25715 réponses à ce sujet

[shepskisaac]

Quething wrote...
You have to admit, even with all bias aside, that that's just bloody weird.

Unless they looked at it from balance perspective - FemShep already had Liara. Available from day 1 at that. If Ash was available, then FemShep would've had 4 f/f romances granting Paramour achievement in ME3 - Liara, Ash, Kelly & Samantha. Twice as much compared to GayShep

[Sporothrix]

IsaacShep wrote...

Quething wrote...
You have to admit, even with all bias aside, that that's just bloody weird.

Unless they looked at it from balance perspective - FemShep already had Liara. Available from day 1 at that. If Ash was available, then FemShep would've had 4 f/f romances granting Paramour achievement in ME3 - Liara, Ash, Kelly & Samantha. Twice as much compared to GayShep

Kelly and Samantha are just flings with barely any dialogue, and Casey Hudson has chepaned romance with Liara forever by insisting it's not lesbian at all. So if you talk about "balance", then you guys got two full fledged and real romances, while we just one discount lesbian option and few mere flings.

[shepskisaac]

misoretu9 wrote...

Kelly and Samantha are just flings with barely any dialogue, and Casey Hudson has chepaned romance with Liara forever by insisting it's not lesbian at all. So if you talk about "balance", then you guys got two full fledged and real romances, while we just one discount lesbian option and few mere flings.

No, Kelly in ME2 + ME3 is a full romance to me, with serious commitement in ME3. And I still don't get how can Casey's statement change how YOU view Liara and what's said in the game. If I was going by what Bioware's PR says, then my GayShep should've been cheapened forever as well after all these "predefined" statements and excuses. He's not, he's just as "legitimately gay" as he's been ever since I made him when ME1 was released. Everyone knows it's just PR. One of the devs said it blatantly on old BW forums that the team views Liara's romance just like everyone does it - a lesbian romance. Patrick Weeks mentioned multiple times the letter from lesbian fan about Liara and how he was happy that he could've provided her a character like her. I mean, Bioware devs are the same people as we are and if we see it as lesbian romance, how could they not too lol?

Modifié par IsaacShep, 21 mars 2012 - 02:21 .

[Frozen83]

Game_Fan_85 wrote...

Besides, we don't really know how much time the relationship is set over. The game has to be set over a few months surely?

Going to quote myself...

Frozen83 wrote...

Any, as you said, it is a matter of perspective. To me it seems like he has burried his grief for months, until the mission starts. Then he sees people around him on Normany (and Shep), fighting with him and it brings back memories and feelings he's been ignoring for quite some time. He breaks and Shep has a chance to help him get through this. As the missions progress, Steve starts to feel connection between himself and his crewmates (and Shep) and is afraid that he might forget about his husband (whom he loved very much). Shep then reassure him that his memoiris are his own and that he shouldn't forget about him, but still move on and concentrate on the task ahead. I believe that all this lasts about few moths (you must help Palaven and Tuchanka, and do some exploration), plus six months of Shep being on Earth plus a couple of months before in ME2 when you learn about Ferris Fields = about a year since Robert died at that point.

There. And I like the explanation "both have some loses, emotional scars, etc.".
Just think. Shep's parents are dead, his team on Akuze is dead, Ash is dead, Mordin is dead, Thane is dead... M.

[Sporothrix]

IsaacShep wrote...

misoretu9 wrote...

Kelly and Samantha are just flings with barely any dialogue, and Casey Hudson has chepaned romance with Liara forever by insisting it's not lesbian at all. So if you talk about "balance", then you guys got two full fledged and real romances, while we just one discount lesbian option and few mere flings.

