7744 réponses à ce sujet

[spirosz]

It depends on which icon they are, left or right - its in the suicide guide in the ME2 forums, all in detail and such.

[LanceSolous13]

Interesting then. lol

[KingNothing125]

[Dr. Doctor]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

I want to think it is too, but everytime I've done that level and I bring my LI, They're always the one to be caught by Shepard.

I always seem to have Jack in the wrong spot and wind up catching Grunt, which would explain why Shepards constantly stretching his shoulder in ME2.

[KingNothing125]

I took Jack and Grunt everywhere I went in my last playthrough, I was hoping I would get to see Jack help Grunt up after the power comes back on in the derelict Collector ship... no such luck, though

I always leave Garrus, Grunt and Zaeed to hold the line though, cuz they're the heavy hitters in the suicide mission "who survives?" calculus.

[ToaOrka]

Jack's a great girl, she had the second best romance in the entire game (for a male Shepard, anyway), close behind Tali's. Seeing her open up after you reject sex in favor of getting to know her, it's excellently executed by Bioware.

[LanceSolous13]

I always get her over the call when I leave her behind.

[Premier Bromanov]

According to the supplementary material, the writers didn't decide until late what Jack's role in ME3 would be. I think it'd be cool to hear about the ideas that were left on the cutting room floor, so-to-speak.

[Dr. Doctor]

I think she was really, really close to being a squadmember. She's the only ME2 squadmate who got a redesign and she has the most fleshed out role of anyone from ME2.

[Jonata]

Premier Bromanov wrote...

According to the supplementary material, the writers didn't decide until late what Jack's role in ME3 would be. I think it'd be cool to hear about the ideas that were left on the cutting room floor, so-to-speak.

Yeah. According to the artbook, her 3D model was completed before they even decided to put her with the Alliance. I think there may be hope that some of those ideas will end up in a DLC. 

[LanceSolous13]

I would rather not have Jack-only Squaddie DLC. Others would complain and feel cheated no matter how great it was. Plus, Jack has the best reason of anyone else to not join Shepard again.

I would rather see Jack and Miri in a DLC together. Jack hates Miri for working with Cerberus, so where does this leave them when Miri gives TIM the middle finger? This is never explored. I would like to see more of that.

[KingNothing125]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

Others would complain and feel cheated no matter how great it was.

Don't care, frankly.

[LanceSolous13]

I would rather not hear anymore favortism of LIs, espicially since Liara STILL replaces my LI in the ending AND STILL makes passes at me even though I'm long since locked in with someone-ANYONE else.

[Jonata]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

I would rather not have Jack-only Squaddie DLC. Others would complain and feel cheated no matter how great it was. Plus, Jack has the best reason of anyone else to not join Shepard again.

I would rather see Jack and Miri in a DLC together. Jack hates Miri for working with Cerberus, so where does this leave them when Miri gives TIM the middle finger? This is never explored. I would like to see more of that.

Again, I don't like this because "arch-enemies" never entertained me much. I see Jack and Miranda as two completely different persons that were at short terms during ME2 for obvious reasons. This doesn't mean that there is a bond between them.

I know this is fiction, but usually in real life when you hate someone you don't have a love-hate bond because he "completes you" or something like that. You hate him, he disappears... well, good for you that you don't have to see his ugly face again.

So I'm pretty much concerned about this Miranda/Jack support. I just want a mission that can make you able to bring Jack with for a limited time (she has her students to look for) and give you some intimacy with her. If to do so they must add the possibility to bring someone else instead of her, like Miranda or Thane, then it's ok. But this Miranda/Jack DLC people are proposing... mh, I don't know.

I loved ME2 because it was so down-to-earth. The characters were deep and beautiful in a somehow emotionally realistic way. There were fiction cliché at work sometimes, like daddy issues buggering half the crew, but "The Lost" always seemed a bunch of troubled beings looking for their place in the universe that you could relate with. I feel afraid that something like the buddy  cop situation people wants for Jack and Miranda may break that feeling. 

