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[TMA LIVE]

Daashi wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I'm watching a playthrough with Kaidan... something tells me they made him bi because his animation in cutscenes seem a bit... feminine.

I think the feminine behaviour comes with the fact he shares the soul of Ashley. Seriously they have been giving them the same animation.

That, or Kaidan is the first woman trapped in a man's body in the Mass Effect series. And by the end of the trilogy, he'll take an operation, and change his name to Ash.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 04 mars 2012 - 03:12 .

[SolidBeast]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Thestral wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I'm watching a playthrough with Kaidan... something tells me they made him bi because his animation in cutscenes seem a bit... feminine.

That's silly. Feminine behaviour does not make a man bisexual or gay or mean that he is bisexual or gay. Gender expression [such as feminine behaviour] means exactly squat about sexual orientation. BioWare know that.

There's a stereotype that gay men act more like woman. I'm just saying it seems like that's the route that was created with Kaidan.

Okay, now you're just trolling.

[ElitePinecone]

Daashi wrote...

I just love it how people are assuming just because you are a bi/gay guy you should act more feminine. I would at least like to think that Kaidan is now a bit more feminine in his movements is because he is given the same animations as Ashley (to be lazy) and not because someone thought; "Hey now that Kaidan's bi shouldn't he act a bit more girly."

I highly, highly, highly, highly doubt the latter is the case.

That's conspiratorial and pessimistic, even for this thread. 

[TMA LIVE]

SolidBeast wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Thestral wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I'm watching a playthrough with Kaidan... something tells me they made him bi because his animation in cutscenes seem a bit... feminine.

That's silly. Feminine behaviour does not make a man bisexual or gay or mean that he is bisexual or gay. Gender expression [such as feminine behaviour] means exactly squat about sexual orientation. BioWare know that.

There's a stereotype that gay men act more like woman. I'm just saying it seems like that's the route that was created with Kaidan.

Okay, now you're just trolling.

Look, I don't think it's intentional. I do think they're reusing Ash's animation out of laziness. But it is making Kaidan more feminine, and thus falling into the stereotype.

[SolidBeast]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Daashi wrote...

I just love it how people are assuming just because you are a bi/gay guy you should act more feminine. I would at least like to think that Kaidan is now a bit more feminine in his movements is because he is given the same animations as Ashley (to be lazy) and not because someone thought; "Hey now that Kaidan's bi shouldn't he act a bit more girly."

I highly, highly, highly, highly doubt the latter is the case.

That's conspiratorial and pessimistic, even for this thread. 

I think you misunderstood that. No one here thinks BioWare really did that. Not even TMA.
@TMA - then don't word it differently on purpose.

Modifié par SolidBeast, 04 mars 2012 - 03:16 .

[Collider]

It's nothing new. They shared animations starting with ME1's endgame and continued throughout the rest of the trilogy.

Kaidan was also in Ashley's barbie armor during ME2's intro.

[Frozen83]

Collider wrote...

I would think the fact that it looks like Kaidan is staring at male Shepard's backside and smiling was enough indication.
Also, someone at Bioware has a serious love of ass.

He is European. Everybody's is watching everybody elses asses here ! M.

[SolidBeast]

Frozen83 wrote...

Collider wrote...

I would think the fact that it looks like Kaidan is staring at male Shepard's backside and smiling was enough indication.
Also, someone at Bioware has a serious love of ass.

He is European. Everybody's is watching everybody elses asses here ! M.

That's true, at least for the Balkan area. And grabbing. But don't be fooled, everybody's straight!

[MACharlie1]

Frozen83 wrote...

Collider wrote...

I would think the fact that it looks like Kaidan is staring at male Shepard's backside and smiling was enough indication.
Also, someone at Bioware has a serious love of ass.

He is European. Everybody's is watching everybody elses asses here ! M.

I was in Italy this past June. And just let me say, if Florence is any indication, you Europeans have every reason to be looking at each other's asses. 

Nice asses and nice hair 

[TMA LIVE]

SolidBeast wrote...
@TMA - then don't word it differently on purpose.

What do you mean?

Animation wise, I think it's laziness, and not intentional. But when it cames to picking which was going to be bi, Ash or Kaidan, something tells me them being lazy and creating a stereotype played a part in that choice. Like the pink armor, as C pointed out.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 04 mars 2012 - 03:21 .

[ElitePinecone]

Collider wrote...

I'm thinking a Jade Empire sequel would be a decent setting for a serious transgendered character.

Now that I think about it, that could work really well. 

