25715 réponses à ce sujet

[Bellendaine]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Kaidan only says I love you to femshep before the sex scene and steve doesnt either

Yah, that bugged me ...

[MACharlie1]

It makes sense why Kaidan doesn't. If a rather lazy reason...

The scene where he says it to FemShep, she is on his lap and then lifts and carries her to the bed. Imagine that being manShep. First, I would imagine ManShep to be quite heavier then Kaidan - a biotic with a fast metabolism. And it would look rather...awkward...and rather transplanted from the FemShep. Add to it that it would used to be humorous rather then romantic since you have a grown man sitting on another's lap.

Not only that but it's pretty clear that they wanted it to be ambiguous who is "topping" who. Kaidan (or even Shepard) carrying the other would establish that one is dominant over the other.

And since Cortez has the whole dead husband thing, I would think the love proclamation would be too soon for him. 

Modifié par MACharlie1, 24 mars 2012 - 02:49 .

[bas_kon]

Zandilar wrote...
"Too many"? Seriously? That's your answer? "Useless m/m"? You guys got Kaiden and Steve, and neither of them was as half-hearted as Samantha.

Seriously, Kelly and Allers don't count. Kelly is a blink and you'll miss it kind of romance (it is possible for her to be alive, and yet be totally missed, and also she's easy to kill off without much effort at all - I'd have loved to interact more with Kelly, but I failed to tell her to get a new identity, and BOOM dead. I'm still bitter about it.), and Allers isn't worth the pixels she's made up of. (Oh HAI IGN, yes u can haz in game ad, gif uz munny!) (Disclaimer: I don't really have anything against either Diana Allers or Jessica Chobot beyond the clearly commercial nature of her inclusion in the game. I laud Jessica for having the guts to allow her virtual self to be bisexual, whether she herself is or isn't. But the fact is, her "fling" doesn't count as a romance for either straight or lesbian Shepards.)

Liara is a special case. You could argue that she's the secondary protagonist of the series, since there's nothing you can do to get her killed or completely leave her behind, she drives the story at points (Shepard would have died with the first Normandy, if not for her intervention), and those aspects of her are ubiquitous to every Shepard, not just to romancing Shepards. She is a good romance, don't get me wrong, and in some ways maybe she's got the most polished romance in the game - but that's something lesbian Shepard shares with straight male Shepard.

Kaiden shares some of these traits, however his role is also shared with Ashley. You can kill Kaiden, and Ashley will fill the same story role he does. Ashley in particular is lacking when it comes to fulfilling her role for female Shepard. I am not sure what Kaiden's friendship path is like, so I won't comment in depth on that here, but my gut tells me that his friendship is deeper because he can be romanced by both sexes.

However, I'm not done with Liara yet. There are a couple of problems with Liara that are romance/game breaking for some people who like f/f stuff. She's a mono-gendered alien, so some people have problems labeling the romance same-sex. My view is that it's only Shepard's perception that counts, and that heterosexual female Shepards wouldn't engage in a romance with Liara, therefore it is a lesbian romance. But there are other people who don't have that view, they think that Liara isn't really female, that she's just too alien, and that therefore it's more a xenosexual relationship than a homosexual one. I personally think it's a narrow view, but their opinion is just as valid as mine. These issues are NOT shared with Kaiden. Kaiden is clearly male, and clearly human, and therefore his romance with male Shepard cannot be taken to be anything other than homosexual.

(Aside here - Asari are mono-sexual. Sex and gender are two different things, with the former being the biological aspects (sex organs etc) and the latter being a social construct based on sex. The Asari don't have gender roles as we would think of them, therefore they're probably more likely to be either a-gendered (without gender) or poly-gendered (with multiple gender roles based on factors that don't involve biological sex).)