I'm not completely against that Miranda/Jack DLC, but I would prefer something else. Just sayin'. 

Modifié par Jonata, 03 juillet 2012 - 05:58 .

[KingNothing125]

I think it would be harder to make Miranda DLC than it would Jack DLC.

Miranda, for the entirety of the game, is off tracking down her sister, (and this next part is key) and it's a surprise when she pops up on Horizon at the Sanctuary facility. So DLC starring Miranda would either not resolve anything because her story arc doesn't get resolved until Sanctuary, or her DLC would break her character by having her take a break from her search for her sister to go and gallivant around the galaxy with Shep for a little while.

I think the best Miranda boosters can hope for is a bit of fleshing out of pre-existing content. A better love scene, or another Citadel meet-up or something mundane like that.

Jack on the other hand, her story is resolved as soon as you leave Grissom. Sure, you know she's busy being mama grizzly to a bunch of chillens, but she doesn't have some larger story arc that remains unresolved until the end of the game. BioWare can come up with any number of reasons to separate Jack from her kids. They could be kidnapped (successfully this time) by Cerberus, or they could be assigned to Kahlee Sanders for a while, or screw separation, they could even come with you. BioWare's imagination is the limit to Jack DLC's potential.

[Jonata]

KingNothing125 wrote...
They could be kidnapped (successfully this time) by Cerberus, or they could be assigned to Kahlee Sanders for a while, or screw separation, they could even come with you.

I would love to have the kids on the Normandy interacting with the crew! 

Try to imagine the potential of Javik speaking with Rodriguez...

Modifié par Jonata, 03 juillet 2012 - 07:38 .

[fainmaca]

LanceSolous13 wrote...

I would rather not have Jack-only Squaddie DLC. Others would complain and feel cheated no matter how great it was. Plus, Jack has the best reason of anyone else to not join Shepard again.

As opposed to Admiral Tali'Zorah? The Primarch's own Reaper combat adviser? The Shadow Broker? That argument doesn't really stand. As far as I can see, EDI and Vega aside, the entire ME3 squad has better things they should be doing. Even Javik should be serving as an adviser, sharing his knowledge of the enemy with the Admirals rather than serving as just one more grunt on the frontlines.

I would rather see Jack and Miri in a DLC together. Jack hates Miri for working with Cerberus, so where does this leave them when Miri gives TIM the middle finger? This is never explored. I would like to see more of that.

I've never understood the fascination with pitting these two against/alongside one another. There's no personal vendetta there to make them nemeses. Miranda looks down on Jack for her unprofessional and irresponsible nature, while Jack resents Miranda because she is the figurehead of everything Cerberus on the Normandy. Neither perspective has a really personal motivation. If Miranda were not present, Jack would take her anger at Cerberus out on the next one in the chain (Jacob, probably, although I can picture her getting frustrated because he's pretty hard to get angry, IMO), and Miranda would try to enforce some kind of order from any unruly squad member (Even Shepard, truth be told).

I just don't see a powerful enough story there to build anything like a DLC from. Maybe a conversation or two, but not much more. Their relationship doesn't have the substance for more.

[royceclemens]

fainmaca wrote...

I've never understood the fascination with pitting these two against/alongside one another. There's no personal vendetta there to make them nemeses. Miranda looks down on Jack for her unprofessional and irresponsible nature, while Jack resents Miranda because she is the figurehead of everything Cerberus on the Normandy. Neither perspective has a really personal motivation. If Miranda were not present, Jack would take her anger at Cerberus out on the next one in the chain (Jacob, probably, although I can picture her getting frustrated because he's pretty hard to get angry, IMO), and Miranda would try to enforce some kind of order from any unruly squad member (Even Shepard, truth be told).

I just don't see a powerful enough story there to build anything like a DLC from. Maybe a conversation or two, but not much more. Their relationship doesn't have the substance for more.

