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[PMC65]

ArawnNox wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...
It's also quite illogical to seeing characters being bi/homosexual without an ingame basis for that assumption. That goes not just for seeing them as straight but any other variation.

You yourself say that personal views and preferences are not based in fact/logic. That HAS to go both ways.

But it does. The point is that people who want some/one of the old characters to be available for s/s romance don't say "it is confirmed/100% canon they're bi based on in-game evidence". We say there's nothing in the games that would rule out this possibility, while most people who want them to be straight keep saying how lack of confirmation/denial of their bisexuality by themselves is the evidence they're straight.

Basically, both sides are using the same piece of evidence (or lack thereof) and claiming it means their side is correct. Thus, the discussion goes nowhere and we argue in circles for 70+ pages.

I've thrown up twice on my shoes  ... Jack & Grunt saw and now they won't let me live it down. Liara also banned me from this page but she is busy with shadow broker stuff so I snuck back. Same arguments being debated ... but it has been much kinder and on topic for the most part that I can see.

Between Siansonea II & other members (myself not included ) this thread is much better behaved. Unless I missed something while locked away.

[BrandNewMan]

IsaacShep wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...
I think we have a misunderstanding. When I asked for alternatives, I wanted suggestions on characters that couldn't previously be in a relationship with, since that was the point in me listing Joker and Kelly.

Kaidan couldn't previously be in a relationship with ManShep, wasn't even possible to suggest it (and potentially get turned down). So his state/history with ManShep is as blank in the romantic departement as between ManShep and Anderson.

I never said manshep. Just characters that you couldn't be in a relationship with in the game. You can romance  Kaidan if you play femshep.

[PMC65]

Montezuma IV wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...

Montezuma IV wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...

Which ones are you talking about? You have Wrex, Grunt, Mordin, Samara, Legion, and two characters that require dlc.

I personally.....want Kaidan.

I think we have a misunderstanding. When I asked for alternatives, I wanted suggestions on characters that couldn't previously be in a relationship with, since that was the point in me listing Joker and Kelly.

Sorry!

But I don't think there's any good options for that road anyway. None that I'd want.

Can I add Ashley, Miranda ... hell, even Tali. She crushes on Shepard period.
Oh, and Aria? No wait, not Aria .. she would not give Shepard a choice if she was an option.
Shepard: "Aria ...."
Aria grabs Shepard, motions for her gaurds to leave, throws Shepard on the couch ...
Aria: "Today, you get to f*** with Omega!"
Shepard: "mommy ...."

[shepskisaac]

BrandNewMan wrote...
I never said manshep. Just characters that you couldn't be in a relationship with in the game. You can romance  Kaidan if you play femshep.

I know, but I'm not sure why the possibility to romance him as FemShep in ME1 would rule out ManShep romance in ME3.

[BrandNewMan]

IsaacShep wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...
I never
said manshep. Just characters that you couldn't be in a relationship
with in the game. You can romance  Kaidan if you play femshep.

I know, but I'm not sure why the possibility to romance him as FemShep in ME1 would rule out ManShep romance in ME3.

Where did I say rule out?

Edit:
To clarify, this all goes back to me saying that while I myself wouldn't have a problem with a previous romance option being bi in ME3, I'd rather not to avoid the complaints of other people. Personally, I see little benefit in having an old romance option be bi in comparison to a new one. It seems there would be fewer complaints if it would just be a new character.

Modifié par BrandNewMan, 23 juin 2011 - 04:04 .

[PMC65]

Montezuma IV wrote...

PMC65 wrote...


Can I add Ashley, Miranda ... hell, even Tali. She crushes on Shepard period.
Oh, and Aria? No wait, not Aria .. she would not give Shepard a choice if she was an option.
Shepard: "Aria ...."
Aria grabs Shepard, motions for her gaurds to leave, throws Shepard on the couch ...
Aria: "Today, you get to f*** with Omega!"
Shepard: "mommy ...."

