25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Jazinto]

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

That's probably a huge reason itself.

SolidBeast wrote...

If it were James instead of Kaidan in
the first game, Ashley would still be alive in most manShep
playthroughs. I'm sure whoever wanted to romance him kept him alive. Or
will go back and save him.

IsaacShep wrote...

Yeah, he's dead for most MaleSheps. But
most of GAY MaleSheps saved him. Not to mention, you can have him alive
in ME3 by picking him as VS in character creator

So Bioware assumed all fans of male same-sex romance
A) have saved Kaidan
have made another playthrough all the way from ME to ME2 without BW having actually confirmed Kaidan to be bi
C) are just going to lose out, if they don't figure out to pick Kaidan in character creation in case of a New Game
D) will make another ME+ME2 playthrough after ME3 is released and bi Kaidan confirmed before playing ME3
E) are willing to just give up their possibly years old playthroughs for a New Game with a Kaidan romance or
F) will settle for Kaidan in a New Game or new ME+ME2 import after their first, main/canon ME3 playthrough

It's all so terribly filled with variables. For most ManSheps Kaidan is probably dead. Hateful extremists still have to deal with Steve and one of their issues is that Shepard can now be gay, even if their Shepard isn't. Like I said before, if Bioware would seriously worry about those kind of people, they wouldn't include gay romance in the first place.
Why invest time, money, effort into extra writing, recording, animating cutscenes just to prevent a lot of people from seeing this content? Meanwhile James being a new character is always alive regardless of who died in a previous playthrough or who you pick in character creation. I'm not arguing whether James should be bi over Kaidan. I'm just trying to figure out the reason why Bioware would decide to go this way.

[Sylvianus]

makenzieshepard wrote...

catabuca wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

So basically, all I have is Cortez since I killed Kaidan. Thanks Bioware, I appreciate it! <_<

I wish Vega was also available, but don't you like Cortez?  He's also great! 

I think it's more that there are numerous f/f choices, and the one guaranteed m/m choice that everyone will have in their game isn't even a full squad member. Well, that's how I see it anyway.

It just leaves it feeling a little like an empty gesture, when the decks are still stacked, as they always have been, in favour of hot chicks.

Hot chicks for straight men.  Look I love Liara but the reason she, Kelly and Diana are open to men is because well as you said hot chicks. 

I get that some of you don't care about intentions, only results but intentions do matter to a lot of people including me.  I'm happy to see Samantha and I will  make a final judgement on her romance after  I see if for myself but there are some suspect overtones our new F/F romance.  I mean the two new options don't do bubkiss for the largest demographic so on that front the gay guys got more and ya'll kinda even deserve it so I'm happy for you.  But please don't act like the F/F romances to date have been for the lesbian/bi girl communities benefit.

This is this kind of argument I see everywhere that play against lesbians and I will never understand. I am convinced myself.

You ( lesbians on the bsn ) complain all the time that bioware is developing lesbian options. You accuse them of wanting to please straight male gamers, each time they make lesbians options. Okay maybe, but the truth is that you love also female characters and you need to share them.

The intentions are almost impossible to judge, since no one will ever know what their intentions really are. However the result, matters enormously. If you liked Liara, that's what counts and not what were Bioware's intentions. If the quality is there, who cares. Leliana, was intended to be lesbian first, I don't care, I love her romance with a male warden I don't care if Sheryl's intentions were first for lesbian gamers.

There were already many f / f ptions, while there were none with M / m options. + the fact, everyone is complaining that ooooh bioware loves lesbian action for straight male gamer. Yeap, It killed pretty much the idea to add others options.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 01 mars 2012 - 08:53 .

[catabuca]

makenzieshepard wrote...

catabuca wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

So basically, all I have is Cortez since I killed Kaidan. Thanks Bioware, I appreciate it! <_<

I wish Vega was also available, but don't you like Cortez?  He's also great! 

I think it's more that there are numerous f/f choices, and the one guaranteed m/m choice that everyone will have in their game isn't even a full squad member. Well, that's how I see it anyway.