I disagree.  Jack and Miranda are complete opposites.  So much so that they hate each other instinctively.  Hell, Jack's first words to Miranda, within thirty seconds of meeting her, are "You die first."

The thing is that they are SO opposed that in order for either of them to have any sort of arc whatsoever across the two games they're in, they have to start resembling each others' earliest incarnations.  Hell, it even presents itself at the end of ME2.  The point of Jack's development is to introduce doubt while the point of Miranda's development is to introduce certainty.  In order for these two to get to point Z within Mass Effect 2, they have to get to each others' point A.

I won't completely say that these two are fated to get along at long last for the sake of dramatics (though with the way they set it up, doing so would be easy), but given how the two of them developed, whatever contact they would conceivably have would be nothing short of entertaining.

[Jonata]

royceclemens wrote...

I disagree.  Jack and Miranda are complete opposites.  So much so that they hate each other instinctively.  Hell, Jack's first words to Miranda, within thirty seconds of meeting her, are "You die first."

The thing is that they are SO opposed that in order for either of them to have any sort of arc whatsoever across the two games they're in, they have to start resembling each others' earliest incarnations.  Hell, it even presents itself at the end of ME2.  The point of Jack's development is to introduce doubt while the point of Miranda's development is to introduce certainty.  In order for these two to get to point Z within Mass Effect 2, they have to get to each others' point A.

I won't completely say that these two are fated to get along at long last for the sake of dramatics (though with the way they set it up, doing so would be easy), but given how the two of them developed, whatever contact they would conceivably have would be nothing short of entertaining.

Again, I think it's pretty subjective as a concept. Using Occam's Razor, what I see through ME2 is Jack fighting to find a place in the Universe and finally taking the opportunity to exorcise her demons, and Miranda dealing with her perfection complex and finding someone to protect (her sister).

Mass Effect 2 had characters constantly clashing amongst them, it seved the purpose to show you that when you put 12 lost souls on the same ship there are going to be problems. Jack vs Miranda, Tali vs Legion and the planned but removed Mordin vs Grunt where all there to show you the tension rising while the Suicide Mission was coming near.

Now this doesn't mean that your observations are pointless, but I think that at face value the only thing that there is between Jack and Miranda is a totally understable intolerance. The rest, as I said, is subjective and it relies on your perception and relation with the characters.

Modifié par Jonata, 03 juillet 2012 - 02:33 .

[royceclemens]

Jonata wrote...

Again, I think it's pretty subjective as a concept. Using Occam's Razor, what I see through ME2 is Jack fighting to find a place in the Universe and finally taking the opportunity to exorcise her demons, and Miranda dealing with her perfection complex and finding someone to protect (her sister).

Mass Effect 2 had characters constantly clashing amongst them, it seved the purpose to show you that when you put 12 lost souls on the same ship there are going to be problems. Jack vs Miranda, Tali vs Legion and the planned but removed Mordin vs Grunt where all there to show you the tension rising while the Suicide Mission was coming near.

Now this doesn't mean that your observations are pointless, but I think that at face value the only thing that there is between Jack and Miranda is a totally understable intolerance. The rest, as I said, is subjective and it relies on your perception and relation with the characters.

I'm glad you brought this up.  One of the bigger mechanics of the game was loyalty, and that there would come a time when you had to choose whose loyalty mattered more to you throughout the game.  I just don't think it's all that unresonable to assume that the inevitable personality clash came first and almost everything else about the characters came later to give the conflict more weight.  Because Jack and Miranda are caucasian female biotics on the Normandy and these are LITERALLY the only things they have in common.  They're so opposite, from their looks on down to their origin stories that I can't help but think at was all done on purpose.  Here, I'll give you a few more...

-Jennifer became Jack because her mom took her to the wrong doctor when she was a baby on Eden Prime.  That's pretty much it.  Bad Luck.  A different doctor on a different day and Jennifer could have grown up to be a stand-up comedian, for all we know.  Miranda, however, by the very nature of her conception, was always going to be Miranda.

