7744 réponses à ce sujet

[axl99]

The things Jack is guilty of Shepard can be guilty of as well, Spectre-status or no. The same can be said for most of the squaddies as well. No one on the Normandy is truly innocent, even if their motives are "justified".

One doesn't have to be sympathetic of a character to be empathetic of one.

Jack is a tragic character, and I'm perfectly fine with that.

[Dasher1010]

Some Russian site leaked the whole squad. it looks like Jack is now just a temp  :crying::crying::crying::crying::o:o:o:o:o:o:o

[Ace Attorney]

Dasher1010 wrote...

Some Russian site leaked the whole squad. it looks like Jack is now just a temp  :crying::crying::crying::crying::o:o:o:o:o:o

Link?

[Dasher1010]

T3hAnubis wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...

Some Russian site leaked the whole squad. it looks like Jack is now just a temp  :crying::crying::crying::crying::o:o:o:o:o:o

Link?

source http://www.3dnews.ru/games/614349

Modifié par Dasher1010, 02 août 2011 - 05:42 .

[MassFrost]

Dasher1010 wrote...

T3hAnubis wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...

Some Russian site leaked the whole squad. it looks like Jack is now just a temp  :crying::crying::crying::crying::o:o:o:o:o:o

Link?

Some Russian site leaked the whole squad. it looks like Jack is now just a temp

It might be helpful if you provided a source to this leaked squad.

[Ace Attorney]

I just saw it (it's a topic on this board called "Rejoice Legion fans..."). The article never stated the status of anyone. People are reading too much into nothing.

[Lu the Prodigy]

Yea, I just read it, and it seems to me to be the exact news we got about squadmates like 3 months ago Confirming some people as squadmates and saying that nothing has yet been revealed about others. But to me, it's just a jumbled and confusing translation of old news

[DudesterMcGillicutty]

Man you scared the hell out of me for a minute there.

Luckily, the article doesn't say anything about anything really. Just a lot of old news about old crew members returning and the team being smaller than before.

[KingNothing125]

The issue I'm having with your argument, ClonedZero, is that you appear to accept no middle ground between "innocent kitten"/"robin hood" and murderous sociopath.

I said the other day that I agree Jack fits the clinical definition of psycho/sociopathy, but that does not automatically put her in the category of crazy people who kill indiscriminately and just for fun. I can accept that Jack has pirated, killed, vandalized (I'm surprised she would even mention that!), etc. while deep down I think she wishes she didn't have to do that crap anymore. That gives her character depth and sympathy that she wouldn't have if she was a "OMG MURDER PILLAGE RAPE LOL AWESOME" evil space viking.

She had a ridiculously awful childhood, then ran with the wrong people her whole life. But lots of people do that, and they're not all Ted Kaczynskis.

Jack's a messed up chick, to be sure, but she's not a sick and twisted serial killer.

[PiercedMonk]

Clonedzero wrote...

and her killing innocents is heavily implied numerous times.

It's more than implied. She outright states that she killed other children that were part of her program as she was escaping. She also claims that they were attacking and trying to stop her escape, so that's a bit more fuzzy. After that point though, she brags about a lot of her crimes, though the only time she talks about stright up murdering people, are those that seem like they may have had it coming.

I will say that I don't believe her to be the sort of person who would willfully murder someone without provication. Granted, it likely wouldn't take much provication, but there's nothing in her character to suggest she'd go to a crowded shopping district and just start gunning people down, or something similar.

If she is repsonsible for the deaths of innocents, I'd assume that they were collateral damage as part of some other activity. Which is, of course, horrible even if it wasn't intentional.

Clonedzero wrote...

she goes into detail multiple times on how she takes pleasure in killing people.

I remember that happening once. During her loyalty mission she mentions being rewarded with drugs when she would initatiate violence against  against the other kids when pitted against them. She's been conditioned to take pleasure in violence.

Clonedzero wrote...

i mean im not stating opinions here, thats her character, if you do a paragon romance of her she breaks down and shows you her emotional side, but she's still that person.

She's still the person that commited horrible acts, yes, but how likely is she to continue to behave in such an indiscriminatly violent manner going forward?

I'm not saying she won't still be an angry, aggressive, violent person, but I'd like to think that she'll be more capable of putting those things aside when they're not needed.

Even if you don't romance her but do the loyalty mission, it's a bit of an eye opener for her. She realises her world isn't quite what she thought it was. I'd like to think that going forward Jack would be able to come to realise that not everyone in the galaxy is out to abuse and mistreat and use her, that she doesn't always need to fight, and that she can be happy.

Clonedzero wrote...

her doing all those horrible things is part of her character, its supposed to be a way for you to see how damaged she really is. saying she's never killed an innocent person is ridiculous. her entire character is built around being deeply flawed, why are you all in such denial that she's killed innocents? its a big part of her character progression and development, you know, her realizing that she's done wrong things and all that?

