7744 réponses à ce sujet

[Jonata]

fainmaca wrote...
I guess you are right with that. I am glad Jack's romance is the most complicated one in the franchise. And it does make for replay value. Take note, Bioware- denying us content because of previous choices is not a bad thing!

Denying us Jack as a squadmate in ME3 no matter what was the choice, however, is a different story...

[DarkPrinceRevan]

lillitheris wrote...

Udalango wrote...

I am seriously bugged by all the people that like Jack all of a sudden now that ME3 changed her.
You didnt like he in the second game so you prolly didnt go talk to her all that often. so you dont KNOW anything about her. You know that you didnt like her because she was bald and tatted...and vulgar. They are incredibly shallow ugh

I don’t think that’s entirely fair. The character development at the end of ME2 and in ME3 is fairly reasonable, I think.

ME2 on the ship she was also a touch overboard for me. Not in the sense that emo grimdark people like that don’t exist, but that people with non-imaginary problems usually don’t act that way. I liked to think that the Jack who came on the missions with me in ME2 was the ‘real’ Jack.

Of course disclaimer is that being a girl I didn’t have her as a romance option, just as a reluctant friend

this is not to pick a fight or anything but i dont think you can really draw a distinction between how Jack behaved on the ship as oppose to what she does and says during missions and say ones real over the other. she specifically says that she'll fight for your mission and back on the ship she points out that your getting into her personal space when you start bombarding her with questions. lots of characters exhibit different behavior during interactions that make up their full personality, heck i can make the case that the Jack that wrote and submitted that poem is the real Jack underneath the facade of 'hard as nails b***h' she makes herself out to be.

[Jonata]

DarkPrinceRevan wrote...

lillitheris wrote...

Udalango wrote...

I am seriously bugged by all the people that like Jack all of a sudden now that ME3 changed her.
You didnt like he in the second game so you prolly didnt go talk to her all that often. so you dont KNOW anything about her. You know that you didnt like her because she was bald and tatted...and vulgar. They are incredibly shallow ugh

I don’t think that’s entirely fair. The character development at the end of ME2 and in ME3 is fairly reasonable, I think.

ME2 on the ship she was also a touch overboard for me. Not in the sense that emo grimdark people like that don’t exist, but that people with non-imaginary problems usually don’t act that way. I liked to think that the Jack who came on the missions with me in ME2 was the ‘real’ Jack.

Of course disclaimer is that being a girl I didn’t have her as a romance option, just as a reluctant friend

this is not to pick a fight or anything but i dont think you can really draw a distinction between how Jack behaved on the ship as oppose to what she does and says during missions and say ones real over the other. she specifically says that she'll fight for your mission and back on the ship she points out that your getting into her personal space when you start bombarding her with questions. lots of characters exhibit different behavior during interactions that make up their full personality, heck i can make the case that the Jack that wrote and submitted that poem is the real Jack underneath the facade of 'hard as nails b***h' she makes herself out to be.

Also, I think Jack is not a one-sided character like many other videogame cliché. She's just like you and me: I'm not "the character", I'm a different person depending on the situation, I've got many layers in my personality. 

She's not the "hard as nails b***h" just like she's not only the "Jacqueline Nought", she's both and many others. Jack has many faces just like a true human being, she's just a lot more complicated to understand because of her past... she cope with pain and tries to be herself at the same time.

...and that's why she's effin' amazing.

Modifié par Jonata, 19 mai 2012 - 03:36 .

[lillitheris]

Jonata wrote...

...there could be many points of view about why Jack is what she is during ME2, and how she actually is, but she has one of the most compelling personality of the entire trilogy and one of the best character arc, so you cannot say she is a cliche or an "emo grimdark" girl (jeez!), that means you do not understood the character behind her attitude. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's simply not right and kind of shallow.

I’ll preface this by stating explicitly that what I write below is my opinion.