Finally, we have Samantha. The first you know about her romance is when she's hopping into your shower. Whether you join her or not, Shepard still perves on her. This is not a good start at all. Some people label it as soft core porn (I think it's too cheezy and funny to be porn, but I think I'm really in a minority here). You don't really get much more content with her than people in the friend-zone, from my understanding (having not finished my Samancer playthrough due to the fact that my shiney new computer has had to go back to where it came from to get its memory replaced). Plus she never seems to leave the ship, unlike Steve, you don't get a "date" with her. It's all very wham bam thank you ma'am.

(I have no idea why I seem compelled to write essays about this... I suppose it's probably because this is something I feel passionately about.)

You know, I think you missed the part in which I said it's silly they didn't make Ash bi. My point was that f/f has more content (full romance or not) than m/m, and they had the chance to continue a romance with someone of previous games, which m/m didn't. It's not fair that you say m/m won over f/f, because it's not true at all. It' doesn't matter whether you like Liara and/or Samantha's romance/s (some m/m people dislike both Steve and Kaidan's and rather Vega and couldn't have him).

Liara has the best romance in the series, hell I'm romancing her with lesb!Shep (and she is female/woman, I don't care what anyone else thinks, someone in the game even refers to Liara as a woman literally, plus she is voiced by a woman, not a transexual, not an hermafrodite and of course not a man) and Samantha is Steve's counterpart (I personally loved both romances, although I didn't like Sam's love scene), the other are not romances but are a plus that m/m doesn't have. Gender roles are something we all are trying to abolish nowadays, because they are something bad, thus it doesn't make sense to speak about them, or have them into account at all.

Plus Kaidan's romance scene is just a "censored" version of femshep's (they cut the part in wich they say I love you to one another) and when they are kissing in the bed, Kaidan's mouth is way higher than Shepard's (since Kaidan is supposed to be femshep en the scene). I love the romance and I'm very happy with it, but it wasn't just for m/m, at all. And Steve doesn't even have a scene, but a fade to black (although I rather that, than Sam's shower scene ).

I don't care for Ash as a character (the only playthrough I had her alive was Gibbed modded and used it to romance Steve since I can't say no to Kaidan, and she ended up killed by Shepard) but I respect that you like her and if you could have a romance with her I'd be happy for you. But what I can't stand is when people say m/m won over f/f (with content) because they didn't have the bi character they wanted, while still having more content. And with this, I'm not talking about you specifically. I support you and want you to have all the romances you want, but some of you shoudn't use the newly added m/m romances as an example of unfairness, because it isn't fair.

They (the people who think that it's a retcon) probably think that
because Kaiden showed no interest in male Shepard in the first game,
that means he was originally straight. If that was true, then yes, his
bisexuality is a retcon. They just don't seem to understand that people
don't have their sexuality stamped on their foreheads, and sometimes a
person's apparent sexuality will "change" (in other words, turn out to
be other than what they had assumed).

Well my first gay experience experience was with my best friend whilegoing to college, I didn't have sexual interest in him, neither he did in me before that. Then we had sex a few times and ended up in love and having a 4 years monogamous relationship, which only ended because of the distance.
So no, according to my life experience it's not a retcon even if some people want to see that so. In fact, I see more natural the progression of m!Shep/Kaidan's relationship than f!Shep/Kaidan's, since in the first atraction and deep feelings manifest from friendship to "love" (without naming it) little by little through the trilogy to have the climax at the last chapter, while the latter is rusher, with too much trust and too much feelings from the beginning. Then again I might be biased by my own experiences, but this is just my opinion, no need to take it seriously. 
 

I am not quite sure what you mean. Are you saying that Leliana and
Zevran should have been either straight or purely gay? Because on the
balance, if Bioware had gone that path, following their previous
pattern, Leliana and Zevran would most likely have been straight. And
then I'd be forced to kill the person who made that suggestion. (I liked
Leliana as a romance, and I didn't really feel all that upset that I
didn't get Morrigan. I liked Morrigan as a sisterly character, but I
doubt any of my kind/good hearted Wardens would have wanted to be
romantically involved with an individual so selfish.)

