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"Hello Dead People!": The Jackolyte Society


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#6451
Jonata

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lillitheris wrote...

Jonata wrote...

Now Kaidan, IIRC, actually made some kind of homophobic remarks when you romance Liara with FemShep in ME1, …


YDRC.

She is the way she is. I think it doesn't only help to fight prejudice and to exclude her from the "bad girls cliché" category, but also makes clear that she's not there to be the player's toy but to be herself, without compromise.


She’s only a toy for some players currently, instead.

I’d reiterate that ‘different sexual orientation depending on the sex of the player character’ is not the same as ‘bisexual’, but people are so hung up in orientation that it‘s just pointless…the majority is attached to theirs with the strength only insecurity creates, and the minority (somewhat justified) feels any malleability delegitimizes their orientation.

So, you know. Whatever.


Never wanted to turn this into a sexual orientation discussion. 

It's more about the instrumentalization of character's sexual behavior in order to make the gamer feel the most cool and sexy man/woman in the galaxy. I don't like it, it deprives characters of deep and make games look like the creepy dream of a loner. That's why I think ME show sexuality in a very "natural" way: Jack is straight, Cortez is gay, Liara is bi. There's nothing the gamer can do about it, it's what they are. For example: you want to romance Cortez? Do a ManShep playthrough, he's not gonna fall for your sexy FemShep because you demand it. I like that.

Also, the bisexual bad girl is a done-to-death cliché, and I'm glad they do not went there. That's all I wanted to say. 

#6452
Premier Bromanov

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lillitheris wrote...

She’s only a toy for some players currently, instead.

I’d reiterate that ‘different sexual orientation depending on the sex of the player character’ is not the same as ‘bisexual’, but people are so hung up in orientation that it‘s just pointless…the majority is attached to theirs with the strength only insecurity creates, and the minority (somewhat justified) feels any malleability delegitimizes their orientation.

So, you know. Whatever.


I'll restate my argument that Jack being straight defies a cliche and a stereotype.  That is reason enough for me to respect the character's agency.  I think there's a "message without a message" there, just as there is with Traynor and Cortez.

Hell, Jack stating she's not interested in women is reason enough for me to respect the character's agency.

And this isn't DA2, and some characters have a stated, or at least heavily implied sexual orientation.  In DA2, the LIs are in a state of "quantum sexual orientation", which I think accurately describes what's going on there.

#6453
Premier Bromanov

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axl99 wrote...

Jack saying no to femShep in ME2 is nothing compared to the figurative ****block that was Samara.
I honestly wouldn't have it any other way.


And that's nothing compared to being told Samara "almost-romancers" would receive something significant in ME3, and instead they received...yeah.  :unsure:

Modifié par Premier Bromanov, 19 juin 2012 - 02:25 .


#6454
Dr. Doctor

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@ Premier Bromanov

I had a Shepard who "romanced" Samara in ME2, then I tried to romance Sam only to find out she was exclusive to femshep. Forever alone.

#6455
Premier Bromanov

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Dr. Doctor wrote...

@ Premier Bromanov

I had a Shepard who "romanced" Samara in ME2, then I tried to romance Sam only to find out she was exclusive to femshep. Forever alone.


Huh?  The "almost-romance" isn't exclusive to FemShep.  And MaleShep can't get the "romance"-exclusive line with Samara in ME3, can't he?

#6456
DarkPrinceRevan

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Premier Bromanov wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

@ Premier Bromanov

I had a Shepard who "romanced" Samara in ME2, then I tried to romance Sam only to find out she was exclusive to femshep. Forever alone.


Huh?  The "almost-romance" isn't exclusive to FemShep.  And MaleShep can't get the "romance"-exclusive line with Samara in ME3, can't he?


i think he means he tried to romance Traynor and shes only into FemShep and EDI lol

#6457
spirosz

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Posted Image

#6458
SlottsMachine

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Those were the days!

#6459
fainmaca

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Hey guys! I'd better let you know that I've updated Into The Unknown, with the latest section of Chapter 46 featuring yet more of our favourite lady of all time. You can find that here.