I don't think that any of her fans are indenial that she's done some terrible things. The question is more, how responsible is she for those acts?

There are places in the world where child soliders are fed cocaine and ordered to rape and murder innocent people. No one one would deny that these are horrible acts, but are they commited by monsters who should be shunned, or abuse victims who deserve our help?

I can only speak for myself, but I assume that most fans of Jack aren't in denial about her past, but are empathetic to the damage that's been inflicted upon her.

[Ace Attorney]

KingNothing125 wrote...

The issue I'm having with your argument, ClonedZero, is that you appear to accept no middle ground between "innocent kitten"/"robin hood" and murderous sociopath.

I said the other day that I agree Jack fits the clinical definition of psycho/sociopathy, but that does not automatically put her in the category of crazy people who kill indiscriminately and just for fun. I can accept that Jack has pirated, killed, vandalized (I'm surprised she would even mention that!), etc. while deep down I think she wishes she didn't have to do that crap anymore. That gives her character depth and sympathy that she wouldn't have if she was a "OMG MURDER PILLAGE RAPE LOL AWESOME" evil space viking.

She had a ridiculously awful childhood, then ran with the wrong people her whole life. But lots of people do that, and they're not all Ted Kaczynskis.

Jack's a messed up chick, to be sure, but she's not a sick and twisted serial killer.

This is what I've been saying. Jack is a psycopath but she isn't like DC's Joker, but more like Rorschach from Watchmen...kinda (in that both have a ****ed up past that shaped their current behavior and while both kill, they don't without reason or provocation).

Modifié par T3hAnubis, 02 août 2011 - 09:10 .

[Ninjapino]

I'll agree that she's a sociopath or at least has sociopathic tendencies, but there is a big difference between that and psychotic. Yes, she killed a lot of kid when she was a kid, herself, escaping a facility torturing her and she thought they were attacking her. She mentions how she does get a pleasurable feeling from killing, but it's not a point of pride for her. When she says it, she's explaining how she was conditioned that way. It actually upsets her a bit that she enjoys it. The more you get to know her and break down her emotional wall, the more you'll discover that her bragging about her crimes is a defense mechanism so you think she's a badass killer and stay the hell away from her. Everything she's done up to this point has been so she can survive without being a victim. (Which, sadly, kind of backfires on her)

A psychopath kills purely for enjoyment with no concern as to why. A sociopath has anti-social behavior and often times uses violence as a why to keep people back. Jack is more the latter, but none of the former. If this has been an argument over semantics between the two terms, than that's all that is. Just realize that two are different.

[CommanderShepard101]

Jack: Smash or pass? ****ing Pass.

[Ace Attorney]

Ninjapino wrote...

I'll agree that she's a sociopath or at least has sociopathic tendencies, but there is a big difference between that and psychotic. Yes, she killed a lot of kid when she was a kid, herself, escaping a facility torturing her and she thought they were attacking her. She mentions how she does get a pleasurable feeling from killing, but it's not a point of pride for her. When she says it, she's explaining how she was conditioned that way. It actually upsets her a bit that she enjoys it. The more you get to know her and break down her emotional wall, the more you'll discover that her bragging about her crimes is a defense mechanism so you think she's a badass killer and stay the hell away from her. Everything she's done up to this point has been so she can survive without being a victim. (Which, sadly, kind of backfires on her)

A psychopath kills purely for enjoyment with no concern as to why. A sociopath has anti-social behavior and often times uses violence as a why to keep people back. Jack is more the latter, but none of the former. If this has been an argument over semantics between the two terms, than that's all that is. Just realize that two are different.

Yes, there has been a confusion on terms, yourself included.


"Psychopathy (from the Greek words psykhe (mind, mental) and pathos (suffering, feeling)) is a term which, until the 1980s, formally referred to a personality disorder characterized by the inability to form human attachment and an abnormal lack of empathy, masked by an ability to appear outwardly normal. The publication of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders third edition (DSM-III) changed the name of this mental disorder to antisocial personality disorder, and also broadened the diagnostic criteria considerably by shifting from clinical inferences to behavioral diagnostic criteria. However, the DSM-V working party is recommending a revision of antisocial personality disorder to include "Antisocial/Psychopathic Type", with the diagnostic criteria having a greater emphasis on character than on behavior. The ICD-10 diagnostic criteria of the World Health Organization also lacks psychopathy as a personality disorder. The 1992 manual included dissocial (antisocial) personality disorder, which encompasses amoral, antisocial, asocial, psychopathic, and sociopathic personalities.