No, Kelly in ME2 + ME3 is a full romance to me, with serious commitement in ME3. And I still don't get how can Casey's statement change how YOU view Liara and what's said in the game. If I was going by what Bioware's PR says, then my GayShep should've been cheapened forever as well after all these "predefined" statements and excuses. He's not, he's just as "legitimately gay" as he's been ever since I made him when ME1 was released. Everyone knows it's just PR. One of the devs said it blatantly on old BW forums that the team views Liara's romance just like everyone does it - a lesbian romance. Patrick Weeks mentioned multiple times the letter from lesbian fan about Liara and how he was happy that he could've provided her a character like her. I mean, Bioware devs are the same people as we are and if we see it as lesbian romance, how could they not too lol?

Good that Kelly is a full romance for you, but I take it just as attempt to make your point that it's fair that lesbians got less by insisting that those flings are more that they really are. The fact is both Kelly and Samantha are uncomparable in terms of dialogues and development to other romances.

And when it comes to Liara, it is lesbian romance of course, but Bioware stance has left great distaste. They gave you full fledged gay male romances so IMO they compansated for treatment of gay males. But they never revoked words about Liara.

It's more about how lesbians and gay men are treated by society. As Tv tropes page about "Discount lesbians" say, it was merely a  device used within the story to maintain a status quo that lets the (presumed) audience watch two hot chicks making out without having to think about the associated real-world issues or feel threatened by the notion of a genuine relationship between two women with no need for a man.

And what changed in ME3? They added lesbian "romance" which could be described as this" "Hi! Hi! Let's have hawt girl on girl action in the shower!". 

Like I said before, just like in tv shows, lesbian themes occur far more often than gay male ones, but it's not treated with respect, just as a turn on for straight dudes. When gay male theme occurs, you could be sure it will be portrayed with full respect. And that's exactly how it was treated in ME series.

Modifié par misoretu9, 21 mars 2012 - 02:55 .

[shepskisaac]

misoretu9 wrote...
But they never revoked words about Liara.

And they never revoked their words about GayShep either.

misoretu9 wrote...
by the notion of a genuine relationship between two women with no need for a man.

TV tropes ain't the answer to everything because as obvious as it is that Asari pander to straight guys, Asari do in fact NOT need a man.

[Frozen83]

misoretu9 wrote...

And what changed in ME3? They added lesbian "romance" which could be described as this" "Hi! Hi! Let's have hawt girl on girl action in the shower!".

Hmmm, and if the shuttle pilot was lesbian? That would be interesting. Two girls, talking about cars and drinking beer in Purgatory. Oh, and gay male yeoman... Playing chess with Shepard. And then in the next scene putting the chess pieces in places they shouldn't go... That would be very stereotypical. My my, if the roles were the other way around... We really dodged a bullet here . M.

[bleetman]

IsaacShep wrote...

No, Kelly in ME2 + ME3 is a full romance to me, with serious commitement in ME3.

Yeah, a few seconds of dialogue followed by a fade-to-black nonscene absolutely constitute a 'full romance'.

Modifié par bleetman, 21 mars 2012 - 04:17 .

[zer0netgain]

Frozen83 wrote...

zer0netgain wrote...

Frankly, it would have been awesome for Shepard to go to the men's room on Deck 3 (darn game wouldn't allow this for FemShep) and catch James standing in front of the mirror, barechested, and posing his muscles while telling himself how damn sexy he is.

My mind just went somewhere dirty... Like... cheap porn dirty.
@ Asperius & Isaac - dont fight, guys ...
M.

Well, if you think that's dirty....

Consider the layout of the restrooms on Deck 3.  No privacy is one thing, but the whole "4th wall" opens to the hallway whenever someone walks past.  Hope you aren't bashful when showering or trying to drop the kids off at the pool.

It also seems odd that people make a big issue about LI in the game at all (why James isn't one of them).

Consider that in normal chains of command it is utterly frowned upon for someone to be in a relationship with someone under their direct command.  Shepard and Kaiden/Ashley would be an anomoly in and of itself, but I suppose they get around it because in ME the "romance" happens after they've stolen the Normandy for the Ilos mission.

In ME3, technically, James, Steve and Traynor would be off limits because Shepard is their direct commander.

