25715 réponses à ce sujet

[bleetman]

I like that what began as a commentary on how Kaidan and Ashley are being treated in ME3 would divide the combined VS fanbase has somewhat ended up an argument as to whether one got more attention than the other in past Mass Effect games/plot/marketing/whatever.

Oh yeah. Clearly no division here

Modifié par bleetman, 04 mars 2012 - 12:04 .

[ADLegend21]

bleetman wrote...

I like that what began as a commentary on how Kaidan and Ashley are being treated in ME3 would divide the combined VS fanbase has somewhat ended up an argument as to whether one got more attention than the other in past Mass Effect games/plot/marketing/whatever.

Oh yeah. Clearly no division here

tis what I was talking about...

[SolidBeast]

Collider wrote...

But we've never influenced a predetermined trait or piece of canon.

But I think that actually clicking a button that turns a character straight in one playthrough and gay in another playthrough would count as influencing a predetermined trait or piece of canon.

Strangely enough...this is kind of what they did with Anders.
If you play as male, Karl was Ander's lover. If you play as female, Karl was Ander's friend.

Gaider mentioned Anders was bisexual no matter what.

[shepskisaac]

Eternal Dust wrote...
I wouldn't say that Ash was more taken care of.

You can talk to her after Eden Prime no matter which gender you play, you can't talk to Kaidan as mShep. This is not a matter of opinion, this is a fact.

ADLegend21 wrote...
That's why you get to talk to Ashley
on both games because you're checking on her after she's been through
traumatic events.

You're just justifying why she had more dialogues. Doesn't change the fact that she did have more dialogues.

Modifié par IsaacShep, 04 mars 2012 - 12:12 .

[KillTheLastRomantic]

bleetman wrote...

Eternal Dust wrote...

Yes, I did say DA2 was the only game to break the trend. And just to be devil's advocate, you could completely miss Leliana and not even recruit her or kill her off later. Morrigan won't bugger off though.

You can actually just tell Morrigan to leave as soon as you reach Lothering :3

Really? Does she show up later before the final battle or is she completely gone from the game after that?

[Collider]

Gaider mentioned Anders was bisexual no matter what.

I would rather have Karl being mentioned as lover in all playthroughs.
All M/M love interests besides Steve have history with women that they mention, yet they didn't mention Ander's history with men if you're playing fem Hawke.

[Eternal Dust]

IsaacShep wrote...

Eternal Dust wrote...

I wouldn't say that Ash was more taken care of.

You can talk to her after Eden Prime no matter which gender you play, you can't talk to Kaidan as mShep. This is not a matter of opinion, this is a fact.

Which is kind of surprising that it is Kaidan that is now bi even though he had less interaction with ManShep.

[Abispa]

BrianWilly wrote...

I definitely agree with you that, sure, we can believe what we want about a squadmate's sexuality if it's never mentioned, and maybe it'll even turn out to be true some time down the line as it apparently has for Kaidan.  But I think that actually clicking a button that turns a character straight in one playthrough and gay in another playthrough would count as influencing a predetermined trait or piece of canon.

If the trait is never established, it is NOT canon. If my male hero romances Anders in one game, it does NOT violate canon in a second game where my female hero romances him UNLESS Anders says, "I'm gay and/or I don't find women sexual/romantically attractive." The annoying thing about this argument I've had MANY times is that certain players assume that quality = a limited number of options. This is usually accompanied by an argument that it is more realistic that those limited options go to heterosexual males due to demographics.

I am NOT saying that YOU are one of those s/s critics.

I am a heterosexual male who loses NOTHING when others get choices to create their own Bioware universe, except some imaginary status of creator of the sacred head canon. And there is NOTHING that prevents *gasp* a straight male from playing a gay male character once in a while. This thread has straight males who role play lesbians and straight females who role play gay males. These are options that can be used by ANYONE. Granted, I've only done one s/s romance so far (Anders in DA2) and did prefer it to o/s Anders, but I'm not a big Anders fan overall.

