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♂♂ • ♀♀ For The Love — The Same-Sex Romance Discussion Thread **may contain spoilers**


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#22476
Mr. Ryder

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I was thinking about the mShep/Kaidan romance (but really, this is true for me about all the full-fledged romances, in general, I just happen to favor mShep/Kaidan): we only have the voices/.tlk files, right? So do we know what kind of scenes there are, aside from what they say? I guess what I'm asking is: I'm assuming there's a sex scene, right? That seems pretty standard, at least. What about a kiss though?

Really, I'd trade a sex scene for a kiss one any day. Does anyone else feel like that? Not that I'm against the sex scene, necessarily, it's more that I think a kiss scene would moreso exemplify what, at least I personally, would want to see out of the relationship. And not one like ME1 final romance scene, more like the one at the lockers, had it not been interrupted.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to mention, I've been lurking here, decided to finally make an account and figured I'd join in the discussion. Didn't want to seem too random coming in with these questions.

Modifié par Mr. Ryder, 03 mars 2012 - 09:37 .


#22477
BrianWilly

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Abispa wrote...

@ BrianWilly -- The MASSIVE flaw in your argument is that Bioware specifically writes their characters to be as open to player's head canons as possible. They are not the robots of Fable or Skyrim, but they are HARDLY fully developed. That is why "gay mods" are almost seamless when inserted into DA and ME. Except for one or two lines and the VA, the romances and other relationships as already written play well for either gender.

It's not just about romance. There are players who SWEAR that Ashley is racist. There are those who say she is religious and probably Christian. In fact she IS insome people's head canon. Not in mine. She mentions her distrust of alien governments in a political sense. She never mentions Jesus so I say she's Jewish.

Is Garrus a really a nice guy who wants to be toughed up by Shepard, or a tough guy who wants to be saved by a heroic Shepard? He's written so you can head canon him any way you want.

In DA:O a player can choose to believe that Morrigan is a lying witch who is playing the Warden for a sucker, or a poor child raised by an abusive mother and just wants to be loved? Again, she is written so you can choose.

Bioware basically gives ups skeletons to flesh out ourselves. To insist that YOUR head canon should be sacred is to miss the point of the Bioware RPG experience.

First off, I would disagree that Bioware specifically writes their characters to be as open to player's head canons as possible, and I've no idea why this is such a prevalent attitide.  What we do in our own heads is our own business, but they are no more "specific" about character fluidity (again, other than the player character) than any other piece of fiction out there, whether it's a TV show or movie or book or game.  You could "headcanon" that Harry Potter is secretly a nymphomaniacal guava juice space vampire because nothing in the book explicitly says that he isn't, sure, but that doesn't mean Rowling is specifically writing the character out for you to do that.  It doesn't make sense to me to cite this is as a specific BioWare narrative model.

For any piece of characterization that might be left open to the player's interpretation -- which, again, is unavoidable with all works of fiction -- there is a lot more that is set into narrative stone.  Our "headcanons" are limited to the scope of what BioWare presets into the storyline.  You can "headcanon" that Ashley is Christian or Jewish, but you cannot headcanon that she doesn't believe in God because she explicitly tells you that she does.  This isn't confined to the "Bioware RPG experience," it's just the way characterization works.  BioWare games aren't true sandboxes; there are hard and fast limits to how much you can "design" these characters in your head, and even harder and faster limits when it comes to designing them canonically.

Now, yes, when we're talking about sexuality it becomes a bit more complicated, because not only does sexuality not have anything to do with a preset personality, it's also completely feasible for someone to be revealed as LGBT when you previously assumed that they were straight.  And that's fine.  I have always supported the notion of Ash or Kaidan or anyone else revealing that they're attracted to the opposite sex even if they've never mentioned it before.

But as responses in this thread can attest, people are really interested in the ways that Kaidan's male romance differs from his female romance; we don't want either path to feel like something that they just threw in and switched some pronouns around as a design compromise.  People who are rooting for the "everyone is available for everyone!" model don't seem to understand that when they use terms like "convenient" and "head canons," that just brings up images of the hollow Skyrim/Fable method and makes the idea seem less attractive, not more so.  Not saying that we need entirely divergent romance storylines, but if a character is going to be attracted to both genders, then more care should be taken to make sure it's engaging and relatable, not less.