-Jack was an experiment that was successful at the time of its termination.  Miranda was an experiment that failed.

-Jack started out alone and gained the acceptance of the Alliance.  Miranda started with the acceptance of Cerberus and wound up alone.

-In Mass Effect 2, Jack's loyalty mission involves revenge in a Cerberus lab that conducted brutal experiments on unwilling subjects.  In Mass Effect 3, her mission involves saving young people that she considers family from an assortment of antagonists hoping to use them for their own ends.

-In Mass Effect 2, Miranda's loyalty mission involves saving a young person in her family from an assortment of antagonists hoping to use her for their own ends.  In Mass Effect 3, her mission involves revenge in a Cerberus lab conducting brutal experiments on unwilling subjects.

And I think you might be doing Miranda a little bit of disservice with your analysis.  I don't think it's as cut-and-dry as dealing with a perfection complex and finding someone to protect.  If anything, it's an inferiority complex that Miranda's dealing with, so much so that Shepard has to assure her in the second convo they have aboard the Normandy that she's her own person and isn't merely the arm of something greater than herself.  And deal with it she does, gaining confidence in herself at the very end by disobeying a direct order from TIM at the Collector base.  The Miranda we saw at the beginning of the game wouldn't have done that.

And again, contrast that with Jack, who needs to be introduced to doubt...

SHEPARD: Do you regret all the things you've done?

JACK: No.

SHEPARD: Shouldn't you?

Aw, hell.  LEAVE ME ALONE!  MAC WANTED ME TO SPECULATE!

[fainmaca]

@royceclemens: I still think you're just reading a little too much into their dynamic. Jack hates Cerberus. Miranda is the first prominent Cerberus figure she meets on the Normandy (and in the line between them on Purgatory, that's conveniently after Miranda has confirmed that she is a part of Cerberus and what's more thinks the relentless pursuit of Jack by the organisation was justified). Jack makes an incendiary comment purely to get a rise out of the Cerberus officer, and Miranda, in a rather uncharacteristic show of weakness, allows Jack's words to get under her skin. Its less of the almost yin-yang relationship you're describing and more of Jack just being the abrasive b*tch she is when she first steps aboard.

[royceclemens]

Isn't Shepard the first Cerberus figure she meets? Jacob could be as well. She threatens to kill neither of them. Hell, Jacob and Jack even have friendly squaddie banter.

[Jonata]

royceclemens wrote...

Jack, who needs to be introduced to doubt...

SHEPARD: Do you regret all the things you've done?

JACK: No.

SHEPARD: Shouldn't you?

Don't get me wrong with this short answer. I read all of your analysis and you have a point and made a very good argument. Fact is, I'm still thinking the entire dynamic should be taken more at a simpler, down-to-earth value. I think you are doing what is called "hermeneutic art", you're finding a deep dichotomy and strong arguments to back it up where that dichotomy wasn't originally intended to be. Which is impressive, but I simply don't agree with you because I like to think that Jack and Miranda are just too very different persons with lots of reasons to hate each other.


Anyway, while I'm still thinking your analysis is good but subjective... using that exchange as a summary of the Jack/Shepard relationship is downright brilliant. Very nice catch.

Modifié par Jonata, 03 juillet 2012 - 06:27 .

[JedTed]

 What's up Jack fans?  I haven't been in this thread much but i had a question.  Has anyone here romanced Ashley in ME1 before hooking up with Jack?
Most of the folks in the Ash thread are loyal to the core but personally i find Jack's character so compelling i can't resist her.  I also kinda see Jack as like Ashley but without all the discipline and morals.
I don't really mind that Jack's not a squadie in ME3(she's got her students to worry about) but i wish she and Ashley had some banter on the Citadel.  I think they would be cold/dismissive to each other at first but then warm up after a while, maybe even share some embarrassing stories about Shepard if you romanced both of them. 

[Jonata]

What? Is this becoming a trend now?