It just leaves it feeling a little like an empty gesture, when the decks are still stacked, as they always have been, in favour of hot chicks.

Hot chicks for straight men.  Look I love Liara but the reason she, Kelly and Diana are open to men is because well as you said hot chicks. 

I get that some of you don't care about intentions, only results but intentions do matter to a lot of people including me.  I'm happy to see Samantha and I will  make a final judgement on her romance after  I see if for myself but there are some suspect overtones our new F/F romance.  I mean the two new options don't do bubkiss for the largest demographic so on that front the gay guys got more and ya'll kinda even deserve it so I'm happy for you.  But please don't act like the F/F romances to date have been for the lesbian/bi girl communities benefit.

I've never been under that illusion. The f/f was, from the very start, there for the guys. The very existence of Liara as a mono-gendered hot blue space babe was for some easy titillation, aimed purely and squarely at the male gaze. It was mighty handy that arguments could be made that BioWare are awesome for allowing teh gay in their games, but the way Liara's status as female was consistently undermined made it clear that she wasn't there to fulfill the role of a same-gendered love interest for gay and bisexual women gamers, but was just there to look like a woman for men.

I'm really happy that manSheps get 2 same-gendered LIs this time around. And I'm very sad that womanSheps don't get Ashley as an LI (or so it seems). The introduction of Cortez and Traynor are great additions to the game, and should be celebrated for what they are. That doesn't mean the handling of the whole situation in general, for either gender, is perfect, far from it. Gay manSheps are still being short-changed because, if Kaidan is dead, they don't get a squad mate as an LI; gay womenSheps are being short-changed because there continue to be overtones of "2 chicks are hot, that's the main reason we're showing this stuff," which underpins the continued misogyny that abounds throughout popular culture.

It's not a competition to see who has been most hard done to here. It's not "this" or "that"; it's all of it.

[FoxHound109]

Also, I don't think this situation is anywhere near fair.

I don't see why straight male Shepard has so many options and gay male (AND female) Shepard has (have) so little. Because we're a minority? Yeah, no. Not acceptable.

I also don't see how it's fair that I'm being punished for killing off Kaidan when I had no idea that he would ever be bisexual. If I played as a straight character I could have predicted saving any of the other L.I.'s for obvious reasons. As a straight maleShep I could kept Miranda safe, for example, because I knew she was available and probably would be in the following game, etc. Meanwhile, I had no idea that Kaidan would be an option so I offed him because Ashley was a better choice at the time. I don't regret saving Ashley, but I would have liked to have had the knowledge to make the proper decision. This is retroactive and unfair.

The ME team has been unfair to its S/S fans, especially male ones. Do they HAVE to be fair? No, they don't, but I also don't have to condone their actions nor do I have to give them my money. Pretty simple.

[Espurr]

Sylvianus wrote...

makenzieshepard wrote...

catabuca wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

So basically, all I have is Cortez since I killed Kaidan. Thanks Bioware, I appreciate it! <_<

I wish Vega was also available, but don't you like Cortez?  He's also great! 

I think it's more that there are numerous f/f choices, and the one guaranteed m/m choice that everyone will have in their game isn't even a full squad member. Well, that's how I see it anyway.

It just leaves it feeling a little like an empty gesture, when the decks are still stacked, as they always have been, in favour of hot chicks.

Hot chicks for straight men.  Look I love Liara but the reason she, Kelly and Diana are open to men is because well as you said hot chicks. 

I get that some of you don't care about intentions, only results but intentions do matter to a lot of people including me.  I'm happy to see Samantha and I will  make a final judgement on her romance after  I see if for myself but there are some suspect overtones our new F/F romance.  I mean the two new options don't do bubkiss for the largest demographic so on that front the gay guys got more and ya'll kinda even deserve it so I'm happy for you.  But please don't act like the F/F romances to date have been for the lesbian/bi girl communities benefit.

This is this kind of argument I see everywhere that play against lesbians and I will never understand. I am convinced myself.

You ( lesbians on the bsn ) complain all the time that bioware is developing lesbian options. You accuse them of wanting to please straight male gamers, each time they make lesbians options. Okay maybe, but the truth is that you love also female characters and you need to share them.