And the idea that any romanceable character should be "swappable" between gay, straight, or bi depending on the whims of the player...it's just far too much for me.  On top of being vaguely offensive (sexuality is not something you can choose to shut off or turn on if you don't like the one you have...again, maybe that's okay for shallow ciphers in other games but not for more realized characters that are meant to resemble real nuanced people, however dramatically), nothing in the mechanics of any of the Mass Effect games, or of any other BioWare game, suggests that this is the way their narrative operates.  In fact, the opposite is true; everything indicates that the world these games take place in, along with the characters within, are predetermined across all playthroughs...with the one differentiating factor being the player character and how his/her choices cause ripple affects across the landscape.  In fact, several storylines are shown to take place whether Shepard/The Warden/Hawke is aware of them or not.

We do not "choose" the predetermined traits or personalities of any of the other characters in the game in any way that affects their preexisting storyline, so why should sexuality be exempt?

Modifié par BrianWilly, 03 mars 2012 - 09:35 .


#22478
78stonewobble

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BrianWilly wrote...

First off, I would disagree that Bioware specifically writes their characters to be as open to player's head canons as possible, and I've no idea why this is such a prevalent attitide.  What we do in our own heads is our own business, but they are no more "specific" about character fluidity (again, other than the player character) than any other piece of fiction out there, whether it's a TV show or movie or book or game.  You could "headcanon" that Harry Potter is secretly a nymphomaniacal guava juice space vampire because nothing in the book explicitly says that he isn't, sure, but that doesn't mean Rowling is specifically writing the character out for you to do that.  It doesn't make sense to me to cite this is as a specific BioWare narrative model.

For any piece of characterization that might be left open to the player's interpretation -- which, again, is unavoidable with all works of fiction -- there is a lot more that is set into narrative stone.  Our "headcanons" are limited to the scope of what BioWare presets into the storyline.  You can "headcanon" that Ashley is Christian or Jewish, but you cannot headcanon that she doesn't believe in God because she explicitly tells you that she does.  This isn't confined to the "Bioware RPG experience," it's just the way characterization works.  BioWare games aren't true sandboxes; there are hard and fast limits to how much you can "design" these characters in your head, and even harder and faster limits when it comes to designing them canonically.

Now, yes, when we're talking about sexuality it becomes a bit more complicated, because not only does sexuality not have anything to do with a preset personality, it's also completely feasible for someone to be revealed as LGBT when you previously assumed that they were straight.  And that's fine.  I have always supported the notion of Ash or Kaidan or anyone else revealing that they're attracted to the opposite sex even if they've never mentioned it before.

But as responses in this thread can attest, people are really interested in the ways that Kaidan's male romance differs from his female romance; we don't want either path to feel like something that they just threw in and switched some pronouns around as a design compromise.  People who are rooting for the "everyone is available for everyone!" model don't seem to understand that when they use terms like "convenient" and "head canons," that just brings up images of the hollow Skyrim/Fable method and makes the idea seem less attractive, not more so.  Not saying that we need entirely divergent romance storylines, but if a character is going to be attracted to both genders, then more care should be taken to make sure it's engaging and relatable, not less.

And the idea that any romanceable character should be "swappable" between gay, straight, or bi depending on the whims of the player...it's just far too much for me.  On top of being vaguely offensive (sexuality is not something you can choose to shut off or turn on if you don't like the one you have...again, maybe that's okay for shallow ciphers in other games but not for more realized characters that are meant to resemble real nuanced people, however dramatically), nothing in the mechanics of any of the Mass Effect games, or of any other BioWare game, suggests that this is the way their narrative operates.  In fact, the opposite is true; everything indicates that the world these games take place in, along with the characters within, are predetermined across all playthroughs...with the one differentiating factor being the player character and how his/her choices cause ripple affects across the landscape.  In fact, several storylines are shown to take place whether Shepard/The Warden/Hawke is aware of them or not.

We do not "choose" the predetermined traits or personalities of any of the other characters in the game in any way that affects their preexisting storyline, so why should sexuality be exempt?


There's some good points in there and I tend to agree.

My own humble oppinion is the following:

I think it's good and about damn time that there is an option for s/s romance in a game that offers a "romance" storyline (it's 2012 aight?).

BUT... again... and without knowing the mindset of the story writers and so forth...

IMHO li's shouldn't be bi for the sake of ease but bi, gay and straight if the character is this or that. In this case what the people who created the universe, characters and story had in mind.

Now there's the argument that it's an role playing game and the player can affect the world around them. Yes to a certain degree do the player affect the world but atleast for me it would require too much suspension of disbelief that I could change people's sexuality.

#22479
ElitePinecone

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Mr. Ryder wrote...

I was thinking about the mShep/Kaidan romance (but really, this is true for me about all the full-fledged romances, in general, I just happen to favor mShep/Kaidan): we only have the voices/.tlk files, right? So do we know what kind of scenes there are, aside from what they say? I guess what I'm asking is: I'm assuming there's a sex scene, right? That seems pretty standard, at least. What about a kiss though?

