7744 réponses à ce sujet

[Ace Attorney]

T3hAnubis wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

I still don't think it matters how we decide to label her.

True enough. Jack is a lady with problems, whatever you want to call them. And it is those problems that make some like her and others not like her.
I think we can all agree to that right? /discussion

[PiercedMonk]

Clonedzero wrote...

my only point is that i acknowledge her past and her attitude about it and that makes it hard for me to sympathize with her fully.

But you don't think her attitude is part of her mental armour?

It's obvious she concerned about letting anyone get to close lest she get hurt -- regardless of whether or not the other person actually intends to hurt her -- and it seems that her rather abbrasive personalty exists to facilitate that.

I don't necessarily believe that she's wracked with guilt over her past actions, but at the same time, I do believe that a lot of her boasts are just bravado.

Clonedzero wrote...

here, lemme put it like this. if there was a modern day real life murdering outlaw who had a really messed up childhood that led them down that path. sure you might feel sorry that they had a rough life and all, but you'd still see them as the murdering outlaw, r ight? thats my issue with jack is all.

Absolutely.

Though I'd also see them as a person. And if I thought they could be helped, I'd want for that help to be available to them.

I don't know if this is a common outlook amoungst Jack fans, but it seems to me that as far back as she can remember, she's never really been presented with even the idea that life wasn't just one miserable trial after another. Granted, I don't think she ever made much effort to discover otherwise on her own, but it's hard to blame her for that when she'd been conditioned to be a weapon and a tool from such an early age.

Again, I don't expect her to have a complete 180° and become the human embodiment of sweetness and light, but I think, given her character arch, when she's made aware of the fact that most people are actually pretty decent -- starting with Shepard should the player choose to take that route -- it will be a bit of an eye opener for her.

Clonedzero wrote...

also, its kinda annoying that you can't really help her that much with her issues if you're not paragon romancing her. if i romance anyone else she pretty much hates my guts, so yeah that gets on my nerves too.

Both my playthroughs of 'ME:2', I romanced Jack, so I can't really comment on that specifically, but it would have been nice to have a bit more dialogue with all the characters, romance or not. Both Tali and Miranda shut down pretty quickly after you tell them you're not interested. To say nothing of Garrus and his calibrations.

However, I will say that at least the option of helping Jack with her damage exists. Some of the other characters strike me as being a bit closer to sociopathic, yet Shepard seems perfectly content not to even broach the subject.

Samara dogmatically follows an ancient code she believes covers every possible circumstance she might encounter, and is willing to kill legitimate law enforcement agents because that code has a bit about not allowing herself to be detained.

Thane's entire world view is one that allows him to completely abidicate responsibility for his actions.

Both of them are far greater cause for concern -- in my mind -- than Jack.

[Clonedzero]

thane follows a different religious and philosophical beliefs than you, that doesnt make him crazy.

samara follows a code, and upholds the law to an extreme degree, doesnt make her crazy either.

jack is violent, aggressive and antisocial, that does make her crazy.

crazy's not necessarily a bad thing, but trying to say thane is more unstable than jack is laughable.

[punchbag]

Clonedzero wrote...
...
thane follows a different religious and philosophical beliefs than you, that doesnt make him crazy.
...

No, it doesn't. But he's knowingly killed innocents. How can Jack be crazy for killing innocents if Thane isn't? The act of killing an innocent life isn't crazy (at least not in and of itself), it's just bad. If killing innocents was crazy, all muderers wouldn't go to prison, they'd go to mental institutions. Jack is arguably more selective about who she kills, while Thane used to kill anyone he was hired to kill.

Clonedzero wrote...
...
jack is violent, aggressive and antisocial, that does make her crazy.
...

There's nothing crazy about being violent, aggressive, or antisocial unless you are unable to control your actions. "Anticocial" is a loose term and isn't synonymous with having antisocial personality disorder (which we don't know she has). There are circumstances where those things are prefectly logical. A renegade Shepard can be called all three of those things; is renegade Shepard crazy?

If someone makes a conscious choice to be those things, are they crazy or are they just choosing to be "bad"? Jack seems to be in the middle in this regard. I view her as an addict more than a crazy person. She's addicted to killing but she's still mostly in control of her actions, and she still has a reasonable hold on reality.

She was conditioned to enjoy killing by being heavily dosed with drugs. She was still an innocent child when they began forcing her to kill other innocent chldren. It was kill or be killed. She was arguably still innocent while in Pragia if we decide to call those other children innocent. They were asked to do the same as her, they just lost. And I'm sure she was put in situations to keep killing other innocents in an effort to desensitize her and make her "past feeling". I'd say it worked to some degree. But could we not say the scientists at Pragia were just as psychotic as Jack became, if not more?

We know from her LM that she didn't just want revenge (though the LM began that way), she wanted that kind of abuse to never happen to anyone else. She still cared. It wasn't just about her, it was also about other people. Aresh wanted to start it back up, and she wouldn't allow it. Aren't sociopaths usually (or always?) incapable of that kind of emotion?

