25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

My only problem with Anders is how his attraction or history to men was downplayed.

One person brought up the point that it makes sense that Anders brings up having a past male lover to male Hawke (as a "I'm open to men like you" message) but not to female Hawke (because she's a woman).

There is some truth to that, but it's irksome when literally every M/M love interest aside from Steve (who is gay) has something of this sort. Any homosexual attraction or history outside of the actual romance is either absent or hidden (one way or another), whereas heterosexual attractions are displayed very openly and proudly.

[Daashi]

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

Daashi wrote...

Firstly Anders was always bi (at least that is how he came across in my Awakening playthroughs). Because even though he is very overt in his flirtation of the female warden (and woman in general) and doesn't flirt with the male warden, he flirted with both Nathaniel and Oghren in the party banter.

Well I was arguing in DEFENSE of him being available to both male and female Hawke, so...

I didn't know he flirts with Oghren and Nathaniel, though? Unless you're referring to him asking whether girls are into Nathaniels whole stoic vibe?

Actually I was talking about how him and Nate start talking about what's underneath his robes. Hilariously and left nice images in my mind.

Edit sorry it was Oghren who talks about what he wears underneath his robes. Nate talked about what he wore beside robes.

Modifié par Daashi, 04 mars 2012 - 03:44 .

[Abispa]

TMA LIVE wrote...

SolidBeast wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I do find it wrong that there is no new romance for the Straight female. I mean, if you're playing ME3 for the first time, then your only option is Kaidan.

Kaidan is all one really needs.

No offense, but I kill Kaidan, and I don't think I'm alone when it comes to that.

So like I said, I think the straight female should have gotten another option.

I agree that the APPARENT list of LIs for o/s female Shepard seems limited. However, someone posted a tweet here PAGES ago or on the Vega thread about the number of male LIs for straight Shepard, and a writer DID say that she had options that aren't readily apparent. I have NO idea who he's talking about since Vega isn't a "real" option.

[sheppard7]

Daashi wrote...

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

sheppard7 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I'm watching a playthrough with Kaidan... something tells me they made him bi because his animation in cutscenes seem a bit... feminine.

I hope not. Bioware already messed up using an established character for same sex which made it seem like a different character all together. If they want to do same sex, then fine but introduce a new character for it so it doesn't change an existing one. Hey, they can do it with Vega since he's a new character without a problem.

If you're referring to Anders, I'd say his character was 'messed up' because they changed his look, his voice actor and the majority of his personality and had him constantly talk about the same thing for the entire game. Making him available to both genders can hardly be blamed for that mess.

Firstly Anders was always bi (at least that is how he came across in my Awakening playthroughs). Because even though he is very overt in his flirtation of the female warden (and woman in general) and doesn't flirt with the male warden, he flirted with both Nathaniel and Oghren in the party banter.

I just played Awakening and I don't remember any flirting with Nathaniel. And him and Oghren actually made fun of each other and did not flirt.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

Abispa wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

SolidBeast wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I do find it wrong that there is no new romance for the Straight female. I mean, if you're playing ME3 for the first time, then your only option is Kaidan.

Kaidan is all one really needs.

No offense, but I kill Kaidan, and I don't think I'm alone when it comes to that.

So like I said, I think the straight female should have gotten another option.

I agree that the APPARENT list of LIs for o/s female Shepard seems limited. However, someone posted a tweet here PAGES ago or on the Vega thread about the number of male LIs for straight Shepard, and a writer DID say that she had options that aren't readily apparent. I have NO idea who he's talking about since Vega isn't a "real" option.

Interesting. Joker, maybe?

[sheppard7]

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

sheppard7 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I'm watching a playthrough with Kaidan... something tells me they made him bi because his animation in cutscenes seem a bit... feminine.

I hope not. Bioware already messed up using an established character for same sex which made it seem like a different character all together. If they want to do same sex, then fine but introduce a new character for it so it doesn't change an existing one. Hey, they can do it with Vega since he's a new character without a problem.