Hey!.....We all know it's not rape if you like it......

LOL!!!!!! I guess as long as I can have a smoke and free drink after

[ArawnNox]

IsaacShep wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...
Basically, both sides are using the same piece of evidence (or lack thereof) and claiming it means their side is correct. Thus, the discussion goes nowhere and we argue in circles for 70+ pages.

No. There's a big difference here. One side is saying the lack of evidence makes it a fact the characters are straight while the other side is saying that it is simply illogical to say lack of evidence is a proof in itself.

That sounds like the same point being used on both sides, to me.

[78stonewobble]

IsaacShep wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...
It's also quite illogical to seeing characters being bi/homosexual without an ingame basis for that assumption. That goes not just for seeing them as straight but any other variation.

You yourself say that personal views and preferences are not based in fact/logic. That HAS to go both ways.

But it does. The point is that people who want some/one of the old characters to be available for s/s romance don't say "it is confirmed/100% canon they're bi based on in-game evidence". We say there's nothing in the games that would rule out this possibility, while most people who want them to be straight keep saying how lack of confirmation/denial of their bisexuality by themselves is the evidence they're straight.

BrandNewMan wrote...
Alright. Any suggestions?

Kaidan, 1 new male squaddie, 1 new female squaddie + Liara romance continuation and we're good.

Ah I might have misunderstood some of your posts then. *sigh* sorry about that. Poor sleep is really starting to impair some of my higher brainfunctions these days.

I think my point was more that if there is no logical argument for keeping the characters straight (atleast to think they're straight) then there is also no logical argument for wanting to change the characters.

You could say that giving players more choice is a logical argument for providing more LI options but that is in essence just as based in a personal preference for some people.

Other people could argue that it affects or detracts from their gaming experience since it would change their allready existing interpretations of the characters and/or just a general dislike of homosexuals/besexuals (which is just sad).

It just seem like people in the thread here that are very much in favour for the change of existing characters "dismiss" other peoples oppinions because they're not based in some logical fact but just personal preference. While kinda forgetting they're own preferences for the game and change really isn't logical based either.

Just IMHO...

Well I know that my pet peeve with eg. an all character bi change is really much subjective based but that's no reason to completely dismiss and not care about my oppinion. Afterall I accept other people's oppinion on the matter, took that into account and decided that the issue weren't as important to me as it was to others.

EDIT/PS: Maybe it's because I think that you can't do anything in the world without makind someone somewhere worse. We can just hope that we all in all do make a more positive contribution when all is said and done.

Modifié par 78stonewobble, 23 juin 2011 - 04:28 .

[ArawnNox]

Montezuma IV wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...

Montezuma IV wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...

Which ones are you talking about? You have Wrex, Grunt, Mordin, Samara, Legion, and two characters that require dlc.

I personally.....want Kaidan.

I think we have a misunderstanding. When I asked for alternatives, I wanted suggestions on characters that couldn't previously be in a relationship with, since that was the point in me listing Joker and Kelly.

Sorry!

But I don't think there's any good options for that road anyway. None that I'd want.

I know a few people have mentioned... ah crud, what's her name... the asari who was inside the Thorium.

You know, thinking about it, it would be interesting if they opened up romance subplots with major NPCs, not neccissarily squad mates. Like Gabby, for instance. Or a REAL romance for Kelly.
Hmm.. this has potential...

[78stonewobble]

PMC65 wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...
It's also quite illogical to seeing characters being bi/homosexual without an ingame basis for that assumption. That goes not just for seeing them as straight but any other variation.

You yourself say that personal views and preferences are not based in fact/logic. That HAS to go both ways.

But it does. The point is that people who want some/one of the old characters to be available for s/s romance don't say "it is confirmed/100% canon they're bi based on in-game evidence". We say there's nothing in the games that would rule out this possibility, while most people who want them to be straight keep saying how lack of confirmation/denial of their bisexuality by themselves is the evidence they're straight.