Really, I'd trade a sex scene for a kiss one any day. Does anyone else feel like that? Not that I'm against the sex scene, necessarily, it's more that I think a kiss scene would moreso exemplify what, at least I personally, would want to see out of the relationship. And not one like ME1 final romance scene, more like the one at the lockers, had it not been interrupted.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to mention, I've been lurking here, decided to finally make an account and figured I'd join in the discussion. Didn't want to seem too random coming in with these questions.


Welcome.

I don't think anyone's been able to upload any mShep/Kaidan scenes yet (and it looks like Cortez was only uploaded so the internet could go crazy). 

But there's definitely a 'date' scene, though it can also be friendship-based, on the Citadel. 

#22480
Mr. Ryder

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ElitePinecone wrote...

Mr. Ryder wrote...

I was thinking about the mShep/Kaidan romance (but really, this is true for me about all the full-fledged romances, in general, I just happen to favor mShep/Kaidan): we only have the voices/.tlk files, right? So do we know what kind of scenes there are, aside from what they say? I guess what I'm asking is: I'm assuming there's a sex scene, right? That seems pretty standard, at least. What about a kiss though?

Really, I'd trade a sex scene for a kiss one any day. Does anyone else feel like that? Not that I'm against the sex scene, necessarily, it's more that I think a kiss scene would moreso exemplify what, at least I personally, would want to see out of the relationship. And not one like ME1 final romance scene, more like the one at the lockers, had it not been interrupted.

EDIT: Oh, and I forgot to mention, I've been lurking here, decided to finally make an account and figured I'd join in the discussion. Didn't want to seem too random coming in with these questions.


Welcome.

I don't think anyone's been able to upload any mShep/Kaidan scenes yet (and it looks like Cortez was only uploaded so the internet could go crazy). 

But there's definitely a 'date' scene, though it can also be friendship-based, on the Citadel. 


Thanks.

Yeah, I thought so. I wasn't sure if there was another way to tell aside from playing the game and seeing the scenes.

Hmm, upon reading over what I said (and thinking about what I'm going to ask) I certainly don't mean to sound disappointed in any way, 'cause I'm definitely not. I'm absolutely ecstatic that I get mShep/Kaidan this game, and I feel like, even if I don't like the rest of the game, I'll enjoy it because of the romance (though I'm feeling rather optimistic about how much I'll enjoy the rest of thee game as well, contrary to what I've seen on the forums a lot . . .). Anyways, does anyone else feel like (in the past, at least, since obviously I can't speak for certain on most if any of the romances in ME3, though it seems they're structured similarly) the romances themselves just build up to a sex scene, and that's the, uh, reward? Like I said earlier, I have no problems with the scene, but I've always felt like a romance should build up to one, ultimate thing, and only one thing:

"I love you."

Maybe I'm dramatic, or romantic, or something, but I'm definitely hoping to hear that from mShep/Kaidan. I didn't go through all of the audio files for fear of spoilers (though it was hard to resist), so I don't know if its in there or not, but I just felt like asking how other people felt about it.

#22481
WildOrchid

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Well, damn. At least the friendship path with Ash is decent, right?

#22482
Quething

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In the last twelve hours I've seen more people talk about f/f Ash than in the last two years. I had no idea so many people wanted her for their femSheps.

Apparently BioWare didn't either <_<

Guess my first playthrough will just suck it up and live with the silent dialog. Goddamnit BioWare.

I suppose I'm happy for Micah, though. He's been waiting a long time for Kaidan. (He's also been waiting a long time to get off Freedom's Progress, but that's beside the point...)

#22483
SeanNorm

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All for them being included in the game. My only concern is, having saved Kaiden as maleshep, I don't want them to suddenly be in a m/m relationship just cos they are being friends.

#22484
ElitePinecone

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SeanNorm wrote...

All for them being included in the game. My only concern is, having saved Kaiden as maleshep, I don't want them to suddenly be in a m/m relationship just cos they are being friends.


You have, literally, four or five chances to establish a friendship rather than a romance. It's there in huge glowing neon letters. 

#22485
Tietj

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BrianWilly wrote...

First off, I would disagree that Bioware specifically writes their characters to be as open to player's head canons as possible, and I've no idea why this is such a prevalent attitide.  What we do in our own heads is our own business, but they are no more "specific" about character fluidity (again, other than the player character) than any other piece of fiction out there, whether it's a TV show or movie or book or game.  You could "headcanon" that Harry Potter is secretly a nymphomaniacal guava juice space vampire because nothing in the book explicitly says that he isn't, sure, but that doesn't mean Rowling is specifically writing the character out for you to do that.  It doesn't make sense to me to cite this is as a specific BioWare narrative model.

