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[l DryIce l]

axl99 wrote...

I think you guys are reading into this way too much.

That's impossible! We're not crazy...y...you're c-crazy. Imeanliekhowcanyougofromloathingtolovingwithoutchangingthecharacterentirelyomgwtfjk.

[idoless24]

axl99 wrote...

I think you guys are reading into this way too much.

Such are forums eh?

[fainmaca]

yorkj86 wrote...

Why'd you exclude the rest of her line?  "Shepard, you got feelings for me? 'Cause I don't need the complication." 

One could consider the actual fact that she brings it up in the first place a signal of interest. Why would she mention feelings otherwise? If she thought Shepard cared for her, but didn't feel the same way, then she wouldn't ask like that. She might just think 'f**k it, let him feel what he wants, i don't care.', or she'd be a lot more agressive in telling him where to go. the fact she brings it up shows that its on her mind, that she's unsure of something, and given the fact she isn't pushing as strongly, you get a sense of the growing attraction.

the frustration she shows in that convo is with herself, not with Shepard. She doesn't like feeling things. She decided a long time ago that that's the express train to heartbreak, so she ruled that she'd lock herself away, and when she finds herself letting that rule slide, she gets angry at herself. That's where 'this should be easy, why aren't you easy?' comes in.

You see it even in the ren conversation. She asks if you're eyeing her up to try and figure out whether you going down there means something. If you say yes and do the deal (pervert) then she can file it away as you were just looking for some fun. but if you turn her down there, that sets her thinking. Then when she brings it up again, its clearly prominent in her mind.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I might not have thought that "She's one of my favorites now" was such a big deal but after reading he said he "utterly loathed" the character I may feel like it's cause for concern. Softening her character slightly might not be a big deal but I don't know if somebody can do a complete 180 on a character without changing her in a major way. It is strange to see some of the Bioware writers hated parts of their work.

Modifié par Jedi Master of Orion, 11 juillet 2011 - 05:10 .

[SlottsMachine]

 I don't think there is any defending paragon Shep's "you're lying" line if you take it at face value. But if you factor in that most likely the writers design the base character and then create the various stages/paths of development for that character, before coming up with dialogue for Shepard to advance the story of that character. It seems to me that the writers look at it with the mindset of, "nobody cares what Shepard is saying, they care about what (insert character) has to say".

I think the best example of this is the aftermath of Jack's ".....so that will **** you up" line, and when Shep replies to her "how does that make sense," with "does it need too?", and cue the shot of Jack looking like she wants to jump out the nearest airlock. Which I always thought they were trying to show Jack being overwhelmed by her feelings or something, but Shepard's 'leading' dialogue didn't seem like it justified the reaction it got.      

[punchbag]

axl99 wrote...

I think you guys are reading into this way too much.

Well when I first read the tweet I thought that too.

But then after reading this I changed my mind:

Epantiras wrote...

spiros9110 wrote...

Vertigo_1 wrote...

twitter.com/#!/patsquinade/status/90258605617586176

"Lots of old friends grow and change in ME3. Jack is one of my favorites now."

The one word that is worrying me - "now"  Why now, why not before?  Bahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh, the way people word somethings, I could just be reading into it too much.

....

Guys I'm worried! I remember him saying in an interview that he DIDN'T LIKE Jack way back in ME2.www.gamebanshee.com/news/95010-bioware-writer-gives-his-take-on-subject-zero.html

"The simpler explanation is that I personally utterly loathe her 
character. She presses a number of buttons I don't like in real-life 
people, and she's written well enough that she comes off like a 
real-life person -- a real-life person I detest."

This means they've changed her!
...

In that link Epantiras gave us, he (Patrick Weekes) continued to say:
"Which is why, for me, she stays on the ship. And... well, not to get spoilery on you, but if this were ME1, I'd be really excited when it came time to leave someone to guard the nuke on Virmire. We're on a suicide mission. Some people might not make it. Sacrifices have to be made. (cough)"

I now think the now means something bad...
She must have changed a lot for someone who loathes her so much to almost make a 180.



On another note, all you stubborn non-conforming Jackolytes: click the link in my sig and join our group. I don't care how much longer you've been on this network, your biotic overlord (Jack) commands you to conform to her. So do it. That is all

Modifié par punchbag, 11 juillet 2011 - 07:50 .

[Slurms McKenzie]

@Punchbag

I share your concerns. I mean she'll have to change a little, but I don't like the thought of someone who previously didn't like Jack handling her character development..............makes me tense, it does...