[luukee]

Just nosing around the web and I found this, which was an interesting and refreshing read. Some of the comments were good as well, restored some of my faith in humanity

Modifié par luukee, 21 mars 2012 - 06:34 .

[Cuddlezarro]

LOL at liaras "dad" cant believe I missed her on my first 2 playthroughs


oh Liara how is it you are the damn shadow broker and dont know that yet XD

edited for screenies instead of my ****** poor description

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 21 mars 2012 - 07:26 .

[Criz]

she was there on my first playthrough, but I only got the two of them to talk, I never got this conversation ... did I miss it or is it related to Shepard/Liara romance?

also I think to remember that Shepard mentions seeing her watch a picture of Liara, so it may be tied to watching the surveillance footage in the Shadow Broker Ship ...

[Cuddlezarro]

Criz-Zone wrote...

she was there on my first playthrough, but I only got the two of them to talk, I never got this conversation ... did I miss it or is it related to Shepard/Liara romance?

also I think to remember that Shepard mentions seeing her watch a picture of Liara, so it may be tied to watching the surveillance footage in the Shadow Broker Ship ...

it has nothing to do with being in a romance with liara(hence the "lol u still single" comment) you just need to get them speaking and you can run past them talking about stuff (like Liara threatning to flay some one alive in ME2 and her mother)

[Knightly_BW]

zer0netgain wrote...

In ME3, technically, James, Steve and Traynor would be off limits because Shepard is their direct commander.

If I didn't know ME3's story I would be right there with you. However ME 3 is a war story. When you are in a war with dim hope to win, all those little rules can be loosen or completely ignored.

Shepard needs all the moral support he can get. This is why Garrus and Liara have that friendship talks. This is why Shepard needs someone to turn to when things get grim. That guy/gal is loosing his/her friends, see people die, feeling weight of entire species on his/her shoulders. Not like he is taking advantage of his rank or anything. It is something natural under that stress factors. I don't think Hackett or Anderson would judge him because of starting a relationship. Even Anderson should start a relationship if Sanders was on Earth. It is end of the world and most people want to go death without regrets. This is why also I like Tali/Garrus relationship in ME3. Tho' keep feeling sorry for poor Liara... she is all alone in love.

Anyway back on my modded Shep/Kaidan romance:
- After Cerberus Scientists conversation is normal as it has no difference between male and female Shepards.
- After mail date scene also runs as regular m/m one.

Just waiting for romance scene now. If it is also runs like m/m one than I can think of replaying this run on normal speed. Gave up so many sacrifices (Poor Jack and Samara).

[Bellendaine]

Awesome news, Asperius. I'm waiting for your final report, and if it's all well, I think I'll suck it up and do a full playthrough with a modded MShep and Kaidan in ME1. The bugs so far seem to be minor with only a few unvoiced lines and some music funkiness. I can live with that ... if I can get past being called "ma'am" in ME1 ... (*shudders* ... shakes my faith in my fragile masculinity ... ).

[Sporothrix]

Frozen83 wrote...

misoretu9 wrote...

And what changed in ME3? They added lesbian "romance" which could be described as this" "Hi! Hi! Let's have hawt girl on girl action in the shower!".

Hmmm, and if the shuttle pilot was lesbian? That would be interesting. Two girls, talking about cars and drinking beer in Purgatory. Oh, and gay male yeoman... Playing chess with Shepard. And then in the next scene putting the chess pieces in places they shouldn't go... That would be very stereotypical. My my, if the roles were the other way around... We really dodged a bullet here . M.

Funny thing that there was never any butch/tomboy LI for female character in any Bioware game - they are all pretty genderly normative. Well, maybe Juhani could count based on looks alone (mostly bald, but that's rather due her race), but not her behaviour.

And BTW, if roles were the other way around, which would mean only two, very shallow, dialogues with not even one scene on Citadel, I'm sure no one here, including lesbian players, would pretend it's 'full romance'.

Modifié par misoretu9, 21 mars 2012 - 07:42 .