It could also be written in a way that adheres to whatever-the-heck-the-culture-is-in-Jade-Empire.

As an example, male-male relationships in classical Chinese culture had a huge range of allusions and metaphors, "the passion of the cut sleeve" (an emperor cut the sleeve of his robe rather than wake his lover up), "the passion of the bitten peach", "the southern custom". It's all very literary, and often it's hard to tell male-male from male-female relationships in Chinese classical texts because of all the metaphors, and the lack of gendered pronouns. 

/Chinese geek hat off.

But yeah, I think it would be a great idea, if Bioware ever returned to the setting. 

[Daashi]

ElitePinecone wrote...

That's conspiratorial and pessimistic, even for this thread. 

Yeah, what's our schedule at anyway?

And for that cross-dressing character in JE, I'm pretty sure it was a coutesan called Happy Endings.

Modifié par Daashi, 04 mars 2012 - 03:21 .

[ElitePinecone]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Look, I don't think it's intentional. I do think they're reusing Ash's animation out of laziness. But it is making Kaidan more feminine, and thus falling into the stereotype.

Only if you choose to take it as feminine, and a stereotype. 

This is why gender roles are bad, mkay?

[sheppard7]

ElitePinecone wrote...

sheppard7 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I'm watching a playthrough with Kaidan... something tells me they made him bi because his animation in cutscenes seem a bit... feminine.

I hope not. Bioware already messed up using an established character for same sex which made it seem like a different character all together. If they want to do same sex, then fine but introduce a new character for it so it doesn't change an existing one. Hey, they can do it with Vega since he's a new character without a problem.

Kaidan is an m/m option in ME3.

I think we'll have to disagree that it's "messing up" anything. 

Oh, obligatory:

(snipped image )

Then that sucks IMO. But then again, he's dead in all but one playthrough for me so unless Shep can mess with the dead (Now that's sick lol), then no chance I will even see Kaidan come out the closet. And even that one might get Gibbed so Ash will be available. lol

But the "messing up" comment was more towards the other instance I still don't like how BW did it. When I really think on it, even in the "Bro times" with male Shep, Kaidan never really made any comments to Shep one way or the other unlike that other incident of Bioware using an established character. So I'm tainted, I admit. And before it turns into the same misunderstanding, it's not the SS that bothered me (as I even said go for it with Vega before lol). I am just a "character" guy and so when it's an established one, I want consistency in characters. But again, I can admit that I'm tainted from before but as I think about it, it's not as far-fetched for Kaidan as it is for that other incident.

I even thought in ME2 that Garrus might be gay. The way he moved when he talked to Shep after arriving on the SR-2. Always paying more attention to calibrations than my FemShep. He was just so into guys I started thinking as my male Shep got more reactions from him.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

TMA LIVE wrote...

SolidBeast wrote...
@TMA - then don't word it differently on purpose.

What do you mean?

Animation wise, I think it's laziness, and not intentional. But when it cames to picking which was going to be bi, Ash or Kaidan, something tells me them being lazy and creating a stereotype played a part in that choice. Like the pink armor, as C pointed out.

I'm fairly certain Kaidan was made bi because there were so far no m/m squadmates, whereas f/f already have Liara as an option. Not because he has 'feminine' animations.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

sheppard7 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I'm watching a playthrough with Kaidan... something tells me they made him bi because his animation in cutscenes seem a bit... feminine.

I hope not. Bioware already messed up using an established character for same sex which made it seem like a different character all together. If they want to do same sex, then fine but introduce a new character for it so it doesn't change an existing one. Hey, they can do it with Vega since he's a new character without a problem.

If you're referring to Anders, I'd say his character was 'messed up' because they changed his look, his voice actor and the majority of his personality and had him constantly talk about the same thing for the entire game. Making him available to both genders can hardly be blamed for that mess.

[Collider]

It isn't treated like Kaidan is coming out of the closet.
It's treated like he has feelings for a friend.

One of the things I disliked about Klace's fake dialog is that it still treated male homosexuality as weird or whatever (Kaidan seemed to imply that men marrying each other was a problenm???).

In Mass Effect it doesn't seem to be a big deal.

[ElitePinecone]

sheppard7 wrote...
snip

You can easily shut Kaidan's advances down (and I'm not even sure if he makes any, without encouragement from Shepard).

And there's a strong friendship path to all of the conversations, up to and including the 'date' that turns into a bro-thing. 

Finally, there are no closets involved. 

[Daashi]

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

sheppard7 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I'm watching a playthrough with Kaidan... something tells me they made him bi because his animation in cutscenes seem a bit... feminine.