@Yorkj86

Yup, can see where you're coming from 'tis just a tad bit creepy.........yet again, if Shepard made no advance, then we would be deprived of a lovely courtship. Perhaps, Shepard's lines need changing, some better writing, make his lines less creepy and somehow, if possible transform the man into a suave lothario and something of a dab hand at the seductive art of seduction

Shepard- The Space Lothario......I like this idea

Good Luck and Stay Safe

[Batlass8]

Re: Weekes' tweet (wow, that was surprisingly fun to type!) What if he's the one who's changed, not Jack? *radiates optimism*

For what it's worth, much as I love Jack, I think she did do a lot of 'growing' (whatever that means) in ME2, so I'm not expecting her to be exactly the same as she was when we picked her up on the Purgatory. Now, if she's suddenly all hearts, flowers and tea parties, I'll be shocked (and mad as hell), and I will be vocal in my displeasure. But, you know chances of that seem slim, especially considering the beacon of positivity about Jack that exists on this forum. (Although maybe I'm just insulated). Still, I live in hope, as the priest said to the princess.

[SlottsMachine]

Batlass8 wrote...

Re: Weekes' tweet (wow, that was surprisingly fun to type!) What if he's the one who's changed, not Jack? *radiates optimism*

Or maybe a bit of both.

Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:21 .

[Batlass8]

@Slotts: A compromise could work for me!

[punchbag]

Batlass8 wrote...

Re: Weekes' tweet (wow, that was surprisingly fun to type!) What if he's the one who's changed, not Jack? *radiates optimism*

For what it's worth, much as I love Jack, I think she did do a lot of 'growing' (whatever that means) in ME2, so I'm not expecting her to be exactly the same as she was when we picked her up on the Purgatory. Now, if she's suddenly all hearts, flowers and tea parties, I'll be shocked (and mad as hell), and I will be vocal in my displeasure. But, you know chances of that seem slim, especially considering the beacon of positivity about Jack that exists on this forum. (Although maybe I'm just insulated). Still, I live in hope, as the priest said to the princess.

Let's hope so.

[VoidCabbage]

Am I getting this right?

they put someone who "loathed" Jack in ME2 in charge of her development for ME3?

that seems like such a **** you to the established Jack fans, just in order to grab some new ones. I'd really like a bioware person, preferably Weekes to give some more context to this statement.

[demonic_cookie]

Someone who 'loathes' the character might be too much inclined to 'put her right', and that's indeed a disturbing and disheartening thought... On the other hand, as a writer I can say that when I try to write a character I don't like I usually end up relating at least a little and changing my opinion... Then again, I never tried to write Alistair from DAO, the only character I truly dislike, and I never really 'loathed' a character... So I might be not the best example...

[Sepewrath]

I am a big fan of Jack and I would hate to see her get changed just to appease the whiners who hates anyone who doesn't worship the ground beneath the ground, their Shepard walked on.

[axl99]

Let's be realistic. I think it's much to do with polish and general approach.

I was talking to Patrick over twitter the other night, which prompted his earlier tweets about Jack, and I never got the impression he was in actually charge of writing Jack. For all I know he wrote a couple lines before moving onto another character.

Jack was a person so trapped and bitter about her past it may as well be offputting to him as a writer. There wasn't much opportunity for Jack to show off more of her dark humour and that unexpectedly grounded sense of right and wrong. Hell, plenty of Jack fans in the other thread have acknowledged that she, among all the other characters, had missed opportunities in further developing their character. The writers had really REALLY good material to work with, and the general approach they took just needed more polish. The problem was there were more than 12 characters to work with.

I think it's important to note Patrick explicitly acknowledges Jack as a solid character because she can bring out both positive and negative reactions out of people the way she does. If she was a person in real life, then of course most people would simply tip toe around her and stay the hell away.

The fact he says he likes her now doesn't mean she's gone through a complete overhaul. It could mean he likes how much further the writing team took to develop her character, how she interacts with people - it could mean a lot of things.

Jack can still hate the living **** out of Cerberus and still find something else to do with her life while giving the finger to people she doesn't acknowledge as deserving of her respect. I mean if I was writing Jack I wouldn't want to change some of the "offputting" aspects of her character, but I wouldn't want her stuck in her little hellhole forever either.

Modifié par axl99, 12 juillet 2011 - 12:40 .

[punchbag]

@ axl
Thanks for the input. I think I feel more optimistic now.

[PiercedMonk]

I'm going to view Mr. Weekes comments with a bit of optimisim and hope that his change in attitude has less to do with a severe alteration of Jack's character, but rather an expansion thereof.

A good example, to my mind, would be the 'Song of Ice and Fire' novels upon which the recent HBO 'Game of Thrones' serries was based. Reading the first book, I absolutely loathed the character Jamie Lannister, who was presented as arrogant, immoral scum. He continues to be arrogant, immoral scum as the serries continues, and we he a real person I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to hang out with him, but as his personality and motivations are expanded upon, he becomes quite entertaining, and is now one of my favourite characters.

Granted, that might not be the case here, and maybe I'll be dissapointed, but I'd like to think that the writers at BioWare are dedicated enough to their craft that consistancy of characterization is important to them.

Modifié par PiercedMonk, 12 juillet 2011 - 01:26 .

[Malanek]

What Patrick wrote a long time ago...

"The simpler explanation is that I personally utterly loathe her character. She presses a number of buttons I don't like in real-life people, and she's written well enough that she comes off like a real-life person -- a real-life person I detest. Other people respond to her extremely favorably."