If you're referring to Anders, I'd say his character was 'messed up' because they changed his look, his voice actor and the majority of his personality and had him constantly talk about the same thing for the entire game. Making him available to both genders can hardly be blamed for that mess.

I'm not saying that was the only thing they messed up with Anders but that was the one thing this thread topic is about they messed up with him. HTH on what I was saying.

[Collider]

Vega is an option to flirt with as female Shepard.
That's apparently enough for Bioware.

[Weltea]

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

Abispa wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

SolidBeast wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I do find it wrong that there is no new romance for the Straight female. I mean, if you're playing ME3 for the first time, then your only option is Kaidan.

Kaidan is all one really needs.

No offense, but I kill Kaidan, and I don't think I'm alone when it comes to that.

So like I said, I think the straight female should have gotten another option.

I agree that the APPARENT list of LIs for o/s female Shepard seems limited. However, someone posted a tweet here PAGES ago or on the Vega thread about the number of male LIs for straight Shepard, and a writer DID say that she had options that aren't readily apparent. I have NO idea who he's talking about since Vega isn't a "real" option.

Interesting. Joker, maybe?

I REALLY don't think Joker is going to happen,what with EDI and the line of never having thought about Shepard that way in the old script,and I think I saw some banter around awhile back which mostly consisted of asking various NPCs about how he could bang EDI...

[SolidBeast]

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

Interesting. Joker, maybe?

I've been thinking this for a while now, but IIRC people with the copy already said there are no romance files for Joker at all.

[jlb524]

Collider wrote...

Meh. I hate gender roles.

But you push for bi romances to be more 'gendered'.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

Weltea wrote...

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

Abispa wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

SolidBeast wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

I do find it wrong that there is no new romance for the Straight female. I mean, if you're playing ME3 for the first time, then your only option is Kaidan.

Kaidan is all one really needs.

No offense, but I kill Kaidan, and I don't think I'm alone when it comes to that.

So like I said, I think the straight female should have gotten another option.

I agree that the APPARENT list of LIs for o/s female Shepard seems limited. However, someone posted a tweet here PAGES ago or on the Vega thread about the number of male LIs for straight Shepard, and a writer DID say that she had options that aren't readily apparent. I have NO idea who he's talking about since Vega isn't a "real" option.

Interesting. Joker, maybe?

I REALLY don't think Joker is going to happen,what with EDI and the line of never having thought about Shepard that way in the old script,and I think I saw some banter around awhile back which mostly consisted of asking various NPCs about how he could bang EDI...

It just seems odd that with them exploring non-squaddie romances combined with the vocal desire for a Jokermance since the first game paired with Bioware's apparent willingness to consider such requests (Tali, Garrus m/m) that he wouldn't be an option. Particularly with that tweet in mind. He's the only person I can think of.

[Puzzlewell]

catabuca wrote...

Playing through ME2, for the heck of it. Managed to capture a beautiful moment, as Ash is told she is not going to be able to express her intimate feelings for femShep in ME3:

http://db.tt/sqK3cvvf

(haven't put it in image code, because it's a bit big, don't want to break the forum for anyone)

I almost lost my morning coffee thanks to this! I know Ash, derpface explains a part of my sentiments exactly.

[Sherbet Lemon]

 Did they do the Ken stuff this time?  I thought I heard a rumor that earlier in the development of ME2 they were going to put a female Shepard with Ken (a la Kelly Chambers), but ended up not doing that?  I don't know, maybe I'm making things up and have just lost my mind.  

[jlb524]

TMA LIVE wrote...

Look, I don't think it's intentional. I do think they're reusing Ash's animation out of laziness. But it is making Kaidan more feminine, and thus falling into the stereotype.

One good thing BW does is avoid stereotypes.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't their intention.

Also, are your sure that your bias on this isn't leading you to interpret his animations as 'more feminine' when they might not be all that different?

[Daashi]

Village Idiot wrote...

 Did they do the Ken stuff this time?  I thought I heard a rumor that earlier in the development of ME2 they were going to put a female Shepard with Ken (a la Kelly Chambers), but ended up not doing that?  I don't know, maybe I'm making things up and have just lost my mind.  