I didn’t say she is a cliché. I wish I could express my problem with how she was portrayed in ME2 better, because the distinction between “she is emo grimdark” and “she came across as emo grimdark” is the crux of my argument. I‘ll also remind you that I was responding to someone else calling those who didn’t like ME2 Jack shallow, which is essential in understanding the context.

Someone else a couple posts up talked about how Jack is putting up this tough front that you have to get through, but that’s explicitly not my point either.

The way the on-ship Jack was written is not the tough front of someone who’s genuinely troubled for want of a better word. The way she is written is the tough front of an emo grimdark person with imaginary problems. The writers cranked her up to 11 when 10 or even 9 would have been better and more realistic. That is my problem. It’s a failing of the writing, not the character itself, and I think that was a turnoff for many people.

You’re welcome to disagree, of course, but please don’t insult my intelligence by asserting that there’s one single correct interpretation.

[Udalango]

@liltheris. I called people who didnt like her for those reasons shallow. I actually know a couple of people like that and have seen many on this forum who said they liked how she looked "More normal" in this one. If the person went down talked to her and said meh not for me. (Like my brother) then saw her in ME3 and said something like "Hey that was kinda fun. I enjoyed that" I wouldnt say they are shallow. but thats just my opinion

As for your more recent statement. I never once got an imaginary problems vibe from her and I would be curious as to what it was that gave you one.
I understand why she acts like that on the ship. How many people have actually ever been kind to her? One? And look what that got him. She makes it very clear that she will fight but she isnt part of your team....she is more like a weapon than a squadmate. She doesnt want to talk to you but you keep pressing and break her down little by little.

[Udalango]

lillitheris wrote...

The ME3 hairstyle is beautiful (disclaimer: I’m known to have had buzzed sides on occasion, so I’m partial…)

I don’t mind the one in the picture, it looks fine too, but it’s certainly not a requirement for making her pretty. The current hair is a good compromise, as Jack’s got a head that’s not best shape to be completely shaven unlike, say…uh, who was the woman in Vendetta? She has a perfectly shaped skull. Wish mine was like that

If you mean V for Vendetta that is Natalie Portman who is beautiful

[lillitheris]

Udalango wrote...

@liltheris. I called people who didnt like her for those reasons shallow. I actually know a couple of people like that and have seen many on this forum who said they liked how she looked "More normal" in this one. If the person went down talked to her and said meh not for me. (Like my brother) then saw her in ME3 and said something like "Hey that was kinda fun. I enjoyed that" I wouldnt say they are shallow. but thats just my opinion

That’s fair, and I’m certainly not asserting that I’m describing everyone who didn’t like her, just that it shouldn’t be generalized the other way around either.

As for your more recent statement. I never once got an imaginary problems vibe from her and I would be curious as to what it was that gave you one.

The way she was written matches more closely my experience with those with imaginary problems than those with real ones. Here, again, I’m not asserting that my impression isn’t the objective truth, but that it is what it is, and I don’t think I’m the only one who got that vibe.

…

Edit: yes, Natalie Portman! That girl has the perfect head for no hair. I don’t, have to leave some

Modifié par lillitheris, 19 mai 2012 - 04:52 .

[Udalango]

This will prolly sound kinda A holey. But do you know anyone who had problems anywhere near close to Jack's? I dont. So I wont act like I know how they should act.

Jack acts a lot like a couple of abused dogs I have met. They wont go out and actively try to hurt you. But get in their space and they are going to let you know exactly what they think of it. But you can break it down after a while and they will accept you wont try and hurt them. But they still wont exactly want you around....Getting an abused dog to trust you enough to even be close is a ton of work. They get hurt so often they assume all humans are aholes, which is close to how I felt with Jack.

Also I think you might over estimate the amount of people who had that reason to not like her. Plus fake problems screams Miranda (dislikes Miranda highly)

[DarkPrinceRevan]

lillitheris wrote...

Jonata wrote...