The intentions are almost impossible to judge, since no one will ever know what their intentions really are. However the result, matters enormously. If you liked Liara, that's what counts and not what were Bioware's intentions. If the quality is there, who cares. Leliana, was intended to be lesbian, I don't care, I love her romance with a male warden I don't care if Sheryl's intentions were first for lesbian gamers.

There are already many f / f ptions, while there were none with M / m options. + the fact, everyone is complaining that ooooh bioware loves lesbian action for straight male gamer. Yeap, It kills pretty much the idea to add others options.

I think the argument is mostly coming up in this context because some people (not all, just a few) are trying to say that we're just being whiners by being unhappy that Ashley isn't available.

[AmuHav]

Gah, guys, when did this suddenly turn us against each other :S what on earth is happening. I thought we were all supporting each other!

Cant we all get along? Peace and love, man, peace and love!

[LoveAsThouWilt]

FoxHound109 wrote...

Also, I don't think this situation is anywhere near fair.

I don't see why straight male Shepard has so many options and gay male (AND female) Shepard has (have) so little. Because we're a minority? Yeah, no. Not acceptable.

I also don't see how it's fair that I'm being punished for killing off Kaidan when I had no idea that he would ever be bisexual. If I played as a straight character I could have predicted saving any of the other L.I.'s for obvious reasons. As a straight maleShep I could kept Miranda safe, for example, because I knew she was available and probably would be in the following game, etc. Meanwhile, I had no idea that Kaidan would be an option so I offed him because Ashley was a better choice at the time. I don't regret saving Ashley, but I would have liked to have had the knowledge to make the proper decision. This is retroactive and unfair.

The ME team has been unfair to its S/S fans, especially male ones. Do they HAVE to be fair? No, they don't, but I also don't have to condone their actions nor do I have to give them my money. Pretty simple.

Hence when I make my own damn game It'll be fair across the board, all with well developed NPCs with romances that play a role integral to the main plot, but also whom you choose can effect the plot directly as well.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

SolidBeast wrote...

Stop with the ending spoilers. I did NOT need to know what I had to do to avoid whatever the **** happens in the end.

This. I shouldn't have to leave the forums entirely to avoid endgame spoilers.

[katerinafm]

Sorry! I was trying to be vague (and I'm mostly making assumptions). So sorry x_x

FoxHound109 wrote...

katerinafm wrote...

Yeah but doesn't he say that only if you approach him and talk to him? Most fans that don't want the gayz in their game would avoid talking to him throughout the entire game if they already know that he is romanceable by mShep.

This. Unless he outright says it, then it's pretty much a problem. Meanwhile, the DA team made several options available AND had Anders hit on maleHawke through the story. The Mass Effect team wishes it had HALF the courage of the DA team.

bas_kon wrote...
I get you why you're upset, I really get it. But Kaidan has always being the most wanted returning male character, and male character in general for s/s, afaik. So I don't think it's a safe choice, but giving most of m/m fans what they want.
In fact, James wouldn't make anyone from Recon Team complain, since he is a new character and they don't care about them yet.
Now if you told me that Vega should have had Cortez' romance arc, and have been made totally gay instead of adding another NPC and having him be a quasi-romance (don't know if he's bi), I would agree with you.
But I, like so many others, am happy to get Kaidan, because we wanted to romance him since we first saw him in the cockpit of SR1.

No, he was a safe choice. I don't care what Recon Team says; if you honestly believe his argument was about character integrity, then you're completely missing the obvious problem. Kaidan is the safe choice because he can be dead, and the one game where you are FORCED to deal with him (Mass Effect 1) never shows his bisexuality. So basically, if I'm a homophobe and don't want any "gay" in my game I can easily pretend that Kaidan is straight, kill him off in ME, and then carry on with the game as if I'm right. He's not a truly bisexual character: he is optionally bisexual. If Cortez is anything like Kelly, then I'm pretty sure you can avoid him altogether.