In other news, I'm trying something a little new, and I was wondering if any of you guys might be interested? I figured it safest to ask in this thread as here I am least likely to get Turian Snot Theory or whatever the more... uh... 'dedicated' fan groups are doing now. But anyway! this is a chance for any of you authory types to try out something new, and maybe help to create something pretty cool for people to take part in. I'll post my original proposal I put up in the Fan Creations forum:

fainmaca wrote...

Okay. After some thought and deliberation, I've finally decided to try and get this idea of mine in motion. Time to find out if it works or not.

First off, HEAVY SPOILERS for Into The Unknown. You have been warned.

As some of you may or may not know, I've been busily creating a new, separate continuity to tell my version of the Reaper War for just under a year and a half now, writing my own version of events in order to show how to avoid certain traps that I felt Bioware might (and sadly did) fall for, and to get the ideas bouncing around in my skull out and on the page. Currently I'm sitting above the rough halfway mark, with the return of the main Reaper armada a looming threat while a very real and very present Reaper force of over a hundred Reapers, Harbinger among them, occupy the Sol system, striving to turn our rare Sun into a new Citadel capable of bringing back the rest of their force.

One thing i wanted to achieve with this fanfic was to get people involved in it as much as possible. I can do that with the main fic through presenting the 'in-game' choices as votes they can contribute to. However, I have hoped for some time now to expand this outside involvement with additional material, such as artwork, audio recordings, and eventually, additional fiction, once the main plot and all characters have been dealt with.

I'd like to give the additional fiction angle a go with a small trial, to see if it works. So I feel the bast way to do this is to pick a moment which can be expanded upon without needing to worry about what i might have planned for later on in the main plot (I.E. No need to fret about the death of an NPC that has a larger destiny further down the line). The Battle of the Draktarra Plains gives me a perfect opportunity for this, as it ties up plenty of plot threads without leaving any I'll need later on.

What I'd like to do is get the involvement of fanfiction authors like yourselves to help expand on the events told in Chapter 39 of my fic, specifically the final battle for Tuchanka, by accumulating a series of fics dealing with characters outside of the squad Shepard used for the mission (Shepard, Grunt, Mordin, Thane, Delexia and Wrex).

So consider this a formal invitation to come play around a bit in the sandbox I've been creating for the past 18 months. You can try a one-shot about just one of the members of the squad who Shepard didn't take with him, a little something about what Joker was doing above the battlefield, maybe build on one of the many Krogan NPCs we meet through the first two games or I've introduced in the main fic. Maybe you'd even like to try a few chapters about a Krogan squad completely unconnected to Shepard and his team. As long as the plot of the battle isn't changed from 'canon' (as much as it can be called that when the whole continuity is AU anyway), you can go wild.

Would any of you be interested in this? At the moment, its purely an experiment, but later on once more of the main plot is wrapped up I would be interested to see if people would like to write DLC missions, deal with any NPCs I might have missed, even perhaps scenes on the Normandy that they'd have liked to see written, but I never thought of (obviously that might have to wait till I really finish the fic in case I have them planned for closer to the end of the story). Heck, maybe some of you would even like to try writing the alternate paths to the story (be it based on choices in the fic, or in the previous games).

if you want any further info, don't be shy! i'd be all to happy to answer.


So what do you think? Any of you want to try your hand at writing a couple of scenes with the psychotic biotic in the middle of the battle for a planet?

#6460
Padt

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Ugh.

This is not an argument that I'm particularly keen to engage in on any sort of continued basis, because I know that if I do then at some point I will inevitably wind up losing my patience and saying something I'll regret, and that'll have some negative consequences for me and possibly for the ongoing existence of this or other threads on the forum. And frankly, it isn't worth the trouble. So I'll just limit myself to concisely stating my views in this post:

I think it's painfully obvious that Jack was devised with the idea in mind that she would be a queer person, and I think her character and her role in the game are strongly diminished by the fact that at some point during development they evidently decided to scrap that idea. I mean, it's complete crap that absolutely none of the main love interests in Mass Effect 2 are available for same-sex romances, but I think it's especially egregious in Jack's case, and that she, in particular, suffers the most for it. And while I'll freely state that I consider her one of my favorite characters and love interests in the series, I was and continue to be severely unnerved by the implications that arise from the fact that she's only available as a love interest for males. You ask me? These arguments that have been thrown around about how it would somehow be "cliché" or "pandering" for Jack to be available for both genders hold less than no water at best and are completely fallacious at worst, and frankly, seem like nothing other than the product of painfully entitled and privileged heteronormative views on sex and sexuality. Yay for prescriptive nonsense.