Basically, both sides are using the same piece of evidence (or lack thereof) and claiming it means their side is correct. Thus, the discussion goes nowhere and we argue in circles for 70+ pages.

I've thrown up twice on my shoes  ... Jack & Grunt saw and now they won't let me live it down. Liara also banned me from this page but she is busy with shadow broker stuff so I snuck back. Same arguments being debated ... but it has been much kinder and on topic for the most part that I can see.

Between Siansonea II & other members (myself not included ) this thread is much better behaved. Unless I missed something while locked away.

Last part I totally agree on... I have seen way worse.

Just because people disagree on something whatever doesn't have to mean hate or anything. I'd have a beer/drink/coffee with pretty much anybody in the debate. Then we can argue politics loudly there too

[AngelicMachinery]

ArawnNox wrote...

Montezuma IV wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...

Montezuma IV wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...

Which ones are you talking about? You have Wrex, Grunt, Mordin, Samara, Legion, and two characters that require dlc.

I personally.....want Kaidan.

I think we have a misunderstanding. When I asked for alternatives, I wanted suggestions on characters that couldn't previously be in a relationship with, since that was the point in me listing Joker and Kelly.

Sorry!

But I don't think there's any good options for that road anyway. None that I'd want.

I know a few people have mentioned... ah crud, what's her name... the asari who was inside the Thorium.

You know, thinking about it, it would be interesting if they opened up romance subplots with major NPCs, not neccissarily squad mates. Like Gabby, for instance. Or a REAL romance for Kelly.
Hmm.. this has potential...

I myself think it's a bit of a bad idea,  but,  for some reason people are swooning of Shiala and Joker.  I just think its a bit weak...

[ArawnNox]

Why would it be a bad idea? I mean, heck, Shiala makes a pass at Shep in ME2 (if she's alive).

[Siansonea]

BrandNewMan wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

BrandNewMan wrote...
I never
said manshep. Just characters that you couldn't be in a relationship
with in the game. You can romance  Kaidan if you play femshep.

I know, but I'm not sure why the possibility to romance him as FemShep in ME1 would rule out ManShep romance in ME3.

Where did I say rule out?

Edit:
To clarify, this all goes back to me saying that while I myself wouldn't have a problem with a previous romance option being bi in ME3, I'd rather not to avoid the complaints of other people. Personally, I see little benefit in having an old romance option be bi in comparison to a new one. It seems there would be fewer complaints if it would just be a new character.

I understand what you're asking BrandNewMan.


Let's face it, existing LI characters as s/s LIs are by no means a foregone conclusion. BioWare has neither confirmed nor denied that they will go this route. If they don't, we should be thinking about what other existing characters might work, and what attributes a new character should have if that's the way they decide to go. We can debate the logical progression of the existing LIs all we want, but if BioWare decides not to do that, well, we need a Plan B.


Personally I like Joker and Kelly as candidates, I wouldn't mind that they're not squadmates, although I would like it if they had cutscene interaction in the storyline. And just because they're not on the combat wheel doesn't mean they can't come along on a mission or two, really they should do this more in general. You can have a whole group of people with you even if you're only 'driving' two squadmates. I really think Joker could be a good candidate, especially if he somehow was able to manage his brittle bone disease more fully. Mordin and Dr. Chakwas have to be on the case to help him out. And Joker is canonically alive in all saves, he's been there from the very beginning, and he's a character that is well-liked in the community. Plus, he's kind of cute. 


Kelly is cute, she's nice, she's well-adjusted, and she's already shown s/s interest in Shepard. If she's the s/s option for Shepard, well at least there is a bit of continuity from the second game. The only thing that bothers me about Kelly is that she can die in ME2. I would also hope that they significantly expand her character, right now there's really not a whole lot we know about her. 