Yeah, pretty sure both him and Sam are completely avoidable (or is Sam more story related? Haven't checked). And the only time you will hear Steve speak if you haven't talked to him would be in the shuttle (like in the demo).

As for the VS, new and old players have the ability to either go back and save Ashley or just pick the VS survivor from the start of ME3.

[FoxHound109]

*Sigh* This is why, hate it all you want, I enjoyed DA II so much more than ME 2. Hawke felt "mine" because I had choices, many of them, right down to whom he chose to share his love with. It was the first time I ever played a video game and felt like I was playing a gay hero. Shepard will never feel quite as "mine" as Hawke does. It's a shame.

Modifié par FoxHound109, 01 mars 2012 - 08:59 .

[Espurr]

AmuHav wrote...

Gah, guys, when did this suddenly turn us against each other :S what on earth is happening. I thought we were all supporting each other!

Cant we all get along? Peace and love, man, peace and love!

Lol yeah I don't even know. I thought Ash fans were being angry/sad at Bioware but happy for the Kaiden fans, and the Kaiden fans were celebrating (deservedly!) but sympathetic towards the Ash fans. Lets go back to that.

[Maugrim]

Sylvanius you really have no idea what you are talking about.



I posted that in another thread ten, that's 10 months ago. It has and always will be my position.That doesn't mean Bioware is immune from criticism on how they implement and marketing all things s/s end of story. So knock it off with the generalization "you lesbians". Also a little FYI some of them have vehemently disagreed with me elsewhere and are disagreeing in posts above and below yours.

Modifié par makenzieshepard, 01 mars 2012 - 09:02 .

[Blacklash93]

Sylvianus wrote...

This is this kind of argument I see everywhere that play against lesbians and I will never understand. I am convinced myself.

You ( lesbians on the bsn ) complain all the time that bioware is developing lesbian options. You accuse them of wanting to please straight male gamers, each time they make lesbians options. Okay maybe, but the truth is that you love also female characters and you need to share them.

The intentions are almost impossible to judge, since no one will ever know what their intentions really are. However the result, matters enormously. If you liked Liara, that's what counts and not what were Bioware's intentions. If the quality is there, who cares. Leliana, was intended to be lesbian first, I don't care, I love her romance with a male warden I don't care if Sheryl's intentions were first for lesbian gamers.

This.

If you enjoy it then why should you care about the intentions behind it?

Modifié par Blacklash93, 01 mars 2012 - 09:02 .

[jef379]

 *Puts hands on eyes and sings*

*Tries to unsee and unthink veiled spoilers*

I usually like flower fields, but this one looks awful. So you can't S/S romance someone without him/her ending in the ragweed with you? Shame. What's wrong with you Bioware ? Anyways, I don't wan't to know what happens D: *runs away*

I am VERY happy with Kaidan romance , but if I remember correctly, ME 1 had M!Shep/Kaidan lines, correct ? I hope they didn't wimp out again ... Of course it'd be a little stupid now, since Cortez is already confirmed, but you never know. If you do this to me Bioware ... I'll cleverly disguise hemlock and send it to you. Or worse, I'll bribe Kathy Griffin to b******t you (if that dosen't scare them, I don't know what will)

[Espurr]

FoxHound109 wrote...

*Sigh* This is why, hate it all you want, I enjoyed DA II so much more than ME 2. Hawke felt "mine" because I had choices, many of them, right down to whom he chose to share his love with. It was the first time I ever played a video game and felt like I was playing a gay hero. Shepard will never feel quite as "mine" as Hawke does. It's a shame.

Aaah same. I miss my Hawke.

[catabuca]

FoxHound109 wrote...

*Sigh* This is why, hate it all you want, I enjoyed DA II so much more than ME 2. Hawke felt "mine" because I had choices, many of them, right down to whom he chose to share his love with. It was the first time I ever played a video game and felt like I was playing a gay hero. Shepard will never feel quite as "mine" as Hawke does. It's a shame.

I completely and utterly agree with you. Straight, gay and bisexual Hawkes of both playable genders were given completely equal status, each romance was given equal time and care, and the DA team did their very, very best to make every person feel like they mattered.