I won't call her innocent, because I'm sure a lot of what she did after Pragia probably wasn't justified, but I don't think she's guilty for what she did in Pragia, or at least not most of it. The heavy implications of Jack killing innocents are still only implications; implications don't prove anything, which means the writers can still make it play out differently. I'll give her character the benefit of the doubt until we know otherwise. I don't think she's an innocent and completely sane kitten, but I also don't think she's completely psychotic. She certainly has issues to work out, and mental problems, but the corrupt Cerberus cell at Pragia is more responsible for what she became than she is. Going forward, I think those scientists will always be partially responsible for her actions, unless she is somehow completely cured. Whatever her mental disorder is, they gave it to her. Does she not deserve sympathy for that? She didn't choose to be an addict, they made her into one (unless you want to say her choice was be an addict or die; in which case she still deserves sympathy). I'd say she's a little crazy in that she has some disorders that resulted from her traumatic experiences (maybe some form of PTSD), but I don't think that makes her outright psychotic. However, if you want to look at it that way, go ahead, everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Modifié par punchbag, 03 août 2011 - 04:47 .

[Clonedzero]

thane killed because it was his job. jack killed for fun.
big difference lol.

but i guess its useless to have a different opinion on a character and try to discuss it in their character thread without people writing a novel about how im "completely wrong".

now i remember why i avoided character threads, if you disagree with anything you get everyone swooping down and ganging up on you. heaven forbid i think the character with several obvious mental disorders and issues is "crazy", my bad.

[l DryIce l]

Clonedzero wrote...

thane killed because it was his job. jack killed for fun.
big difference lol.

but i guess its useless to have a different opinion on a character and try to discuss it in their character thread without people writing a novel about how im "completely wrong".

now i remember why i avoided character threads, if you disagree with anything you get everyone swooping down and ganging up on you. heaven forbid i think the character with several obvious mental disorders and issues is "crazy", my bad.

If you make a statement about anything, you sure as hell better be ready to defend it. Otherwise, don't make the statement. You're in a thread dedicated to the character you accuse of being "crazy". Are you really going to tell me you didn't see this coming?

It seems like you have a very different definition of crazy than the other people in this thread. To me, a crazy person wouldn't be able to control his or her actions/thoughts. Thane fits this definition to an extent, but even he has periods where he "awakens" or regains control...something like that. 

Jack, on the other hand, has always been in control. She may be really messed up, misguided, and bloodthirsty, but she's not crazy. 

[Clonedzero]

l DryIce l wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

thane killed because it was his job. jack killed for fun.
big difference lol.

but i guess its useless to have a different opinion on a character and try to discuss it in their character thread without people writing a novel about how im "completely wrong".

now i remember why i avoided character threads, if you disagree with anything you get everyone swooping down and ganging up on you. heaven forbid i think the character with several obvious mental disorders and issues is "crazy", my bad.

If you make a statement about anything, you sure as hell better be ready to defend it. Otherwise, don't make the statement. You're in a thread dedicated to the character you accuse of being "crazy". Are you really going to tell me you didn't see this coming?

It seems like you have a very different definition of crazy than the other people in this thread. To me, a crazy person wouldn't be able to control his or her actions/thoughts. Thane fits this definition to an extent, but even he has periods where he "awakens" or regains control...something like that. 

Jack, on the other hand, has always been in control. She may be really messed up, misguided, and bloodthirsty, but she's not crazy. 

if i make a statement about anything i sure as hell better be ready to defend it? what? seriously?

this isn't a political debate, its a forum for a damn video game. calm down bucko.

seriously you people are just as bad as the creepy talimancers......

[kumquats]

If creepy Talimancers mean, having a discussion in a civilized manner, without repeatabley insulting everyone posting on this thread.
Then yeah, I'm creepy.
And I will personally thank the Talimancers for being that awesome.

Modifié par kumquats, 03 août 2011 - 08:25 .

[SlottsMachine]

 

[Clonedzero]

kumquats wrote...

If creepy Talimancers mean, having a discussion in a civilized manner, without repeatabley insulting everyone posting on this thread.
Then yeah, I'm creepy.
And I will personally thank the Talimancers for being that awesome.

i apologize if i dont take kindly for being berated for 2-3 pages by everyone int he thread for having a different opinion on the character, it gets a bit tiresome when i just popped in to share my opinion. hell i was even saying how i apperciated her character and wanted to like her but had a hard time sympathizing with her.\\

but nope, i get berated and leactured. most unwelcoming community of fans around i'd say.

i was sorta expecting posts sharing your points of view compared to mine so i could see how others thought about all that, but instead i got a million posts saying "YOUR OPINION IS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!"

[Ghost Warrior]

Clonedzero wrote...

kumquats wrote...

If creepy Talimancers mean, having a discussion in a civilized manner, without repeatabley insulting everyone posting on this thread.
Then yeah, I'm creepy.
And I will personally thank the Talimancers for being that awesome.

i apologize if i dont take kindly for being berated for 2-3 pages by everyone int he thread for having a different opinion on the character, it gets a bit tiresome when i just popped in to share my opinion. hell i was even saying how i apperciated her character and wanted to like her but had a hard time sympathizing with her.

but nope, i get berated and leactured. most unwelcoming community of fans around i'd say.

i was sorta expecting posts sharing your points of view compared to mine so i could see how others thought about all that, but instead i got a million posts saying "YOUR OPINION IS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!"