Unfortunately there aren't a whole lot of other existing non-LI human characters to choose from. On the Normandy there's only Ken, Gaby, Gardener, and Dr. Chakwas, and honestly I'd rather see Ken and Gaby end up together. And I think Dr. C should end up with Admiral Hackett or Captain Anderson.


I really don't have a preference for aliens, so someone else is going to have to make suggestions for possible alien s/s LIs. Just not my thing, though I know other people prefer the alien romances. 

[AngelicMachinery]

ArawnNox wrote...

Why would it be a bad idea? I mean, heck, Shiala makes a pass at Shep in ME2 (if she's alive).

Mostly because the fact they are minor characters.  They don't really effect the story much,  I don't mind the flings but I think characters that are intended as love interests should be within the main squad.  

[ArawnNox]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

Why would it be a bad idea? I mean, heck, Shiala makes a pass at Shep in ME2 (if she's alive).

Mostly because the fact they are minor characters.  They don't really effect the story much,  I don't mind the flings but I think characters that are intended as love interests should be within the main squad.  

Well, what I'm saying is, just because they're a minor character in past games, and not somone who can participate in combat, doesn't mean they can't play a large enough role to make them a viable LI. Though, missing out on that large chunk of gameplay is a problem, I'll give you that.

[Siansonea]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

Why would it be a bad idea? I mean, heck, Shiala makes a pass at Shep in ME2 (if she's alive).

Mostly because the fact they are minor characters.  They don't really effect the story much,  I don't mind the flings but I think characters that are intended as love interests should be within the main squad.  

I adore Shiala as a character. There's not much of her in the first game or the second game, she's a woefully underutilized character. But for s/s romance, I'd prefer a human. Shiala is an asari, and presumably they're all "bisexual" since gender is something of a foreign concept for asari. A fully-developed s/s story between two human females is what I'd like to see.

[AngelicMachinery]

ArawnNox wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

Why would it be a bad idea? I mean, heck, Shiala makes a pass at Shep in ME2 (if she's alive).

Mostly because the fact they are minor characters.  They don't really effect the story much,  I don't mind the flings but I think characters that are intended as love interests should be within the main squad.  

Well, what I'm saying is, just because they're a minor character in past games, and not somone who can participate in combat, doesn't mean they can't play a large enough role to make them a viable LI. Though, missing out on that large chunk of gameplay is a problem, I'll give you that.

I do doubt though that they'll suddenly be upgraded to major players,  while it's possible I suspect that they'll still be at cameo level outside of Chakwas and Joker.

[78stonewobble]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...
It's also quite illogical to seeing characters being bi/homosexual without an ingame basis for that assumption. That goes not just for seeing them as straight but any other variation.

You yourself say that personal views and preferences are not based in fact/logic. That HAS to go both ways.

But it does. The point is that people who want some/one of the old characters to be available for s/s romance don't say "it is confirmed/100% canon they're bi based on in-game evidence". We say there's nothing in the games that would rule out this possibility, while most people who want them to be straight keep saying how lack of confirmation/denial of their bisexuality by themselves is the evidence they're straight.

Basically, both sides are using the same piece of evidence (or lack thereof) and claiming it means their side is correct. Thus, the discussion goes nowhere and we argue in circles for 70+ pages.

Circular arguments are fun though!

Thankfully I just made coffee. Anyone needs a refiller for the next merry go round?

[78stonewobble]

AngelicMachinery wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

Why would it be a bad idea? I mean, heck, Shiala makes a pass at Shep in ME2 (if she's alive).

Mostly because the fact they are minor characters.  They don't really effect the story much,  I don't mind the flings but I think characters that are intended as love interests should be within the main squad.  

Well, what I'm saying is, just because they're a minor character in past games, and not somone who can participate in combat, doesn't mean they can't play a large enough role to make them a viable LI. Though, missing out on that large chunk of gameplay is a problem, I'll give you that.