...there could be many points of view about why Jack is what she is during ME2, and how she actually is, but she has one of the most compelling personality of the entire trilogy and one of the best character arc, so you cannot say she is a cliche or an "emo grimdark" girl (jeez!), that means you do not understood the character behind her attitude. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's simply not right and kind of shallow.

I’ll preface this by stating explicitly that what I write below is my opinion.

I didn’t say she is a cliché. I wish I could express my problem with how she was portrayed in ME2 better, because the distinction between “she is emo grimdark” and “she came across as emo grimdark” is the crux of my argument. I‘ll also remind you that I was responding to someone else calling those who didn’t like ME2 Jack shallow, which is essential in understanding the context.

Someone else a couple posts up talked about how Jack is putting up this tough front that you have to get through, but that’s explicitly not my point either.

The way the on-ship Jack was written is not the tough front of someone who’s genuinely troubled for want of a better word. The way she is written is the tough front of an emo grimdark person with imaginary problems. The writers cranked her up to 11 when 10 or even 9 would have been better and more realistic. That is my problem. It’s a failing of the writing, not the character itself, and I think that was a turnoff for many people.

You’re welcome to disagree, of course, but please don’t insult my intelligence by asserting that there’s one single correct interpretation.

idk, calling her on-ship moments a "failing of writing" feels like a knock to her characterization as a whole and what i liked most about her in the first place, hearing about her past makes me want to care more about how i handle her and not write her off as a lost cause not even worth fighting for. i believe something is lost in transition from ME2 to ME3 with Jack that she loses abit of something that was unique to her and your left with something to appeal everyone ME3 but not satisfy her fans carried over from ME2

Modifié par DarkPrinceRevan, 19 mai 2012 - 05:22 .

[kumquats]

Udalango wrote...

This will prolly sound kinda A holey. But do you know anyone who had problems anywhere near close to Jack's? I dont. So I wont act like I know how they should act.

You can't meet someone, who was raised as a baby in isloation and without love. Like I said, scientist did experiments like that.
All the animals died of anxiety. That's why I wrote Jack is in my opinion a very well adjusted woman.
In reallife, she shouldn't be alive.

Of course we can argue, that monkeys don't have feelings like humans and they are only animals.
Personaly, I think they come as close to Jack's situation as you can get.

[lillitheris]

Udalango wrote...

This will prolly sound kinda A holey. But do you know anyone who had problems anywhere near close to Jack's? I dont. So I wont act like I know how they should act.

Yes, though they’re not all the same. And, for the record, they’re not exactly like abused dogs despite all our animal instincts.

The thing here is that you can’t convince me that she was portrayed realistically. I can’t convince you that she wasn’t, that’s not in my agenda. All I’m trying to get across here is that there are various reasons for thinking that the ME3 ‘changes’ were good or even preferring ME3 over ME2, and they don’t all boil to ‘not getting’ her. I get what the writers were trying to do, I just don’t think they succeeded 100%.

[Udalango]

lillitheris wrote...

Udalango wrote...

This will prolly sound kinda A holey. But do you know anyone who had problems anywhere near close to Jack's? I dont. So I wont act like I know how they should act.

Yes, though they’re not all the same. And, for the record, they’re not exactly like abused dogs despite all our animal instincts.

The thing here is that you can’t convince me that she was portrayed realistically. I can’t convince you that she wasn’t, that’s not in my agenda. All I’m trying to get across here is that there are various reasons for thinking that the ME3 ‘changes’ were good or even preferring ME3 over ME2, and they don’t all boil to ‘not getting’ her. I get what the writers were trying to do, I just don’t think they succeeded 100%.

Lol ya I know they arent EXACTLY like abused dogs.  Our rescue dog loses bladder control after loud noises.  But Agree to Disagree then 

[spirosz]

I'm dieng, the way he used Jack in his new video is hilarious - Gamer Poop - Mass Effect 3 (#4)

[Jonata]

lillitheris wrote...

Jonata wrote...