For any piece of characterization that might be left open to the player's interpretation -- which, again, is unavoidable with all works of fiction -- there is a lot more that is set into narrative stone.  Our "headcanons" are limited to the scope of what BioWare presets into the storyline.  You can "headcanon" that Ashley is Christian or Jewish, but you cannot headcanon that she doesn't believe in God because she explicitly tells you that she does.  This isn't confined to the "Bioware RPG experience," it's just the way characterization works.  BioWare games aren't true sandboxes; there are hard and fast limits to how much you can "design" these characters in your head, and even harder and faster limits when it comes to designing them canonically.

Now, yes, when we're talking about sexuality it becomes a bit more complicated, because not only does sexuality not have anything to do with a preset personality, it's also completely feasible for someone to be revealed as LGBT when you previously assumed that they were straight.  And that's fine.  I have always supported the notion of Ash or Kaidan or anyone else revealing that they're attracted to the opposite sex even if they've never mentioned it before.

But as responses in this thread can attest, people are really interested in the ways that Kaidan's male romance differs from his female romance; we don't want either path to feel like something that they just threw in and switched some pronouns around as a design compromise.  People who are rooting for the "everyone is available for everyone!" model don't seem to understand that when they use terms like "convenient" and "head canons," that just brings up images of the hollow Skyrim/Fable method and makes the idea seem less attractive, not more so.  Not saying that we need entirely divergent romance storylines, but if a character is going to be attracted to both genders, then more care should be taken to make sure it's engaging and relatable, not less.

And the idea that any romanceable character should be "swappable" between gay, straight, or bi depending on the whims of the player...it's just far too much for me.  On top of being vaguely offensive (sexuality is not something you can choose to shut off or turn on if you don't like the one you have...again, maybe that's okay for shallow ciphers in other games but not for more realized characters that are meant to resemble real nuanced people, however dramatically), nothing in the mechanics of any of the Mass Effect games, or of any other BioWare game, suggests that this is the way their narrative operates.  In fact, the opposite is true; everything indicates that the world these games take place in, along with the characters within, are predetermined across all playthroughs...with the one differentiating factor being the player character and how his/her choices cause ripple affects across the landscape.  In fact, several storylines are shown to take place whether Shepard/The Warden/Hawke is aware of them or not.

We do not "choose" the predetermined traits or personalities of any of the other characters in the game in any way that affects their preexisting storyline, so why should sexuality be exempt?

This is completely correct!  Reading through the posts from last night I was getting ready to post something like this, but it probably wouldn't have been as well-stated.

#22486
RomanDark

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Anyone notice that the Steve scenes were taken down from Youtube and CVG? Damage control or what?

#22487
BobbyTheI

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LukaCrosszeria wrote...

BobbyTheI wrote...

(snip) 


That's it, I'm going pm a mod about everyone who spoils the end of the game in a s/s discussion thread, starting with you. Don't you have a shred of consideration?

edit: This thread has a spoiler warning, I know that, but there is a big difference between getting spoilers as to who the s/s romances are instead of having their romances + the game ending just put right there in a post by people who can't even be bothered to hide the information. Maybe put, oh, I don't know, SPOILER on the post if you can't figure out how to hide your text.


Hmm, silly me.  I guess when I looked at the topic title that said "*may contain spoilers*" and when I heard all the people asking to know, I assumed they'd want to know spoilers.  I'm an idiot like that sometimes, I guess.

Whatever.  I'll bugger off then, sorry for trying to do a favor.  

#22488
SolidBeast

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_Dana_ wrote...

katerinafm wrote...

Does anybody know the differences when mShep and femShep start a new romance with Kaidan? Dialogue wise?


Whole scene !Spoilers!: dana-duchovny.livejournal.com/279451.html


Good to hear that conversation is unique to manShep, after all...
But... That doesn't flow quite right.
I mean,

"It feels right, doesn't it?"
"You, Kaidan".

:?

#22489
Frozen83

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RomanDark wrote...

Anyone notice that the Steve scenes were taken down from Youtube and CVG? Damage control or what?

Too many dislikes so it has been removed. M.

#22490
ElitePinecone

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SolidBeast wrote...

_Dana_ wrote...

katerinafm wrote...

Does anybody know the differences when mShep and femShep start a new romance with Kaidan? Dialogue wise?