I really wanted to say more about this, but given the state of mind I'm currently in, and the emotional responses these subjects tend to trigger for me, it'd probably be wise if I just stopped here, lest I start veering into that territory I mentioned a couple paragraphs ago that I wanted to avoid. I will say that in my mind, Jack is and remains a queer person, and that's also the headcanon that I apply when I play as the one Shepard I currently have who is paired up with her. He knows it, he doesn't care a whit. Shame more heterosexual men aren't like that.

Modifié par Padt, 20 juin 2012 - 03:49 .


#6461
CrimsonN7

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Padt wrote..

I think it's painfully obvious that Jack was devised with the idea in mind that she would be a queer person, and I think her character and her role in the game are strongly diminished by the fact that at some point during development they evidently decided to scrap that idea. I mean, it's complete crap that absolutely none of the main love interests in Mass Effect 2 are available for same-sex romances, but I think Jack, in particular, suffers the most for it. And while I'll freely state that I consider her one of my favorite characters and love interests in the series, I was and continue to be severely unnerved by the implications that arise from the fact that she's only available as a love interest for males. You ask me? These arguments that have been thrown around about how it would somehow be "cliché" or "pandering" for Jack to be available for both genders hold less than no water at best and are completely fallacious at worst, and frankly, seem like nothing other than the product of painfully entitled and privileged heteronormative views on sex and sexuality. Yay for prescriptive nonsense.


Yep I agree with you here, would it have really been that big of a deal if Jack was a bi option? As a member of the minority community I would have loved to have seen more options for us in the series. Yes I know Liara is there but not everyone is a fan, Samantha was bundled in at the last chapter so you couldn't have formed a proper conection with the character IMO. There should have been proper romance arched same-sex options in ME2 and I would have leapt at the chance to romance Jack if it was there. But because of Bioware denying us this I'm forced to create a male Shep to romance Jack which is unfair<_< More option, more equality, actual choice for the non-straight gamer, something similar to Dragon Age perhaps:whistle:

Modifié par CrimsonN7, 20 juin 2012 - 02:16 .


#6462
SlottsMachine

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In principle I agree with Premier, but when I see gamers such as yourselves not being able to play the game the way you want, all those arguments fall away. More options for everyone.

Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 20 juin 2012 - 02:18 .


#6463
Jonata

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Padt wrote...

You ask me? These arguments that have been thrown around about how it would somehow be "cliché" or "pandering" for Jack to be available for both genders hold less than no water at best and are completely fallacious at worst, and frankly, seem like nothing other than the product of painfully entitled and privileged heteronormative views on sex and sexuality. Yay for prescriptive nonsense.


I'm sorry but I have to disagree on this. To drop big words like "heteronormative sexual views" because I (and some other guys) stated that a bi-Jack would have been cliché I think it's a bit too far. As I said before, the bisexual bad girl with an attitude is a cliché, not because of BioWare views on sexuality but because of the way characters like her has been used in movies and entertainment in general during the last years. Jack would've been different? Absolutely, but it's pretty difficult to come up with a unique "bad girl" character, especially in these days where almost everyone need to be "bad" in order to look cool. Making her bisexual would have at least gave a reason for people to mark her as a cliché. 

Also, it's good to see that characters in Mass Effect do not have that "quantum sexuality" that has been mentioned before regarding Dragon Age: when they change their sexual orientation in order to be after the player's character, the look more like tools and less like deep personalities. If a character has a strong personality I don't see why he can't have a defined sexuality.