...there could be many points of view about why Jack is what she is during ME2, and how she actually is, but she has one of the most compelling personality of the entire trilogy and one of the best character arc, so you cannot say she is a cliche or an "emo grimdark" girl (jeez!), that means you do not understood the character behind her attitude. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's simply not right and kind of shallow.

I’ll preface this by stating explicitly that what I write below is my opinion.

I didn’t say she is a cliché. I wish I could express my problem with how she was portrayed in ME2 better, because the distinction between “she is emo grimdark” and “she came across as emo grimdark” is the crux of my argument. I‘ll also remind you that I was responding to someone else calling those who didn’t like ME2 Jack shallow, which is essential in understanding the context.

Someone else a couple posts up talked about how Jack is putting up this tough front that you have to get through, but that’s explicitly not my point either.

The way the on-ship Jack was written is not the tough front of someone who’s genuinely troubled for want of a better word. The way she is written is the tough front of an emo grimdark person with imaginary problems. The writers cranked her up to 11 when 10 or even 9 would have been better and more realistic. That is my problem. It’s a failing of the writing, not the character itself, and I think that was a turnoff for many people.

You’re welcome to disagree, of course, but please don’t insult my intelligence by asserting that there’s one single correct interpretation.

First of all I want to say that I'm sorry if what I wrote seemed like an insult to your intelligence: I stated more than once in my posts that there cleary isn't one single interpretation to Jack's character. There are many, that is a fact. 

But I just think that her way to act in-ship during ME2 doesn't look anywhere near an emo grimdark person with imaginary problems. Allright, I know and respect the fact that you can get that vibe out of her but I just cannot see how: she goes from -**** off- to -allright, what about becoming pirates?- to -I'll tell you something about my past because I need help- to (if romanced) -please help me, be my support-. This is pretty much the sum of her character-arc in ME2 and you know what? I see a very intelligent person coping with her problems without losing her unique way of being "herself".  

She doesn't lose herself in ME3 either, I just think and support who says that people who liked her in ME2 actually were at least a little bit more forward-looking or capable to see under her skin. She's a strong person who need some help and I see exactly that during her dialogue scenes in ME2. I don't see any failure.

[kumquats]

spiros9110 wrote...

I'm dieng, the way he used Jack in his new video is hilarious - Gamer Poop - Mass Effect 3 (#4)

omg lol, that was funny. xD

[lillitheris]

Jonata wrote...

First of all I want to say that I'm sorry if what I wrote seemed like an insult to your intelligence: I stated more than once in my posts that there cleary isn't one single interpretation to Jack's character. There are many, that is a fact. 

But I just think that her way to act in-ship during ME2 doesn't look anywhere near an emo grimdark person with imaginary problems. Allright, I know and respect the fact that you can get that vibe out of her but I just cannot see how: she goes from -**** off- to -allright, what about becoming pirates?- to -I'll tell you something about my past because I need help- to (if romanced) -please help me, be my support-. This is pretty much the sum of her character-arc in ME2 and you know what? I see a very intelligent person coping with her problems without losing her unique way of being "herself".  

She doesn't lose herself in ME3 either, I just think and support who says that people who liked her in ME2 actually were at least a little bit more forward- looking or capable to see under her skin. She's a strong person who need some help and I see exactly that during her dialogue scenes in ME2. I don't see any failure.

Fair enough! Now, back to your irregularly scheduled all things Jack.

[Confused-Shepard]

Here is a question,

Which fictional characters would have an interest in Jack, romantically or otherwise?
Conversely, which fictional characters would Jack herself be attracted to, as in "Oh he's so badass!"

My money is on Solid Snake. He'd probably think she was a botched Psycho Mantis style experiment or a former puppet of the patriots. No romantic interest but would want her as an ally in any fight. Maybe try to get her out of her shell similar to Shepard. Would easily be sympathetic with her situation. He himself is a genetic experiment and has seen the worst of torture, war and what it does to people.

Can totally imagine as a boss...