[Sporothrix]

IsaacShep wrote...

misoretu9 wrote...
But they never revoked words about Liara.

And they never revoked their words about GayShep either.

They revoked it by actions - by giving two full fledged real gay male romances. Meanwhile, when it comes to Liara, everything remains the old way.

IsaacShep wrote...

misoretu9 wrote...
by the notion of a genuine relationship between two women with no need for a man.

TV tropes ain't the answer to everything because as obvious as it is that Asari pander to straight guys, Asari do in fact NOT need a man.

But the point of this is to degay it (only when we count that as lesbian relationship, those fears of "genuine relationships between two women with no need for a man" could occur). You think why even today countless of people keep arguing on various forums that there is nothing lesbian in relationship with Liara because she's of "monogender" race? And why Hudson said what he said?

And don't forget about "genuine relationship" part. Thing you could have with Samantha, because of it's serious underdevelopment and focus on rather tasteless sex scene, is only "hawt girl on girl action". Can't be considered as genuine relationship.

Modifié par misoretu9, 21 mars 2012 - 08:07 .

[Nejeli]

Asperius wrote...

Isaac or Frozen as well represented their point of view about Steve romance, which were similar to yours. In life we see things from our point of view. I also don't approve Shepard's actions with Steve if he's trying to romance with him. I think real reason behind is, that would exactly what I would do if I want to bang a guy like Steve. Keep pushing him to forget his ex-husband, broke the bonds of loyality, be good and supportive then profit. Time doesn't matter, it could take years or decades, goal is clear, banging that guy. I can't call that as genuine romance.
That Carth Syndrome also existed with Sky. He was mourning over his dead wife. However big difference was your character declares his affection for him and he comes around and accept it. With Steve all talks of Shepard is feel like forcing him to move on so he could sex/romance with him.

To me there is a big difference with a dead lover and ex-lover. Dead interrupt love but it continues to live. With break up love destined to end any way. So instead of waiting for natural emotional healing, pushing someone to get over that pain and lost ain't my thing. Anyone doing that not a person with good intentions in my book. If you really love a guy, wait and he will come to you when he feels ready.

This is why I like his friendship path more, because Shep doesn't wait something in return. This is why I don't like his personality (and Shepards) on romance. In romance Shepard is pushy b*tch who tries to get into Steve's pants and Steve is low-willed indivudal who gives in a sexual predator. I value loyality over everything in relationships. If I can't assure myself I will be loyal I will stay away from that relationship and expect same from other side. Also this is why I like Kaidan that much, he is loyal above anything else. While Steve sells his loyalty to first hormone driven hottie.

I guess this comes out a bit messed up however I hope that explained my point of view.

Putting his husband to rest and moving on isn't 'breaking bonds of loyalty' with him. Robert is dead. The only person getting hurt by Steve's inability to let go is Steve. Steve is never going to love him any less than he did. He's not going to wake up one day and go 'Man, I'm glad he died. Shepard is so much better!' Nothing about Steve's character suggests that.

Grief isn't as cut-and-dry as you're trying to make it. There's no set mourning period that someone should go through before they're ready for a relationship, especially in a canon where everyone could die tomorrow. Steve has lost people close to him, Shepard has lost people close to him. Have you considered that maybe Shepard really was just trying to help Steve and they mutually fell for each other over that time? Instead of viewing it as Shepard grooming Steve for sex and Steve being so weak-willed that he can't say no (and I don't know where you got that idea from, he seems pretty self-assured and confident to me, even on a romance path), why not try and see it as them helping each other in a time and place where everyone has lost too much? Also, you keep forgetting, or just ignoring, that Robert was begging Steve to let him go. It was practically his dying wish. Denying his growing feelings for Shepard because 'it's just been a few months, he should grieve longer' would be disrespectful to what Robert actually wanted.