It's not like Mass Effect has heteronormative views after all: i repeat, Diana Allers is bisexual, Cortez is gay, Jack is straight. It's just who they are, they're not waiting to see if Shepard is a man or a woman to chose their sexuality and I like that.

#6464
The Naga

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spiros9110 wrote...

Posted Image


More posts like this and less arguing about Jack's sexuality. She is what she is and let's leave it at that. Good grief, people.

#6465
SlottsMachine

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The Naga wrote...

More posts like this and less arguing about Jack's sexuality. She is what she is and let's leave it at that. Good grief, people.


Yeah, don't make me get out my whips and chains!


P.S. 

I don't actually have any whips and or chains. Sorry.

Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 20 juin 2012 - 06:06 .


#6466
kumquats

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Hehe, oh Mordin, what would Shepard do, without your sex advice.... I guess, he would be dead by now.

#6467
TripleLife

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This is just my take from some of the dialogue in ME2, but I think Jack and Tali were both meant to be bisexual love interests.

As far as the "bisexual bad girl" cliche, I don't know. I'd like to think that Jack's romance is deeper than that, and to a degree it is, but I've always been a little uncomfortable with the implication that Jack's emotional scars are healed by Shepard's magic stick. All along, she just needed some dude to ask her personal questions to fix her.

Obviously, there's more to it than that, but if you reduce anything to it's most basic level, it's probably going to turn into a cliche. It's not necessarily a bad thing, as long as it isn't approached in an exploitative or lazy way.

Of course, I'm in the camp of making all romanceable characters bisexual just so everyone can play the game as much how they want to play it as possible. It's not the least bit realistic, but it's a video game and it's supposed to be fun. It's not really a big deal.

#6468
Jonata

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GeneralSlotts193 wrote...

The Naga wrote...

More posts like this and less arguing about Jack's sexuality. She is what she is and let's leave it at that. Good grief, people.


Yeah, don't make me get out my whips and chains!


P.S. 

I don't actually have any whips and or chains. Sorry.



This thread definitely needs some whips and chains.

#6469
Padt

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Jonata wrote...

I'm sorry but I have to disagree on this. To drop big words like "heteronormative sexual views" because I (and some other guys) stated that a bi-Jack would have been cliché I think it's a bit too far. As I said before, the bisexual bad girl with an attitude is a cliché, not because of BioWare views on sexuality but because of the way characters like her has been used in movies and entertainment in general during the last years. Jack would've been different? Absolutely, but it's pretty difficult to come up with a unique "bad girl" character, especially in these days where almost everyone need to be "bad" in order to look cool. Making her bisexual would have at least gave a reason for people to mark her as a cliché.

The reason I "drop big words" like heteronomativity on this is because it appears to me that this is what informs the, frankly, completely nonsensical point of view that characters like Jack being available to either gender would somehow constitute "pandering", and I note that the "pandering" and "cliché" argument only comes up when we're discussing the possibility of a same-sex romance. Like it isn't cliché or pandering that she and other characters from Mass Effect 2 are romanceable in the first place? Why not? Because they're all straight? What this argument boils down to is this: when BioWare caters to your tastes and inclinations as a heterosexual person by making all the love interests heterosexual, it's okay. It's what's "normal", and so it is not and cannot be cliché or pandering. But if BioWare were to cater to the tastes and inclinations of LGBTQ people (with, I may add, the one character who is most perfectly tailored for it), then it stands out, stands apart. That sort of "catering to" we can and do indeed start seeing it as problematic and wrong and, by implication, something that BioWare shouldn't do. That is pure heteronormativity. Understand? Any time that you actively or passively disregard the needs, proclivities and idiosyncracies of LGBTQ people in favor of those of heterosexual people, any time that you assume heterosexuality as the "normal", neutral value and marginalize everything else in the process, relegate it to the status of otherness, you're engaging in heteronormative behavior.