[lillitheris]

Confused-Shepard wrote...

Here is a question,

Which fictional characters would have an interest in Jack, romantically or otherwise?
Conversely, which fictional characters would Jack herself be attracted to, as in "Oh he's so badass!"

James Vega.

[Confused-Shepard]

I wonder how committed Jack is to her relationship with Shepard
Say he survives the ending of Mass Effect 3 but is paralysed from the waist down or even in a coma
Would Jack stick around for Shepard's sake (other family & friends would be there) or would she leave and try to forget? Then again, FAMOUS WAR HERO & SAVIOR OF THE GALAXY IN A COMA would pretty much be news of the hour and she couldn't really run away.

I say with reference to what happened with Murtock except he died of course.

[Premier Bromanov]

lillitheris wrote...

Confused-Shepard wrote...

Here is a question,

Which fictional characters would have an interest in Jack, romantically or otherwise?
Conversely, which fictional characters would Jack herself be attracted to, as in "Oh he's so badass!"

James Vega.

I think he'd bore her out of her mind.  It might be a fling.  Anything else would burn out really fast.

@Confused-Shepard,

I think she'd stick around, but she'd be torn up about it.  This is ME3 Jack, so she has a greater sense of duty and social position.  It'd definitely test how "informal" their relationship can be.

Modifié par Premier Bromanov, 21 mai 2012 - 07:38 .

[Dr. Doctor]

I can't really picture Jack and Vega together, but that's partially because all we really know about Vega is that he's a soldier there's not much else to go on. Although I could see Jack making a few remarks about him though:

Normandy Cargo Bay

Shepard: (sees Jack watching Vega working out) Should I be worried?

Jack: Don't think so. Meathead here's easy on the eyes but he's as dumb as a ****ing stump.

Vega: (doing a pull up) That hurts Jenny.

Jack: 'Least I can tell the difference between a omni-tool and a hole in the ground Jimmy.

Shepard: So it looks like I don't have to deck the lietutenant then?

Jack: No...although if you two wanted to fight it out in a mud pit I'd pay to watch that.

[Padt]

lillitheris wrote...

Confused-Shepard wrote...

Here is a question,

Which fictional characters would have an interest in Jack, romantically or otherwise?
Conversely, which fictional characters would Jack herself be attracted to, as in "Oh he's so badass!"

James Vega.

Yeap. I've thought about this since even before ME3 came out, back when there was only the leaked script to go on. I could very much see it.

Confused-Shepard wrote...

I wonder how committed Jack is to her relationship with Shepard
Say he survives the ending of Mass Effect 3 but is paralysed from the waist down or even in a coma
Would Jack stick around for Shepard's sake (other family & friends would be there) or would she leave and try to forget? Then again, FAMOUS WAR HERO & SAVIOR OF THE GALAXY IN A COMA would pretty much be news of the hour and she couldn't really run away. 

I say with reference to what happened with Murtock except he died of course.

 
I think it'd probably be similar to the way she regarded Shepard after he left to turn himself into the Alliance. Which is to say that I don't necessarily think she would actively pine for him or try to find a way to be with him, but at the same time, she probably couldn't help but carry a torch of sorts for him. I think her initial instinct would probably be to occupy her mind and herself with other things - her kids, Alliance work, whatever. Try not to think about it too much, you know. How long she would keep that up and what would happen after that is not something I can speculate quite clearly on right now.

You know what I've always been curious about? What happened between Jack and Shepard after Arrival, but before ME3. Specifically, how the conversation (well, assuming there was a conversation) in which Shepard told Jack that he'd soon be leaving her to go to Earth played out. How he worded himself, what her reaction was, the things they said to each other, etcetera. Judging by their reunion in ME3, I imagine it couldn't have been pretty. Would be interesting to see.

[Premier Bromanov]

Dunno if Jack would go for anyone, if not Shepard, considering her new job. Even with MaleShep's persuasive nature and male magnetism, she seemed hesitant to accept taking him back.