Honestly, because of your last paragraph there and your insistance that romancing Steve is bad and viewing that romance in the worst possible light you can, despite evidence to the contrary, I'm starting to think that you're just trying to find ways to 'prove' that Kaidan's romance is better. Kaidan is strong and loyal! Steve is weak and wishy-washy and easily swayed by his hormones! Kaidan's romance is more meaningful because he's been waiting for Shepard for years! Steve tossed his husband's memory out after a few months! As someone who likes both characters, and has seen Steve dissed to elevate Kaidan enough in these forums to be irritated by it, I don't get this kind of versus thinking. They're two different characters with two different storylines and two different romance arcs. They're not even in direct competition for Shepard's affections. They're both perfectly happy being Shepard's friends.

[Criz]

Bellendaine wrote...

Awesome news, Asperius. I'm waiting for your final report, and if it's all well, I think I'll suck it up and do a full playthrough with a modded MShep and Kaidan in ME1. The bugs so far seem to be minor with only a few unvoiced lines and some music funkiness. I can live with that ... if I can get past being called "ma'am" in ME1 ... (*shudders* ... shakes my faith in my fragile masculinity ... ).

but being called princess by Harkin is priceless!
that whole scene makes up for being called ma'am all game by it's sheer hilarious tone
and you get more info on Kaidan and ... I'd done with the main quests in ME1, that leaves all the small stuff and then I can continue into ME2 and hugging on Horizon and then import into ME3 at some point ...

[Abispa]

I think one advantage Steve had over Samantha is that his job put in many extra situations in the game outside the friendship/romance. Samantha popped up occasionally. In retrospect, I think she should have been inserted into the allied general scenes. Given the importance of communications, she should have had scenes dealing with the Quarians, Geth, Turians, Quarians, etc. and helping them establish tactical information and logistics and commenting on it. It would have been a good way to make the war room seem more important.

Damn, though, did my evil female Shepard look creepy hitting on her, though. Especially with the corrupt cyborg face.

[Abispa]

Nejeli wrote...

Grief isn't as cut-and-dry as you're trying to make it. There's no set mourning period that someone should go through before they're ready for a relationship, especially in a canon where everyone could die tomorrow. Steve has lost people close to him, Shepard has lost people close to him. Have you considered that maybe Shepard really was just trying to help Steve and they mutually fell for each other over that time? Instead of viewing it as Shepard grooming Steve for sex and Steve being so weak-willed that he can't say no (and I don't know where you got that idea from, he seems pretty self-assured and confident to me, even on a romance path), why not try and see it as them helping each other in a time and place where everyone has lost too much? Also, you keep forgetting, or just ignoring, that Robert was begging Steve to let him go. It was practically his dying wish. Denying his growing feelings for Shepard because 'it's just been a few months, he should grieve longer' would be disrespectful to what Robert actually wanted.

There is an interesting wrinkle to their relationship if you former LI is dead in ME3.

[Frozen83]

Asperius wrote...

zer0netgain wrote...

In ME3, technically, James, Steve and Traynor would be off limits because Shepard is their direct commander.

If I didn't know ME3's story I would be right there with you. However ME 3 is a war story. When you are in a war with dim hope to win, all those little rules can be loosen or completely ignored.

I agree. All bets are off, everybody's going to die, so... Well... Even Cortez says something like tomorrow we're all dead, today is important! And in the end he and Kaidan have that "I'm going to do everything possible, fight to see you again, I have something to live for" line. M.

[Frozen83]

misoretu9 wrote...

... snip ...

Yes, you are right... My mind just goes to weird places sometimes... M.

[Chaotic Loon]

Criz-Zone wrote...

based on spicyshimmy's tumblr post about Kaidan and Shepard exchaning dogtags before heading into battle ...
now I'm back to crying when thinking about the endings (well, two of themthe third would make this image non-canon)

Awww, don't worry man....give it a week...or mabye 2 and the endings will feel less raw.  When I finished the game I was so depressed that my immune system practically surrendered to the cold I was waging war on (and winning previously)...finally over the damn thing (and the endings).

Modifié par Chaotic Loon, 22 mars 2012 - 11:07 .