Mass Effect 2 New Game default survivor for ManShep was Ashley. So loads of new BroShep players from the second game won't have him. Maybe Kaidan's dead for a majority of guys, maybe not, either way he'll be dead for many. 

Kaidan is available. 

And yeah, your argument is pretty spot on - from what I've been able to tell from developer comments, Kaidan is just about the deadest character (if that's a valid concept) in the game. I remember a quote from Casey that there 'wasn't a lot of love for Kaidan' in the fanbase (in terms of their telemetry and numbers on who survived), and having him dead in default ME2 new games wouldn't help the numbers, either. 

Could that have affected the decision to make him s/s? I think it did. The percentage of players who have him alive in ME3 from an ME/ME2 import would be relatively small, when we consider how many played a defauit new ME2 mShep game. 

It might also explain why just about every piece of marketing features Ashley, say. 

[Jazinto]

What I meant was Casey Hudson said there was gonna be a same-sex love interest for male Shepards. Having said that they've got to have this option available for every player, no matter if they saved Kaidan or not. Why invest time and money in making him bisexual, if so many ManShep players, won't be able to enjoy it, because he's dead.

Announcing a feature, implementing it, then preventing a lot of people from using it? Doesn't make sense.

ElitePinecone wrote...

Kaidan is available. 

Show me proof then. You are free to believe what you want and so am I. And I won't believe it until I see solid proof.

[ElitePinecone]

Luca Stern wrote...
Show me proof then. You are free to believe what you want and so am I. And I won't believe it until I see solid proof.

Sieves leak like... sieves. 

If the person from the SA forums posting about confirmed game features and screenshots of test builds for the last *two months* didn't convince you, perhaps the Las Vegas Space Edition retrieval team who confirmed same-sex flirting between mShep and Kaidan a few hours ago might. 

Or you could check Mr Priestly's post, the November beta's ambiguous dialogue...