EDIT: For clarity and grammar. Maybe.

Modifié par Abispa, 04 mars 2012 - 12:20 .

[AmuHav]

bleetman wrote...

I like that what began as a commentary on how Kaidan and Ashley are being treated in ME3 would divide the combined VS fanbase has somewhat ended up an argument as to whether one got more attention than the other in past Mass Effect games/plot/marketing/whatever.

Oh yeah. Clearly no division here

There wasn't any division * Glares at arguees*

We're all getting along here, aren't we? 

[ADLegend21]

IsaacShep wrote...

Eternal Dust wrote...
I wouldn't say that Ash was more taken care of.

You can talk to her after Eden Prime no matter which gender you play, you can't talk to Kaidan as mShep. This is not a matter of opinion, this is a fact.

ADLegend21 wrote...
That's why you get to talk to Ashley
on both games because you're checking on her after she's been through
traumatic events.

You're just justifying why she had more dialogues. Doesn't change the fact that she did have more dialogues.

already said you get to talk to Ashley both times because you're checking on her after something traumatic happened. that's not favoritism that's in game decency.

[lady_v23]

Collider wrote...

swiftnissity wrote...

Arguably I'd say Aveline may actually be the main female lead in DA2 rather then the LI's. Even though you can't romance her she's with you from practically the start and can't be made to leave, thus she's a required part of the plot. Everyone else can be skipped and/or made to leave.

Doesn't she give female Hawke a kiss?

Yep. If you flirt with her.  But it means nothing...<_<

Modifié par lady_v23, 04 mars 2012 - 12:15 .

[SolidBeast]

bleetman wrote...

I like that what began as a commentary on how Kaidan and Ashley are being treated in ME3 would divide the combined VS fanbase has somewhat ended up an argument as to whether one got more attention than the other in past Mass Effect games/plot/marketing/whatever.

Oh yeah. Clearly no division here

Why do they need to be combined? Why shouldn't they be divided? And ultimately, aren't we all individuals here? Why are people pushing for such a thing as "VS fans" when VS are clearly different people, even if one lives when the other dies? Isn't it normal to prefer one over the other (not saying there are no exceptions)?
The whole point shouldn't be in NOT arguing facts, it should be in NOT childishly gloating or demeaning other people for something they 1) have no control over 2) are happy / sad about.

I feel for Ashley's fans BUT that doesn't make this unfair from a trilogy s/s romance standpoint. Which is what I believe BioWare was aiming at.

Modifié par SolidBeast, 04 mars 2012 - 12:17 .

[Abispa]

SolidBeast wrote...

Gaider mentioned Anders was bisexual no matter what.

I know why Gaider said that, but it doesn't take away the fact that the way he is presented in DA2, a female hero can assume he's straight since he doesn't go into detail about Karl. A male  hero encounters an Anders who is probably bisexual because he does mention female prostitutes and girls he's manipulated into performing various tasks for him.

[MSparkyPants]

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

Really? Does she show up later before the final battle or is she completely gone from the game after that?

iirc, she shows up later for... Old God baby purposes.

[SolidBeast]

Collider wrote...

Gaider mentioned Anders was bisexual no matter what.

I would rather have Karl being mentioned as lover in all playthroughs.
All M/M love interests besides Steve have history with women that they mention, yet they didn't mention Ander's history with men if you're playing fem Hawke.

Also @Abispa: I did not say it isn't a stupid move, I merely said he is bisexual in both universes, acknowledged or no.

[Collider]

My problem with the all bisexual approach is that this often leads to very very gender neutral dialog and thus the degendering of the player character.
I believe that is a legitimate criticism.

[TMA LIVE]

Collider wrote...

Ashley being the lead female for ME3 is...debatable. She was in the CG trailer but Liara is otherwise more marketed. Not to mention Ashley can be dead.