...is not a bad thing. I felt that way (maybe not quite loathe) about Ashley but in ME1 she was without a doubt the best written character. The others I was simply ambivalent towards. IMO it is much better to have characters envoke strong reactions, even if negative, than nothing at all.

And I'm a lot more forgiving towards Jacks bad traits than to Ashley's. Being abused and experimented on while a little girl is so much worse than simply suffering the stigma of having an unsuccessful relative. I hope Jack hasn't changed too much, she was already a lot "better" as a person by the end of ME2, not IMO because she blew up the cerberus facility, but rather that she was simply part of something positive. Anyway starting to sound like Jack will have a significant role in ME3 which is great, she would be one of my favourites from both games.

[punchbag]

posted this in the old thread, but I'm putting it here to just in case (important info you know):

(this is old news, but new to me because I don't tweet)
Here is a gift to all the FemShep players who want Jack in their pants: (this is inconclusive btw)
http://twitter.com/#...833443067969536
I didn't spoil the surprise, so you're welcome

Modifié par punchbag, 12 juillet 2011 - 07:12 .

[demonic_cookie]

ah, punchbag, if only we were sure that Jack would be able to get into femshep's pants... I really hope she will be, but it's too early to tell.

[punchbag]

Yes, too early to tell, but definitely A LOT more likely as Bioware had previously intended to keep Mass Effect strictly straight.

I don't care much either way since I prefer male Shep with Jack, but I don't mind them giving the option to the femsheps.

They'd better be able to write damn well to explain the ME2 turndown or just keep her straight though.

Modifié par punchbag, 12 juillet 2011 - 07:14 .

[KyreneZA]

yorkj86 wrote...

Why'd you exclude the rest of her line?  "Shepard, you got feelings for me? 'Cause I don't need the complication." 

If it is creepy, and wrong, it's best to approach Jack from a platonic standpoint.

For one, because a male will only hear the question, or if he heard the disclaimer, it would take a back seat in his mind. Men want to fix things, and up to that point Shepard has been biting back his "let's fix Jack" impulses in favour of "let's assure her it's okay" actions (like a truly metrosexual man). Her asking that specific question, gives the green light to once only say something to (help) 'fix' (or irrevocably break) Jack. He has no damn right, it's creepy too, BUT he also has no choice. And let's face it, he's not the suavest in the galaxy.

Secondly, it's not wrong. That's your opinion. What it is, is a case of "could be wrong, but could be right too." It's a judgement call.

As an aside, are you also calling out people who don't care for Jack at all, with the last part of your post?

Well if you can't at least have empathy for Jack, you're shallower than Miranda. If you (as player) went through her loyalty quest and still don't care for her, I feel sorry for you.

Which brings me to Weekes: nobody that wanted to Virmire Jack, left her on the ship the whole time and loathed her should be tasked with writing a single line for her in ME3. Not even a sarcastic dialogue line, UNLESS that person made the 180, not the character they are writing.

Modifié par Kyrene, 12 juillet 2011 - 09:03 .

[demonic_cookie]

it's not wrong. That's your opinion. What it is, is a case of "could be wrong, but could be right too." It's a judgement call.

But it actually is wrong. Jack is very vulnerable, especially after her LM. Shepard is quite possibly the only person she trusts. She is confused about him, and she is confused about how she feels, and she is very much afraid of what getting close to him might mean because she just found this person who for some reason helped her and didn't screw her over, and it might all her blown to hell if 'feelings' get into it. Don't forget that all her romantic experience consisted of people either using her or dying on her. It is wrong to go around pushing someone who is as fragile as Jack is at that particular moment.

And Shepard has a choice. A true Paragon option would be for him to say "Yes, I have feelings for you, and I think you have feelings for me." Then she would deny it, and he could go for another true Paragon option and tell her he would wait until she figures things out before she came out and asked for it herself (a feat I'm sure was very difficult to do for her). Because that's what a true Paragon would do, the upper right option. The "I don't believe you" is more of a renegade response, and it doesn't have anything to do with being actually concerned for Jack's feelings, only with reasserting Shepard's macho superiority.

Modifié par demonic_cookie, 12 juillet 2011 - 03:40 .

[Jedi Master of Orion]

I'm not sure the implication of his recent tweet was that he was writing Jack, only that he liked the direction they took her with. That may or may not turn out well for her but it still sort of would be something that raises an eyebrow among many Jack fans.

I certainly hope he didn't write her. Because that makes his tweet come across as kind of self indulgent: "Man Jack was awful before but I have SO fixed her!" I never really looked at it that way before, because presumably if he hated her he wasn't writing her in the first game either.

I have to say though, in either case it does raise at least a little cause for concern. if he wrote Tali in the second game I have to say I'd be truly horrified if Jack turned into the nerdy awkward girl that appears in many Bioware games. And that's nothing against Tali, I'd be similarly freaked out by Tali spouting all of Jack's obscenities at Shepard.

[frostajulie]

I wish they'd retcon a romance for femshep with Jack and make her an option for ME3 All my femsheps love her best of all.