I do doubt though that they'll suddenly be upgraded to major players,  while it's possible I suspect that they'll still be at cameo level outside of Chakwas and Joker.

I do like the minor characters and think they could use a bit more detail and conversation ingame. Wouldn't want them to become major characters though. Well hmm ... we can't have joker going in as squadmate can we?

[AngelicMachinery]

Siansonea II wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

Why would it be a bad idea? I mean, heck, Shiala makes a pass at Shep in ME2 (if she's alive).

Mostly because the fact they are minor characters.  They don't really effect the story much,  I don't mind the flings but I think characters that are intended as love interests should be within the main squad.  

I adore Shiala as a character. There's not much of her in the first game or the second game, she's a woefully underutilized character. But for s/s romance, I'd prefer a human. Shiala is an asari, and presumably they're all "bisexual" since gender is something of a foreign concept for asari. A fully-developed s/s story between two human females is what I'd like to see.

I agree,  I myself really do want to see a human female open as a same sex option.    I really like Liara,  but, I'm a fan of the humans.

[Siansonea]

PMC65 wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

IsaacShep wrote...

78stonewobble wrote...
It's also quite illogical to seeing characters being bi/homosexual without an ingame basis for that assumption. That goes not just for seeing them as straight but any other variation.

You yourself say that personal views and preferences are not based in fact/logic. That HAS to go both ways.

But it does. The point is that people who want some/one of the old characters to be available for s/s romance don't say "it is confirmed/100% canon they're bi based on in-game evidence". We say there's nothing in the games that would rule out this possibility, while most people who want them to be straight keep saying how lack of confirmation/denial of their bisexuality by themselves is the evidence they're straight.

Basically, both sides are using the same piece of evidence (or lack thereof) and claiming it means their side is correct. Thus, the discussion goes nowhere and we argue in circles for 70+ pages.

I've thrown up twice on my shoes  ... Jack & Grunt saw and now they won't let me live it down. Liara also banned me from this page but she is busy with shadow broker stuff so I snuck back. Same arguments being debated ... but it has been much kinder and on topic for the most part that I can see.

Between Siansonea II & other members (myself not included ) this thread is much better behaved. Unless I missed something while locked away.

BTW, thanks for the shout-out. I do try to keep things goin' in a positive direction around here, and I've appreciated everyone who has helped maintain an accepting, friendly atmosphere.  We still get some crossed wires every now and then, but I hope that will lessen as we go forward. 

[AngelicMachinery]

78stonewobble wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

AngelicMachinery wrote...

ArawnNox wrote...

Why would it be a bad idea? I mean, heck, Shiala makes a pass at Shep in ME2 (if she's alive).

Mostly because the fact they are minor characters.  They don't really effect the story much,  I don't mind the flings but I think characters that are intended as love interests should be within the main squad.  

Well, what I'm saying is, just because they're a minor character in past games, and not somone who can participate in combat, doesn't mean they can't play a large enough role to make them a viable LI. Though, missing out on that large chunk of gameplay is a problem, I'll give you that.

I do doubt though that they'll suddenly be upgraded to major players,  while it's possible I suspect that they'll still be at cameo level outside of Chakwas and Joker.

I do like the minor characters and think they could use a bit more detail and conversation ingame. Wouldn't want them to become major characters though. Well hmm ... we can't have joker going in as squadmate can we?

If you get him some robot legs or a Proffessor X wheel chair perhaps...

[shepskisaac]

ArawnNox wrote...

Why would it be a bad idea? I mean, heck, Shiala makes a pass at Shep in ME2 (if she's alive).

Maybe it wouldn't be a bad idea with Shiala, because there's already Liara, but not with male s/s LI. At this point, gay guys will never have a real trilogy-spanning romance comparable to the romances straight/lesbian players can have with all the main full-squaddie LIs from the previous games. Which is why there should be a romance with an old male perma-squaddie as it would be the closest substitute for a full trilogy spanning romance that is possible with other LIs.