Whole scene !Spoilers!: dana-duchovny.livejournal.com/279451.html


Good to hear that conversation is unique to manShep, after all...
But... That doesn't flow quite right.
I mean,

"It feels right, doesn't it?"
"You, Kaidan".

:?


They cut and pasted the .tlk files together, so that's likely not right. 

(That same tumblr was behind the incorrect/jumbled romance scripts that got people, myself included, confused about Vega and Kaidan months ago.)

#22491
Jazinto

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Arik7 wrote...

That video was posted in Russia, not exactly a paradise for human rights, and especially not for gay rights.


That makes it better, because Russia is not a real place and the hate is not really hate then? :? Anyway, have you actually visited the site, who posted this video or did you just hear someone here talk about one cryllic video comment? CVG, ComputerAndVideoGames.com, is based in London.


Frozen83 wrote...

RomanDark wrote...

Anyone notice that the Steve scenes were taken down from Youtube and CVG? Damage control or what?

Too many dislikes so it has been removed. M.


All videos about Shepard and Cortez together only had, last I saw, about 14k views, BW may have not been aware of it until Kotaku broke the story. A few hours later the videos were set private.

#22492
Russalka

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I still think they got removed because they talked about it and showed it too early.

Modifié par Russalka, 03 mars 2012 - 01:26 .


#22493
SolidBeast

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ElitePinecone wrote...

SolidBeast wrote...

_Dana_ wrote...

katerinafm wrote...

Does anybody know the differences when mShep and femShep start a new romance with Kaidan? Dialogue wise?


Whole scene !Spoilers!: dana-duchovny.livejournal.com/279451.html


Good to hear that conversation is unique to manShep, after all...
But... That doesn't flow quite right.
I mean,

"It feels right, doesn't it?"
"You, Kaidan".

:?


They cut and pasted the .tlk files together, so that's likely not right. 

(That same tumblr was behind the incorrect/jumbled romance scripts that got people, myself included, confused about Vega and Kaidan months ago.)




I know. And that's _Dana_'s blog, isn't it? I thought maybe this time she had the complete romance scene to go by (a lot can happen overnight, and AFAIK, the game is leaking left and right).
Anyway, I patched the conversation together as an .mp3 for my listening pleasure :P and it flows better with different lines.

#22494
Ricvenart

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SolidBeast wrote...

Anyway, I patched the conversation together as an .mp3 for my listening pleasure :P


@Solid: Oh Solid...*pats head*

#22495
Cathey

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I hope the negative response to M!Shep and Cortez video doesn't put BW off doing exclusive s/s LI's in future games. Was kind of hoping the Dragon Age team would do that next.

#22496
SolidBeast

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Ricvenart wrote...

SolidBeast wrote...

Anyway, I patched the conversation together as an .mp3 for my listening pleasure :P


@Solid: Oh Solid...*pats head*


Admit it, you did it too.

#22497
Ricvenart

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@Solid: I Admit nothing!

*Throws a smokebomb and flees*

#22498
ElitePinecone

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Cathey wrote...

I hope the negative response to M!Shep and Cortez video doesn't put BW off doing exclusive s/s LI's in future games. Was kind of hoping the Dragon Age team would do that next.


They have their own data that's much more reliable than internet troglodytes.

For instance, a surprising number of people (according to Gaider) play through the m/m romances in DA games. As long as there's that demand for it, they'll keep doing it. 

They'll have telemetry set up for ME3 as well, and while we'll never get access to the exact statistics, it'll tell them (right down to individual numbers) exactly how many people used the s/s content. 

#22499
LoveAsThouWilt

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Abispa wrote...

The trick for a good Bioware game is to get US help in the development of EVERY characters' story, not jus the PC. The fact that so many s/s critics seem to argue sexuality as the ONLY character trait that MUST be set in stone (and based on some arficial quota system based on demographics) seems so silly to me.

Far from being easy, or lazy, Bioware's character writing in a style that encourages the development of head canons seems incredible difficult and worthy of respect, even when it fails.


I've never heard it put like that in the aspect where, beyond shaping the PC, players can shape those around them. though I do have a question: how would it work. Or at least how would YOU do it. 

All that comes to mind is a means of having a larger of aray of conversations with them, with a larger range of replies, which based on them will shape the NPC to some extent or another (within reason of their backstories, which will  have stablished  a set personality for them - can't make them Elder Scrolls robots - )

#22500
KillTheLastRomantic

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Frozen83 wrote...

RomanDark wrote...

Anyone notice that the Steve scenes were taken down from Youtube and CVG? Damage control or what?

Too many dislikes so it has been removed. M.


That is PATHETIC. Sometimes people just repulse me beyond words. MUST THINK HAPPY THOUGHTS.