Liara appeared more but that doesn't make her a lead. Just like it doesn't make Garrus more of a lead then Vega.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 04 mars 2012 - 12:22 .

[Abispa]

Collider wrote...

My problem with the all bisexual approach is that this often leads to very very gender neutral dialog and thus the degendering of the player character.
I believe that is a legitimate criticism.

It does NOT lead to this, though. With the exception of BG2, the hero's gender RARELY affects romances in a way that recognizes gender. That's why "gay mods" are common and work well. Even the "straight" romances are written with minimal references to gender.

[TMA LIVE]

Like I always said, Miranda and Ash are the romance leads for Marketing. Always have been. Always will be. Why? Because they're normal, human, and modelish.

[shepskisaac]

ADLegend21 wrote...

already said you get to talk to Ashley both times because you're checking on her after something traumatic happened. that's not favoritism that's in game decency.

Right. I'm just gonna drop it.

[Eternal Dust]

Abispa wrote...

Collider wrote...

My problem with the all bisexual approach is that this often leads to very very gender neutral dialog and thus the degendering of the player character.
I believe that is a legitimate criticism.

It does NOT lead to this, though. With the exception of BG2, the hero's gender RARELY affects romances in a way that recognizes gender. That's why "gay mods" are common and work well. Even the "straight" romances are written with minimal references to gender.

Yes, it's written in such a way that headcanon is possible.

Headcanon.

[Collider]

Abispa wrote...

Collider wrote...

My problem with the all bisexual approach is that this often leads to very very gender neutral dialog and thus the degendering of the player character.
I believe that is a legitimate criticism.

It does NOT lead to this, though. With the exception of BG2, the hero's gender RARELY affects romances in a way that recognizes gender. That's why "gay mods" are common and work well. Even the "straight" romances are written with minimal references to gender.

I disagree.
If you look at the Kaidan, Jacob, Thane, and Garrus romances for example, they all have references to women and heterosexual pairings. And not just in a trivial pronoun sort of way.

[bleetman]

SolidBeast wrote...
Why do they need to be combined? Why shouldn't they be divided? And ultimately, aren't we all individuals here? Why are people pushing for such a thing as "VS fans" when VS are clearly different people, even if one lives when the other dies? Isn't it normal to prefer one over the other (not saying there are no exceptions)?
The whole point shouldn't be in NOT arguing facts, it should be in NOT childishly gloating or demeaning other people for something they 1) have no control over 2) are happy / sad about.

I feel for Ashley's fans BUT that doesn't make this unfair from a trilogy s/s romance standpoint. Which is what I believe BioWare was aiming at.

I think you're arguing with the wrong person. I'm just commenting on what's happened.

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

Really? Does she show up later before the final battle or is she completely gone from the game after that?

I have no idea. You'd have to ask someone who actually did tell her to get lost. I never have.

Modifié par bleetman, 04 mars 2012 - 12:30 .

[Texhnolyze101]

Samantha traynor is perfect....i wonder if she would be into a 3 some with femshep and liara...

Modifié par 101ezylonhxeT, 04 mars 2012 - 12:31 .

[Abispa]

Collider wrote...

I disagree.

If you look at the Kaidan, Jacob, Thane, and Garrus romances for example, they all have references to women and heterosexual pairings. And not just in a trivial pronoun sort of way.

OTHER women's gender, yes. I'm not saying that information is trivial, since a player of a male hero can decide that he isn't really into romancing guys who talk about past female lovers. That doesn't mean they cannot, or should not, be bi. I do agree with you, however, that it is hypcritical to have an established "bi" LI refer to only to past female lovers, like Anders and Leliana do.

Also, I am NOT against STRAIGHT or GAY LIs. I am just saying that unless the writers have some preferences or story based reason to make the LIs exclusive, the LIs should be hero-sexual by default. Usuing demographics and not story telling reasons to restrict choices in a RPG is silly.

Modifié par Abispa, 04 mars 2012 - 12:39 .