Note that I was saying if they don't want to go the all bi route (which by the way is what I also defend).
Also, I wasn't talking about them specifically, I was just saying they should always make the male AND female lead characters bisexual by default, and their romance should be well integrated to the main plot. I'm not talking about personal preferences of backgrounds, since we don't know the future characters yet, I'm just talking about amount and importance of content. If they want to add optional characters with minor roles and restricted/unknown sexualities, I don't care. Maybe I'll want to s/s romance one "minor" character, and will not be able (I love Steve and his romance, though I'm sad femshep can't experience THAT, because Steve has more romance content than Kaidan, imo). But at least, I'll have the lead character. I rather few well done and important to the main plot choices than many superficial ones (and so do you, since you don't like to count Kelly and Diana as f/f options/content, which they are).

Making everyone Bi seems to be the fairest way to handle things.  But I'm sure a lot of people would disagree with me.

 

On that, I agree with you. But the "straight male gamer" doesn't, so I'm not sure if they'll do it again or maybe they are afraid of bothering the "big whiny beast" a second time. Only time will tell. I for one, want everyone to be available like in DA2. That's the best route, and the one that gives you more replayability.

Modifié par bas_kon, 24 mars 2012 - 03:46 .

[Abispa]

I believe that the characters and their romances had different writers and that may account for the difference in love story quality. Maybe Steve just lucked out.

Jacob is the worst. Not because his is unrealistic (I'm sure situations like this happen far too often), but I find it sad that one of the better written romances in ME2 (after the awkward cougar introduction), featuring a Black male, ended in such a disappointing fashion.

When he said his "the prize" line, it seemed like he was talking about something special between him and female Shepard that went beyond sex. He was the only one that allowed her to vent over her frustrations with Cerberus and the Alliance.

Kaidan felt guilty about dating someone two years after Shepard died, but Jacob knocks another woman up when Shepard is awaiting trial on Earth for six months.

I jumped all over Slimgrim when he said Jacob was a bad Black stereotype because of "the prize," but now? Maybe slimgrim has premonition because now he IS a Black stereotype. Slimgrin, I'm sorry.

"I had Miranda, and then I had you, and I just had to keep things going, you know? Six months is a LONG TIME for me, honey, and did you see her? She is fine! Too bad I forgot that how to use birth control since neither you no Miranda have working plumbing."

I almost wish he were a s/s option just so I could see what kind of confrontation scene Bioware would have come up with for Sheploo.

[Abispa]

Bellendaine wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Kaidan only says I love you to femshep before the sex scene and steve doesnt either

Yah, that bugged me ...

Is that to EVERY female Shepard, or just the ones who continued a romance from ME1? Maybe the "new" females don't get that scene?

[Abispa]

bas_kon wrote...

On that, I agree with you. But the "straight male gamer" doesn't, so I'm not sure if they'll do it again or maybe they are afraid of bothering the "big whiny beast" a second time. Only time will tell. I for one, want everyone to be available like in DA2. That's the best route, and the one that gives you more replayability.

I agree, but with ONE exception. IF the writers have no preference. I believe that the writer SHOULD be able to say, "I want this character to be 'straight' or 'gay' but not 'bi'."

It is hard to distill the truth from rumors around the DA LI process, but as I understand it, Morrigan's writer wanted her straight. Alistair's writer thought it would work to have him be gay or bi, but was told to keep him "straight" because DA:O already had Zevran. I have heard conflicting rumors that Leliana was supposed to be a lesbian, but she was made "bi" so nice male Warden wouldn't be stuck with the witch.

If this is true, then it shows tha the process of creating LI isn't about "realism" or "character integrity" but on what the developers assumes will make the best fan service. Always has been a fan service, LONG before DA2.

[Bellendaine]

Abispa wrote...

Bellendaine wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Kaidan only says I love you to femshep before the sex scene and steve doesnt either

Yah, that bugged me ...

Is that to EVERY female Shepard, or just the ones who continued a romance from ME1? Maybe the "new" females don't get that scene?

Good question, not sure about that.