And as far as the "cliché" argument is concerned: as it turns out, Mass Effect is already riddled with so-called "clichés" and tropes taken from other works of western fiction. All art and all fiction takes from other things and inspires other things in turn, be they from real life or otherwise. There is nothing intrinsically bad about this. But even if there were, I'd like to think we could handle one more little "cliché" if it meant that LGBTQ people could not only see themselves represented in something at least approximating equal step with everyone else, but also freely partake in the aspects of the gameplay concerning romance (which always has been one of the more charming and memorable elements in BioWare games in general and the Mass Effect series in particular) with characters who are like them. And this way, we also wouldn't be saddled with the aforementioned implications that stem from making a character like Jack only available as a romance option for men. I don't see how that can be anything other than a net gain in the mind of any fair and thinking person. And if some nearsighted people would've "marked" an extremely well-designed and extremely well-executed character who just happened to be queer as "cliché", so what? People already disregard and dismiss Jack a lot. It's their damn loss, and nothing that impacts on the people who enjoy her character. Certainly nothing worth attempting to erase queerness from a character who has it suffused into nearly every aspect of herself.

The whole point is moot, anyway. Mass Effect 2 came out over two years ago, and it's pretty unlikely that Jack or other previously-straight love interests will ever be turned into same-sex love interests, even through things like patching or DLC. People who want Jack and half of all the love interests in the series only for their straight Shepards have it the way they want it, and that's the way it's likely to stay. Everyone else who'd like to at least have an option, well...heaven forbid we pander to them with clichés.

Modifié par Padt, 20 juin 2012 - 11:57 .


#6470
lillitheris

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Premier Bromanov wrote...

Hell, Jack stating she's not interested in women is reason enough for me to respect the character's agency.


This is actually a nice narrative thing, I agree. Although, of course, it could also have been done with some other crewmember of not-Shepard’s-sex getting blown off because she’s not into not-Shepard’s-sex.

And this isn't DA2, and some characters have a stated, or at least heavily implied sexual orientation.  In DA2, the LIs are in a state of "quantum sexual orientation", which I think accurately describes what's going on there.


QSO is a fun term, but fundamentally incorrect when referring to a situation where the orientation is known, but varies with the PC — and I still want to point out that this isn’t the same as bisexual, which would be, say, Jack being into Dudeshep and Ashley in the same playthrough. Of course, being fundamentally incorrect has never stopped labeling things before, so maybe QSO could be used as shorthand to describe orientation that is changed based on the PC.

True QSO — which would be kind of awesome — would be a random roll at the start of each playthrough to determine the orientation for all potential LIs, so that regardless of Shepard’s sex, Jack could be either straight, gay, or other, without you knowing until giving it a go. For further realism, there should be a random chance that the LI’s just not into you that playthrough :happy:



But yeah, anyway…until I get around to recording some dialogue with voice morph delta to Hale and inserting the sound files, cheating with the male flag to get around the start of the romance for Jack/Tali/Miranda (which you can do now), it’ll not be quite the same :blush:

Topic dropped!

Modifié par lillitheris, 20 juin 2012 - 12:13 .


#6471
Jonata

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[EDIT'd out my answer to Padt]

You know what? I don't care enough about people's sexuality to waste all this space in a Jack thread.

Now back to Jackolicious pics, bad puns and funny cussing! 

Modifié par Jonata, 20 juin 2012 - 12:38 .


#6472
kumquats

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^
****, you sound like a ****.

[Edit]: I should have known, that Jack quotes get censored on the BSN. LoL

Modifié par kumquats, 20 juin 2012 - 02:09 .


#6473
Jonata

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kumquats wrote...

[Edit]: I should have known, that Jack quotes get censored on the BSN. LoL


I always enjoyed the irony of that.

#6474
DarkPrinceRevan

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Jonata wrote...

kumquats wrote...

[Edit]: I should have known, that Jack quotes get censored on the BSN. LoL


I always enjoyed the irony of that.


i think its kinda fitting since in the Shadow Broker files from ME2, Jack got banned from the Citadel fourms for excessive swearing and just typically trolling around. lol

which is even more hilarious in hindsight when you think about it that people use to try and troll the Jack threads

#6475
The Naga

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So EC DLC on June 26th...