I hope not. Bioware already messed up using an established character for same sex which made it seem like a different character all together. If they want to do same sex, then fine but introduce a new character for it so it doesn't change an existing one. Hey, they can do it with Vega since he's a new character without a problem.

If you're referring to Anders, I'd say his character was 'messed up' because they changed his look, his voice actor and the majority of his personality and had him constantly talk about the same thing for the entire game. Making him available to both genders can hardly be blamed for that mess.

Firstly Anders was always bi (at least that is how he came across in my Awakening playthroughs). Because even though he is very overt in his flirtation of the female warden (and woman in general) and doesn't flirt with the male warden, he flirted with both Nathaniel and Oghren in the party banter.

[bleetman]

I slept in a closet once. It was surprisingly comfortable.

...Uh, anyway. You know, I'm actually kind of surprised Vega hasn't turned out to be s/s. Not that I necessarily agree with this "changing an existing character zomg" thing, but I'd figured avoiding that was one of the reasons they added him in the first place.

[edit] Oh, are people back to pointing at Anders as some example of sexuality changes gone wrong? And ignoring the whole arc of tragedy and psychological devestation wrought by circumstances entirely removed of his sexual orientation, but entirely relevant to why his DA2 persona is so drastically different to his Awakening one? Making the whole point utterly contrived and without any real foundation? Ok, cool. I suppose it's been at least a week since I last read through some of that garbage.

Modifié par bleetman, 04 mars 2012 - 03:35 .

[Collider]

bleetman wrote...

I slept in a closet once. It was surprisingly comfortable.

...Uh, anyway. You know, I'm actually kind of surprised Vega hasn't turned out to be s/s. Not that I necessarily agree with this "changing an existing character zomg" thing, but I'd figured avoiding that was one of the reasons they added him in the first place.

So we've determined that male Shepard can't flirt with him? Or that Vega doesn't flirt back with male Shepard?

[Daashi]

bleetman wrote...

I slept in a closet once. It was surprisingly comfortable.

When I was about 7-8 years old, my mum rented this place that had an inbuilt wardrobe in my room, I often slept in it.

[bleetman]

Collider wrote...

So we've determined that male Shepard can't flirt with him? Or that Vega doesn't flirt back with male Shepard?

Hmm? I have no idea. Have we? I thought people'd discovered he wasn't a full fledged romance. I just meant, I sort of quietly expected him to be the m/m option, along with Cortez, rather than Kaidan.

[Cat Fancy]

Collider wrote...

One of the things I disliked about Klace's fake dialog is that it still treated male homosexuality as weird or whatever (Kaidan seemed to imply that men marrying each other was a problenm???).

In Mass Effect it doesn't seem to be a big deal.

I actually kind of dislike that. The writers don't live in an egalitarian utopia; they can't accurately portray one. This is a universe with an entire race that like half-exists to be a juvenile straight male sex fantasy. Dragon Age kind of tries to do the same thing, and it annoys me as well- the lore implies that homosexuality is at least kind of stigmatized ("kind of strange" or something) but you wouldn't know that from DAII. DAO is a bit different, with Zevran making sure you're cool with him boning dudes (but not with him being a sociopath! I do like him and think that's in character, though). I'd rather have characters be actually homophobic, just like they're sometimes actually sexist, than not touch the subject. I'd also like the option to have PCs flirt with someone and get rejected. I know that's not what most people want, of course.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

Daashi wrote...

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

sheppard7 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I'm watching a playthrough with Kaidan... something tells me they made him bi because his animation in cutscenes seem a bit... feminine.

I hope not. Bioware already messed up using an established character for same sex which made it seem like a different character all together. If they want to do same sex, then fine but introduce a new character for it so it doesn't change an existing one. Hey, they can do it with Vega since he's a new character without a problem.

If you're referring to Anders, I'd say his character was 'messed up' because they changed his look, his voice actor and the majority of his personality and had him constantly talk about the same thing for the entire game. Making him available to both genders can hardly be blamed for that mess.

Firstly Anders was always bi (at least that is how he came across in my Awakening playthroughs). Because even though he is very overt in his flirtation of the female warden (and woman in general) and doesn't flirt with the male warden, he flirted with both Nathaniel and Oghren in the party banter.

Well I was arguing in DEFENSE of him being available to both male and female Hawke, so...

I didn't know he flirts with Oghren and Nathaniel, though? Unless you're referring to him asking whether girls are into Nathaniels whole stoic vibe?