[goodventure]

Abispa wrote...

Bellendaine wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Kaidan only says I love you to femshep before the sex scene and steve doesnt either

Yah, that bugged me ...

Is that to EVERY female Shepard, or just the ones who continued a romance from ME1? Maybe the "new" females don't get that scene?

I believe every FemShep, new or old, gets an "I love you" line from Kaidan.

[bas_kon]

Abispa wrote...

Bellendaine wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

Kaidan only says I love you to femshep before the sex scene and steve doesnt either

Yah, that bugged me ...

Is that to EVERY female Shepard, or just the ones who continued a romance from ME1? Maybe the "new" females don't get that scene?

I only tried out the imported one, but afaik, the option's available for both f!Shep's romances, which doesn't make sense, since they just started the relationship and there was no actual romance build up enough to say "I love you". Not to mention that f!Shep has to actually reject Kaidan's advances to go unromanced through ME. Thus, new f!Shep should be more similar to m!Shep than to imported ones in that aspect, imo of course.

Abispa wrote...
I agree, but with ONE exception. IF the
writers have no preference. I believe that the writer SHOULD be able to
say, "I want this character to be 'straight' or 'gay' but not 'bi'."

It
is hard to distill the truth from rumors around the DA LI process, but
as I understand it, Morrigan's writer wanted her straight. Alistair's
writer thought it would work to have him be gay or bi, but was told to
keep him "straight" because DA:O already had Zevran. I have heard
conflicting rumors that Leliana was supposed to be a lesbian, but she
was made "bi" so nice male Warden wouldn't be stuck with the witch.

If
this is true, then it shows tha the process of creating LI isn't about
"realism" or "character integrity" but on what the developers assumes
will make the best fan service. Always has been a fan service, LONG
before DA2.

My thought exactly, but the thing is, most of the times both lead characters fit to be bisexual and the only reason to have them being straight is that they are, in fact, lead characters and/or s/s is thought not to be worthy enough of the time and resources. And as you said, Gaider himself said Alistair could have perfectly been bi but he wasn't, and not because it didn't fit the character. Thank god, they didn't do it with Liara/Kaidan in ME3 and Anders/Isabella in DA2.

If the character's background and/or role in the main plot, makes mandatory for him/her to be straight, then I'm fine with it. Although I'd like that character to be less important than the bi ones, so less people miss important content. Also, I've yet to see a bi male LI that admits to have truly loved another man AND can fall for a female character, as well. Some of us, live our sexuality without hiding it from our female partners and women irl have to learn that a man who have loved another can also love her, because that's bisexuality.

[Cuddlezarro]

so last night I was just doing Jacobs mission in me3 (though he was dead in my game and after seeing what they did to his romance im glad i offed the bastard) one of the scientists near the entrance has steves voice... it was very awkward for me =3

[Game_Fan_85]

bas_kon wrote...

My thought exactly, but the thing is, most of the times both lead characters fit to be bisexual and the only reason to have them being straight is that they are, in fact, lead characters and/or s/s is thought not to be worthy enough of the time and resources. And as you said, Gaider himself said Alistair could have perfectly been bi but he wasn't, and not because it didn't fit the character. Thank god, they didn't do it with Liara/Kaidan in ME3 and Anders/Isabella in DA2.

Alistair should have been bi, no doubt about it.  I'm pretty sure every guy that played DAO knew the truth about Alistair's character   Steve Valentine played him so pefectly too, I don't like "camp" characters but Alistair had just a touch of campyness and it worked so well for the character overall.  The way Alistair became all jealous of my warden's relationship with Morrigan was so cute.  At the end of my first DAO play through(360), it said my warden stayed with Alistair as his "advisor" and that they were always together, no mention of a "queen" or children or anything.  I also liked that in DA2 the only thing that was mentioned was Alistair getting back to the castle because the warden was returning.  No queen.