I heard that, but I got the impression it was created as a little "fan" joke. You know the image of Ken in a stripper outfit shaking his a*** for Shepard.

[Weltea]

Village Idiot wrote...

 Did they do the Ken stuff this time?  I thought I heard a rumor that earlier in the development of ME2 they were going to put a female Shepard with Ken (a la Kelly Chambers), but ended up not doing that?  I don't know, maybe I'm making things up and have just lost my mind.  

I remember that rumor but there's some Ken/Gabby flirting dialogue (at least in the old script) so I don't think so....but maybe a new NPC fills that role? And we just haven't heard about him yet?
Does that sound possible or am I just grasping at straws?

[ElitePinecone]

umwhatyousay wrote...

Collider wrote...

One of the things I disliked about Klace's fake dialog is that it still treated male homosexuality as weird or whatever (Kaidan seemed to imply that men marrying each other was a problenm???).

In Mass Effect it doesn't seem to be a big deal.

I actually kind of dislike that. The writers don't live in an egalitarian utopia; they can't accurately portray one. This is a universe with an entire race that like half-exists to be a juvenile straight male sex fantasy. Dragon Age kind of tries to do the same thing, and it annoys me as well- the lore implies that homosexuality is at least kind of stigmatized ("kind of strange" or something) but you wouldn't know that from DAII. DAO is a bit different, with Zevran making sure you're cool with him boning dudes (but not with him being a sociopath! I do like him and think that's in character, though). I'd rather have characters be actually homophobic, just like they're sometimes actually sexist, than not touch the subject. I'd also like the option to have PCs flirt with someone and get rejected. I know that's not what most people want, of course.

I'm going to tiptoe around realworld sociopolitics here, because it's not the topic of the thread, but I disagree that 2186 shouldn't be seen as some sort of utopia for conemporary social/civil rights causes.

'Cause, I mean, it is. Harkin aside (and he's an abberation according to every single character you meet) nobody treats femShep differently because of her gender, there's literally no racism in the entire game, and battle-hardened marines like Vega don't bat an eyelid at married Steve. We have women serving openly on the frontlines of the Alliance, Earth's cultures and ethnicities are a farrago and the Alliance has regulations protecting religious liberty and (presumably) recognising same-sex marriages. 

174 years is a heck of a long time by the pace of change of social mores, especially when (as we've been told by the writers) confirmation of the existence of aliens simultaneously causes about a zillion religious schisms and gives humans an external focus that's a thousand times more separate than gender, ethnicity, politics or sexual orientation. 

Point being: I've read blogs by Patrick Weekes that suggest Bioware try to make their games relative social utopias (at least where sexuality/gender/race is concerned) partly because they have fans who enjoy playing in a fictional world where their identity is irrelevant. 

If they want to make (apparently) unrealistic liberal paradises as fictional fantasy/sci-fi worlds, I say go for it. The escapism clearly has a huge audience, and they're providing a setting that virtually no other games can match. 

[TMA LIVE]

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Look, I don't think it's intentional. I do think they're reusing Ash's animation out of laziness. But it is making Kaidan more feminine, and thus falling into the stereotype.

One good thing BW does is avoid stereotypes.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't their intention.

Also, are your sure that your bias on this isn't leading you to interpret his animations as 'more feminine' when they might not be all that different?

It could be just the intro levels, and then things are different later on. But from what I've seen so far, animation wise, he does exactly what Ash does.

Think of it like the open legs thing Femshep does.

Modifié par TMA LIVE, 04 mars 2012 - 04:07 .

[Collider]

jlb524 wrote...

Collider wrote...

Meh. I hate gender roles.

But you push for bi romances to be more 'gendered'.

How Bioware decides to differentiate between same sex or opposite sex versions of a romance is up to them.
My opposition to the gender roles concept specifically deals with the notion that certain behaviors are inherently masculine or feminine, which often leads to the belief that men and women should act according to those stereotypes.
In this particular context, someone said Kaidan was acting feminine in animations and was mentioning bisexuality alongside it.

Modifié par Collider, 04 mars 2012 - 04:06 .

[Quething]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Collider wrote...