For all its narrative and gameplay flaws, DA2 will always be special to me for that reason alone.

[FoxHound109]

Blacklash93 wrote...

This.

If you enjoy it then why the hell should you care about the intentions behind it?

For the same reason people should learn to differentiate between a harmless joke and a racist statement? Intention is everything. Literally. Not that I factually KNOW the intentions of Bioware, mind you; it's an educated guess. But yes, like it or not, intentions matter more than actual results in most cases.

[katerinafm]

FoxHound109 wrote...

*Sigh* This is why, hate it all you want, I enjoyed DA II so much more than ME 2. Hawke felt "mine" because I had choices, many of them, right down to whom he chose to share his love with. It was the first time I ever played a video game and felt like I was playing a gay hero. Shepard will never feel quite as "mine" as Hawke does. It's a shame.

Hm...I agree. Mass effect is a better game but as far as playing the character however you want goes, Hawke does a way better job at it (for me just the fact that I can make Hawke say a joke without being considered evil *cough*renegadeShepard*cough* is awesome)

[Ricvenart]

dewayne31 wrote...
they should of made a new bi male character instead of converting Kaidan...i dont think it right to turn one vs bi not the other one.

Seriously going to make this claim, here of all places. The one we've repeatedly dismissed because out of the 4 options you have one isn't the one you wanted?

Let's ignore the fact that they had backlash for making Kaidan and Ashley so similar in 2 and the fact it may cause more rage then this already will, just toss more fuel on the fire.

I don't remember Back-stabbing on the Schedule for Today.

@Solid: You okay? Seem ready to blow.

[Frozen83]

Ricvenart wrote...

@Solid: You okay? Seem ready to blow.

Awww... The sweetest moment on this forum . M.

Modifié par Frozen83, 01 mars 2012 - 09:06 .

[FoxHound109]

katerinafm wrote...

FoxHound109 wrote...

*Sigh* This is why, hate it all you want, I enjoyed DA II so much more than ME 2. Hawke felt "mine" because I had choices, many of them, right down to whom he chose to share his love with. It was the first time I ever played a video game and felt like I was playing a gay hero. Shepard will never feel quite as "mine" as Hawke does. It's a shame.

Hm...I agree. Mass effect is a better game but as far as playing the character however you want goes, Hawke does a way better job at it (for me just the fact that I can make Hawke say a joke without being considered evil *cough*renegadeShepard*cough* is awesome)

Hawke has always been a superior character to Shepard in every way. This is just the final straw on the camel's back which proves it for me. His/her personality has always been more interesting, more developed, and STILL full of more options for the player. DA II fails in a lot of respects, but the game still manages to create some magical situations that Mass Effect as a series has been missing. Keep in mind that ME is my favorite series this generation, so there you go...

[SolidBeast]

Luca Stern wrote...

So Bioware assumed all fans of male same-sex romance
A) have saved Kaidan
have made another playthrough all the way from ME to ME2 without BW having actually confirmed Kaidan to be bi
C) are just going to lose out, if they don't figure out to pick Kaidan in character creation in case of a New Game
D) will make another ME+ME2 playthrough after ME3 is released and bi Kaidan confirmed before playing ME3
E) are willing to just give up their possibly years old playthroughs for a New Game with a Kaidan romance or
F) will settle for Kaidan in a New Game or new ME+ME2 import after their first, main/canon ME3 playthrough

It's all so terribly filled with variables. For most ManSheps Kaidan is probably dead. Hateful extremists still have to deal with Steve and one of their issues is that Shepard can now be gay, even if their Shepard isn't. Like I said before, if Bioware would seriously worry about those kind of people, they wouldn't include gay romance in the first place.
Why invest time, money, effort into extra writing, recording, animating cutscenes just to prevent a lot of people from seeing this content? Meanwhile James being a new character is always alive regardless of who died in a previous playthrough or who you pick in character creation. I'm not arguing whether James should be bi over Kaidan. I'm just trying to figure out the reason why Bioware would decide to go this way.