Despite being currently unused in diagnostic manuals, psychopathy and related terms such as psychopath are still widely used by mental health professionals and laymen alike. In particular, NATO has funded a series of Advanced Study Institutes on psychopathy, both before and after the publication of DSM-III. Researcher Robert Hare has been a particular champion of the term; his Hare Psychopathy Checklist is the standard tool for differentiating between those with antisocial personality disorder and the subset who are psychopaths. According to this scale the prevalence of antisocial personality disorder is two to three times that of psychopathy.
According to a chapter about treatment in Christopher J. Patrick's Handbook of Psychopathy, there is little evidence of a cure or any effective treatment for psychopathy; no medications can instill empathy, and psychopaths who undergo traditional talk therapy might become more adept at manipulating others and more likely to commit crime. [...]
Despite the similarity of the names, psychopaths are rarely psychotic."

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Psychopathy


"Sociopathy is a loosely-defined term that may be used to refer to:
* Antisocial personality disorder
* Psychopathy
* Dissocial personality disorder

A sociopath is somebody who exhibits sociopathy, who behaves in a way that suggests a lack of conscience. Unlike the average human, a sociopath does not feel any sense of guilt or remorse when committing morally wrong actions or actions that their society deems unacceptable. Because of this utter lack of fear for the sanctions of society, sociopaths take advantage of the social system and use manipulation and amoral behaviors to obtain their goals. The types of behaviors they exhibit are those that would make someone with a conscience uncomfortable."
http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Sociopathy

Neither involve killing.

Modifié par T3hAnubis, 03 août 2011 - 01:34 .

[Ace Attorney]

KingNothing125 wrote...

So I'm not into the whole My Little Pony fad thing, but I was browsing for Subject Zero stuff on Deviantart and found this, and I thought it was funny. Someone is bound to get a kick out of it...

I need to bring this back, it's hilarious.

[Ninjapino]

T3hAnubis wrote...


"Psychopathy (from the Greek words psykhe (mind, mental) and pathos (suffering, feeling)) is a term which, until the 1980s, formally referred to a personality disorder characterized by the inability to form human attachment and an abnormal lack of empathy, masked by an ability to appear outwardly normal.

"Sociopathy is a loosely-defined term that may be used to refer to:
* Antisocial personality disorder
* Psychopathy
* Dissocial personality disorder

A sociopath is somebody who exhibits sociopathy, who behaves in a way that suggests a lack of conscience. Unlike the average human, a sociopath does not feel any sense of guilt or remorse when committing morally wrong actions or actions that their society deems unacceptable. Because of this utter lack of fear for the sanctions of society, sociopaths take advantage of the social system and use manipulation and amoral behaviors to obtain their goals. The types of behaviors they exhibit are those that would make someone with a conscience uncomfortable."

Alright, so she's neither a psychopath OR  a sociopath.  I'll admit that I was wrong that she is either of those  considering that she A) does the exact opposite of a psychopath by outwardly portraying abnormallity in order to mask her empathy and definitley has guilt about some of the people she's killed and remorse that she's felt that's all she's been trained to do and is made for.  See?  I can admit when I'm wrong about something. 

[Ace Attorney]

Ninjapino wrote...

T3hAnubis wrote...


"Psychopathy (from the Greek words psykhe (mind, mental) and pathos (suffering, feeling)) is a term which, until the 1980s, formally referred to a personality disorder characterized by the inability to form human attachment and an abnormal lack of empathy, masked by an ability to appear outwardly normal.

"Sociopathy is a loosely-defined term that may be used to refer to:
* Antisocial personality disorder
* Psychopathy
* Dissocial personality disorder

A sociopath is somebody who exhibits sociopathy, who behaves in a way that suggests a lack of conscience. Unlike the average human, a sociopath does not feel any sense of guilt or remorse when committing morally wrong actions or actions that their society deems unacceptable. Because of this utter lack of fear for the sanctions of society, sociopaths take advantage of the social system and use manipulation and amoral behaviors to obtain their goals. The types of behaviors they exhibit are those that would make someone with a conscience uncomfortable."

Alright, so she's neither a psychopath OR  a sociopath.  I'll admit that I was wrong that she is either of those  considering that she A) does the exact opposite of a psychopath by outwardly portraying abnormallity in order to mask her empathy and definitley has guilt about some of the people she's killed and remorse that she's felt that's all she's been trained to do and is made for.  See?  I can admit when I'm wrong about something. 

Read the Psychopathy entry further on.
While the pre-80s term may not fit, the current one (Antisocial/Dissocial Personality Disorder) is very VERY broad, basically encompassing anyone with psychological social problems, but still many people (like laymen) refer to these people as psychopaths. I think she has a Antisocial/Dissocial Personality Disorder.

[l DryIce l]

I still don't think it matters how we decide to label her.

[SlottsMachine]

All this psychopathy talk has got me concerned, after running through the definitions checklist with my neighbors foster son in mind there were a number of points being checked off. So if you don't hear from me for a while assume the worst.

Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 03 août 2011 - 03:41 .

[Ace Attorney]

l DryIce l wrote...

I still don't think it matters how we decide to label her.

True enough. Jack is a lady with problems, whatever you want to call them. And it is those problems that make some like her and others not like her.
I think we can all agree to that right? /discussion

[Goat_Shepard]

Idk, I'm not feeling these labels, they're a little loose. I mean Shepard fits half these descriptions. I'm not a psychologist, but many of these tendencies seem like genetic characteristics, while others seem behavioral. I'm interested in the difference with regards to Jack, because things like the "inability to form human attachment masked by the ability to appear outwardly normal" sounds genetic and totally not Jack. She's not unable to, she purposely avoids human attachment by not appearing normal and she does empathize, she's not without a conscience, and she doesn't manipulate. I definitely see the antisocial/dissocial tendencies, but I wonder if even those are defense mechanisms that are separate issues from sociopathy/psychopathy altogether, because I also consider this highly subjective.

I do think she chooses to not feel guilt over her life of crime because of the terrible card life dealt her, but that's another discussion that starts with a question like "do you think it's justifiable for a falsely accused to do the actual crime out of spite?"

@kingnothing, pierced monk

Well said.

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 03 août 2011 - 03:48 .

[Clonedzero]

KingNothing125 wrote...

The issue I'm having with your argument, ClonedZero, is that you appear to accept no middle ground between "innocent kitten"/"robin hood" and murderous sociopath.

I said the other day that I agree Jack fits the clinical definition of psycho/sociopathy, but that does not automatically put her in the category of crazy people who kill indiscriminately and just for fun. I can accept that Jack has pirated, killed, vandalized (I'm surprised she would even mention that!), etc. while deep down I think she wishes she didn't have to do that crap anymore. That gives her character depth and sympathy that she wouldn't have if she was a "OMG MURDER PILLAGE RAPE LOL AWESOME" evil space viking.

She had a ridiculously awful childhood, then ran with the wrong people her whole life. But lots of people do that, and they're not all Ted Kaczynskis.

Jack's a messed up chick, to be sure, but she's not a sick and twisted serial killer.

what do you mean no middle ground?

i was fully admitting jacks desire to get better, and how shepard is like her key to help her change who she is. my only point is that i acknowledge her past and her attitude about it and that makes it hard for me to sympathize with her fully.

here, lemme put it like this. if there was a modern day real life murdering outlaw who had a really messed up childhood that led them down that path. sure you might feel sorry that they had a rough life and all, but you'd still see them as the murdering outlaw, r ight? thats my issue with jack is all.

also, its kinda annoying that you can't really help her that much with her issues if you're not paragon romancing her. if i romance anyone else she pretty much hates my guts, so yeah that gets on my nerves too.

i do like her character arch of healing a damaged psyche though.

[GodWood]

NOT A SOCIOPATH NOR A PSYCHOPATH

EDIT: Just to clarify. If Jack was a sociopath or a psychopath I would have no issue with it. Alot of my favourite characters are textbook psychopaths (Dexter, Light Yagami and Iago [guy from Othello] come to mind).
So my annoyance of people labelling her a psychopath/sociopath does not stem from some hatred of them.
My issue is that people have a tendency of throwing the label around without actually understanding the meaning.

Yes Jack is a murderer and Yes Jack has mental issues however based on the clinical definitions of a psychopath Jack is anything but. 

Modifié par GodWood, 03 août 2011 - 07:12 .

[DudesterMcGillicutty]

DudesterMcGillicutty wrote...

I think that instead of a psychopath, Jack is instead a person who simply puts up a tough front. Lots of people do it. I mean, if she did have the disease of being a psychopath, it wouldn't be cured in a couple talks. That's the key difference. A tough guy puts up a front to protect himself. A psycopath doesn't have anything to protect. It's a neurological disorder that creates a person who does not feel anything for other people. A relationship, in any sense of the word, with a psychopath is impossible. If there's a relationship, the person is not a psychopath.

"Psychopathy" sometimes get used as if it's a personality trait. It's not. It's a disease. And the person with the disease cannot form relationships. A lot of people say that it can't even be cured.

So, either you say your Shepard has a relationship with Jack (ipso facto she is not a psychopath), or there is no relationship. Black and white. Cut and dry.

Or, we could say that perhaps she's a more complex character that isn't fully understandable (which, with any good character is hopefully the case). In this case, while she may still have problems, she isn't a psychopath. She is, instead, a character that people maybe not understand and is thus labeled as a "psychopath".

[KyreneZA]

*demands more fluffy Jack stuff*

Yeah, I realise that's probably an oxymoron. Just tired of pages and pages of us couch analyzing what we each think Jack's label ought to be.

Enough!