I'm thinking a Jade Empire sequel would be a decent setting for a serious transgendered character.

[...]
But yeah, I think it would be a great idea, if Bioware ever returned to the setting. 

I.... really, really do not.

This is the studio that gave us the "'female' dwarf" prostitute, and the entire clusterfrack that is the asari, krogan and salarians generally. They are shaky enough on cis gender roles to begin with. Twice, they have put trans characters in their games, and twice, those characters have existed solely for the purpose of playing a "lol trap" joke on the player. Serendipity they almost redeemed slightly in the Tallis DLC by making the joke about Hawke, except they screwed up the dialog there too and managed to make a joke at the expense of her gender by accident all the same.

I would not trust them near trans issues with a thirty light year pole.

[KillTheLastRomantic]

Daashi wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...

 Did they do the Ken stuff this time?  I thought I heard a rumor that earlier in the development of ME2 they were going to put a female Shepard with Ken (a la Kelly Chambers), but ended up not doing that?  I don't know, maybe I'm making things up and have just lost my mind.  

I heard that, but I got the impression it was created as a little "fan" joke. You know the image of Ken in a stripper outfit shaking his a*** for Shepard.

Also in that one video of the Normandy tour



Small potential spoilers






I didn't see Ken or Gabby but Engineer Adams is there instead. Can K&G die in ME2? Maybe they are replaced by Adams in that case.

[Weltea]

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

Daashi wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...

 Did they do the Ken stuff this time?  I thought I heard a rumor that earlier in the development of ME2 they were going to put a female Shepard with Ken (a la Kelly Chambers), but ended up not doing that?  I don't know, maybe I'm making things up and have just lost my mind.  

I heard that, but I got the impression it was created as a little "fan" joke. You know the image of Ken in a stripper outfit shaking his a*** for Shepard.

Also in that one video of the Normandy tour



Small potential spoilers






I didn't see Ken or Gabby but Engineer Adams is there instead. Can K&G die in ME2? Maybe they are replaced by Adams in that case.

They can die but I got the impression that Shepard just picks them up later in the game whereas Adams just comes along from the beginning...(just speculation though)

[Daashi]

Progressive_Stupidity1 wrote...

Also in that one video of the Normandy tour



Small potential spoilers






I didn't see Ken or Gabby but Engineer Adams is there instead. Can K&G die in ME2? Maybe they are replaced by Adams in that case.

According to the partially leaked script that I have read you can recruit Ken and Gabby or just Ken, probably depending on how ME2 played out. The Normany Vid takes place pretty late in the game, and the guy said that people who could appear were probably dead.

Modifié par Daashi, 04 mars 2012 - 04:12 .

[Sherbet Lemon]

Weltea wrote...

Village Idiot wrote...

 Did they do the Ken stuff this time?  I thought I heard a rumor that earlier in the development of ME2 they were going to put a female Shepard with Ken (a la Kelly Chambers), but ended up not doing that?  I don't know, maybe I'm making things up and have just lost my mind.  

I remember that rumor but there's some Ken/Gabby flirting dialogue (at least in the old script) so I don't think so....but maybe a new NPC fills that role? And we just haven't heard about him yet?
Does that sound possible or am I just grasping at straws?

No, no makes sense to me.  It should be interesting to see what's available in the game for her.

[SolidBeast]

TMA LIVE wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

TMA LIVE wrote...

Look, I don't think it's intentional. I do think they're reusing Ash's animation out of laziness. But it is making Kaidan more feminine, and thus falling into the stereotype.

One good thing BW does is avoid stereotypes.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't their intention.

Also, are your sure that your bias on this isn't leading you to interpret his animations as 'more feminine' when they might not be all that different?

It could be just the intro levels, and then things are different later on. But from what I've seen so far, animation wise, he does exactly what Ash does.

Think of it like the open legs thing Femshep does.

What's wrong with that, except when she's in a dress (in a scene where she wasn't supposed to wear a dress, anyway)? Isn't that the point? It's just your perception that sitting like that should be restricted to males, just as it's your perception that Kaidan's animations are "feminine".