a) is not necessary to assume since he can be chosen to be alive in a new game, therefore, whoever hasn't played the previous games and wants a male squadmate (for romance reasons or not) will choose him, and those that have played ME and were holding out for Kaidan saved him anyway and/or can do the same. If they didn't then...they weren't interested in him, I guess? Perfectly valid. No matter how many options there are, people will prefer some and dislike others.
You can also argue that people will lose out on something if they do just one playthrough. For those that don't pick Kaidan, they'll just miss out on Kaidan. Doesn't mean he's not there. And if they're really interested, they can read up on it and fix that. Most of your points are rather similar, actually.
As for BioWare not being worried, I agree.
And finally as for why, because maybe a lot of s/s fans wanted Kaidan for years unlike James and they wanted to do it as a service to the fans (just like any other romance, really)?

[jlb524]

Eternal Dust wrote...
For me, Ashley is different because in ME1 she wasn't sexualized and portrayed in such a way that is considered fan-service. A lot of people hate her because she has strong opinions; some don't even find her physically attractive. As much as I like Liara, the asari are so blantantly created for titillation it's ridiculous. A race of blue alien chicks that can mate with anyone regardless of gender or race? And they have boooobs and are background strippers in most clubs in the ME universe. Oh my!

makenzieshepard wrote...
TBH they wouldn't be hugely different I think, mostly it would be in the overtones in the ones like Kelly and Samtha the stripper  bits and the shower scene might be differnt.  It's hard to find anything wrong with something in isolation but string many incidents toghther and you suspect things are not what they seem.  And no I don't think Ash would've been inherently for the gay/bi community I don't like not having her but that's not the issue here.  And again TBH I wouldn't be complaining most likely because I would've got what I wanted and damn the rest, I am only human!

So it comes down to the 'sexy' thing?

I just worry about going down the 'lesbian's don't like sex/sexy stuff' road.  Though, I get were you are coming from.

I'd be troubled if the f/f romances were nothing but 'the sexy stuff'.

[dewayne31]

Ricvenart wrote...

dewayne31 wrote...
they should of made a new bi male character instead of converting Kaidan...i dont think it right to turn one vs bi not the other one.

Seriously going to make this claim, here of all places. The one we've repeatedly dismissed because out of the 4 options you have one isn't the one you wanted?

Let's ignore the fact that they had backlash for making Kaidan and Ashley so similar in 2 and the fact it may cause more rage then this already will, just toss more fuel on the fire.

I don't remember Back-stabbing on the Schedule for Today.

@Solid: You okay? Seem ready to blow.

I said my peace that why i haven't posted anything else in the thread. and after probably wont again......im shock at how fast this thread has gone down hill. yes i'm upset bout ash but i'm not going to cry bout it. it wont change it. but who knows......yes im fine with ash being straight but what irk is how they treated kaidan and decied not ash............sorry i'm just little annooyed at this thread going downhill. i thought this was onme of better thread on bsn

i didnt mean backstab anyone. i was always on fence withash being bi. but it killed me not knowing so i asked. and from i read in acouple threads noone for certain still

Modifié par dewayne31, 01 mars 2012 - 09:14 .

[Carfax]

FoxHound109 wrote...

Also, I don't think this situation is anywhere near fair.

I don't see why straight male Shepard has so many options and gay male (AND female) Shepard has (have) so little. Because we're a minority? Yeah, no. Not acceptable.

How many gays and lesbians do you think play Mass Effect?  Not many to be sure.  If gays/bisexuals are 4% of the general population as surveys state, then it's conceivable that at most 2% of the people that bought these games are gay/bisexual, but probably much less than 2%..

The overwhelming majority of Bioware's consumers are heterosexual men, and it's a good business practice to cater the most to your largest consumer base.

Gays and lesbians should be thankful they are getting this much if you ask me.

I also don't see how it's fair that I'm being punished for killing off Kaidan when I had no idea that he would ever be bisexual.

Wait a sec, so your magical gaydar didn't detect the gayness oozing off of Kaidan?  How is that possible?! 

According to many in this thread, Kaidan is as gay as they come!