I really think that all the gay fan adoration of Alistair in part led to DA2's design.  I just hope BioWare don't let the ignorant morons out there change DA3 in the LI department.  I very much doubt that the next game will be marketed to the non BioWare RPG fan though, as DA2 was so hopefully they will not be forced to make changes to avoid "scaring off potential customers" as Chris Priestly so insultingly put it.  Paraphrasing I know, but that is what I took from his anit-love interest posts.

[MACharlie1]

Game_Fan_85 wrote...

bas_kon wrote...

My thought exactly, but the thing is, most of the times both lead characters fit to be bisexual and the only reason to have them being straight is that they are, in fact, lead characters and/or s/s is thought not to be worthy enough of the time and resources. And as you said, Gaider himself said Alistair could have perfectly been bi but he wasn't, and not because it didn't fit the character. Thank god, they didn't do it with Liara/Kaidan in ME3 and Anders/Isabella in DA2.

Alistair should have been bi, no doubt about it.  I'm pretty sure every guy that played DAO knew the truth about Alistair's character   Steve Valentine played him so pefectly too, I don't like "camp" characters but Alistair had just a touch of campyness and it worked so well for the character overall.  The way Alistair became all jealous of my warden's relationship with Morrigan was so cute.  At the end of my first DAO play through(360), it said my warden stayed with Alistair as his "advisor" and that they were always together, no mention of a "queen" or children or anything.  I also liked that in DA2 the only thing that was mentioned was Alistair getting back to the castle because the warden was returning.  No queen.

I really think that all the gay fan adoration of Alistair in part led to DA2's design.  I just hope BioWare don't let the ignorant morons out there change DA3 in the LI department.  I very much doubt that the next game will be marketed to the non BioWare RPG fan though, as DA2 was so hopefully they will not be forced to make changes to avoid "scaring off potential customers" as Chris Priestly so insultingly put it.  Paraphrasing I know, but that is what I took from his anit-love interest posts.

*has seen a real life gay Alistair* 

.....and he's taken....

[Cuddlezarro]

*gleefully had alistair executed*

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 24 mars 2012 - 08:56 .

[Chun Hei]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

*gleefully had alistair executed*

http://t2.gstatic.co...no0kgxFepLJsJVV

Is that YOU, Cuddlezarro?

[MageTarot]

Abispa wrote...

I almost wish he were a s/s option just so I could see what kind of confrontation scene Bioware would have come up with for Sheploo.

No confrontation but plenty of Cerberus guy-on-guy action:

Some mods are totally worth it.

[Bellendaine]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

*gleefully had alistair executed*

Hateful!  I totally crushed on Alistair, and was thrilled about the mods so I could make Lord Graeme Cousland and he naughty aristocratic lovers.    It was like watching "Brideshead Revisited" in Ferelden or something. 

Modifié par Bellendaine, 24 mars 2012 - 10:18 .

[MageTarot]

Bellendaine wrote...

Hateful!  I totally crushed on Alistair, and was thrilled about the mods so I could make Lord Graeme Cousland and he naughty aristocratic lovers.    It was like watching "Brideshead Revisited" in Ferelden or something. 

Me too! My first playthrough used the "Equal Love" mod so my dashing, porn-'stached rogue noble Arturo Cousland (that's him in my forum avatar) ended up married to Alistair.


I busted out laughing when he introduced me to the people of Ferelden as "Your new queen."


I was like, "If you people only knew...."

[Criz]

MageTarot wrote...

Abispa wrote...

I almost wish he were a s/s option just so I could see what kind of confrontation scene Bioware would have come up with for Sheploo.

No confrontation but plenty of Cerberus guy-on-guy action:

Some mods are totally worth it.

it amuses me that Jacob can peel off his ARMOR like it's just a shirt, what will we get in the next game, spray on armor?

MageTarot wrote...

Bellendaine wrote...

Hateful!  I totally
crushed on Alistair, and was thrilled about the mods so I could make
Lord Graeme Cousland and he naughty aristocratic lovers.  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png  It was like watching "Brideshead Revisited" in Ferelden or something.  ../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png

Me
too! My first playthrough used the "Equal Love" mod so my dashing,
porn-'stached rogue noble Arturo Cousland (that's him in my forum
avatar) ended up married to Alistair.


I busted out laughing when he introduced me to the people of Ferelden as "Your new queen."


I was like, "If you people only knew...." ../../../images/forum/emoticons/wink.png

the "Equal love" mod is the single best thing that happened to DAO - period
I don't think I ever played a straight character in any Dragon Age game ... it was a good thing Anders wasn't available in DAO-A or I would have been torn between my love for Alibear and Anders ...

[Game_Fan_85]

Cuddlezarro wrote...

*gleefully had alistair executed*

Evil!

[MageTarot]

Criz-Zone wrote...

it was a good thing Anders wasn't available in DAO-A or I would have been torn between my love for Alibear and Anders ...

Now that would have been a true moral dilemma!  I totally loved Anders' personality in DAO-A more than his 'angry mage' psyche in DA II.  But alas, in Awakening he only mentioned beautiful ladies so a s/s mod would have been awkward at best.


YouTube clip of Anders in sexy robes FTW! 


And remember...he didn't do it!! 

[Cuddlezarro]

Chun Hei wrote...

Cuddlezarro wrote...

*gleefully had alistair executed*

http://t2.gstatic.co...no0kgxFepLJsJVV

Is that YOU, Cuddlezarro?

maybe

suffer not the whiny unfunny hypocritical **** to live was my motto

I hated having to put with Alistair for 95% of the game

atleast wynne, Zevran and Leliena could die long before then

Modifié par Cuddlezarro, 24 mars 2012 - 10:46 .

[Game_Fan_85]

Criz-Zone wrote...

the "Equal love" mod is the single best thing that happened to DAO - period
I don't think I ever played a straight character in any Dragon Age game ... it was a good thing Anders wasn't available in DAO-A or I would have been torn between my love for Alibear and Anders ...

Agreed, I don't play PC games but I had to make an exception with Origins for Alistair   Bought a wireless keyboard/mouse and had my laptop hooked up to my TV via HDMI so it was fairly similar to playing a normal game for me.  It would be hard to go back to the 360/PS3 playstyle now.  Also finally played KOTOR the same way after finishing Origins PC last year, loved it.  I played the XBOX version when it came out, got to the first fight and thought it was crap and never touched it again.  I am so gad I rectified that now that I *get* how the games play.  I now find it hard to believe that I had a similar reaction to Origins back in 2009.  Gave it another chance after ME2 and fell in love, with Alistair and the game.

MACharlie1 wrote...
*has seen a real life gay Alistair*

.....and he's taken....

Real life Alistair, now that would be something!

[MACharlie1]

Game_Fan_85 wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...
*has seen a real life gay Alistair*

.....and he's taken....

Real life Alistair, now that would be something!

I'd show you but I've told myself not to go anywhere near anything related to him. 

Not thinking about him. Nope. Noseree. Not at all. He's the furthest thing from my mind...

[Aithieel]

MACharlie1 wrote...

Game_Fan_85 wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...
*has seen a real life gay Alistair*

.....and he's taken....

Real life Alistair, now that would be something!

I'd show you but I've told myself not to go anywhere near anything related to him. 

Not thinking about him. Nope. Noseree. Not at all. He's the furthest thing from my mind...

Omg, this cannot be true! People like this doesn't exsist in RL!

[MACharlie1]

Aithieel wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

Game_Fan_85 wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...
*has seen a real life gay Alistair*

.....and he's taken....

Real life Alistair, now that would be something!

I'd show you but I've told myself not to go anywhere near anything related to him. 

Not thinking about him. Nope. Noseree. Not at all. He's the furthest thing from my mind...

Omg, this cannot be true! People like this doesn't exsist in RL!

Oh they do...only they're taken or (in my case) straight/a thousand miles away AND taken. <_<

Modifié par MACharlie1, 24 mars 2012 - 11:12 .