What did you expect? These are fans of immature and bloodthirsty psycho.

[l DryIce l]

Clonedzero wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

thane killed because it was his job. jack killed for fun.
big difference lol.

but i guess its useless to have a different opinion on a character and try to discuss it in their character thread without people writing a novel about how im "completely wrong".

now i remember why i avoided character threads, if you disagree with anything you get everyone swooping down and ganging up on you. heaven forbid i think the character with several obvious mental disorders and issues is "crazy", my bad.

If you make a statement about anything, you sure as hell better be ready to defend it. Otherwise, don't make the statement. You're in a thread dedicated to the character you accuse of being "crazy". Are you really going to tell me you didn't see this coming?

It seems like you have a very different definition of crazy than the other people in this thread. To me, a crazy person wouldn't be able to control his or her actions/thoughts. Thane fits this definition to an extent, but even he has periods where he "awakens" or regains control...something like that. 

Jack, on the other hand, has always been in control. She may be really messed up, misguided, and bloodthirsty, but she's not crazy. 

if i make a statement about anything i sure as hell better be ready to defend it? what? seriously?

this isn't a political debate, its a forum for a damn video game. calm down bucko.

seriously you people are just as bad as the creepy talimancers......

Yes, seriously. You acted shocked when people criticized the things you said. This is the internet. Are you new to internet forums? 

If you make a statement on the internet, you don't have to defend it. But if you aren't ready to defend it, then don't complain when people criticize what you say. 

"Calm down bucko" and "you people"? Really dude? 

[Clonedzero]

im just going to bow out of this. its just too hostile and frustrating.
and yes, i wasn't even attacking her character, i was bringing up a point on what was preventing me from liking her more and everyone else jumped on me. i wasnt aware i had to defend myself so i was surprised.

-edit, ive asked questions like that in other character fan threads and rather than being attacked for not 100% loving the character, they just gave me their points of view and after listening i came to apperciate the character more (examples: liara, ashley, miranda, kaidan, thane), i even remember having a nice chat in the old thane htread about how i thought thane shoudl still die from hsi disease since it was a big part of his character, even though most of the fans in the thread wanted him cured, we shared opinions adn it was nice. this is just disgusting and hostile, yeah i returned hostility, but this was just ridiculous.

Modifié par Clonedzero, 03 août 2011 - 08:45 .

[Ace Attorney]

Clonedzero wrote...

kumquats wrote...

If creepy Talimancers mean, having a discussion in a civilized manner, without repeatabley insulting everyone posting on this thread.
Then yeah, I'm creepy.
And I will personally thank the Talimancers for being that awesome.

i apologize if i dont take kindly for being berated for 2-3 pages by everyone int he thread for having a different opinion on the character, it gets a bit tiresome when i just popped in to share my opinion. hell i was even saying how i apperciated her character and wanted to like her but had a hard time sympathizing with her.

but nope, i get berated and leactured. most unwelcoming community of fans around i'd say.

i was sorta expecting posts sharing your points of view compared to mine so i could see how others thought about all that, but instead i got a million posts saying "YOUR OPINION IS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!"

So down to the Martyr card. As Jack would say, "you sound like a p***y".
Get a grip, you entered a gathering of fans, you would think they would defend their views, wouldn't you? I stated before my opinions on the Psychopathy debacle and got a lot of replies against my views. I expected it, I didn't cry over it.

[l DryIce l]

Clonedzero wrote...

kumquats wrote...

If creepy Talimancers mean, having a discussion in a civilized manner, without repeatabley insulting everyone posting on this thread.
Then yeah, I'm creepy.
And I will personally thank the Talimancers for being that awesome.

i apologize if i dont take kindly for being berated for 2-3 pages by everyone int he thread for having a different opinion on the character, it gets a bit tiresome when i just popped in to share my opinion. hell i was even saying how i apperciated her character and wanted to like her but had a hard time sympathizing with her.

but nope, i get berated and leactured. most unwelcoming community of fans around i'd say.

i was sorta expecting posts sharing your points of view compared to mine so i could see how others thought about all that, but instead i got a million posts saying "YOUR OPINION IS WRONG!!!!!!!!!!"

People are going to disagree with you. Are they not allowed to think that you're wrong if they disagree. I looked back at your posts and this one stood out.

"well i guess it was a bit pointless for me to try and convey my outlook on jack without rabid fans saying "no she's a gentle little kitten!"

keep up the delusions guys. i think you missed the point of her character."

Oh, man. You're right! We're just deluded! You've exaggerated the way people have responded to you. All the posts I saw were pretty respectful. 

[l DryIce l]

Clonedzero wrote...

im just going to bow out of this. its just too hostile and frustrating.
and yes, i wasn't even attacking her character, i was bringing up a point on what was preventing me from liking her more and everyone else jumped on me. i wasnt aware i had to defend myself so i was surprised.

-edit, ive asked questions like that in other character fan threads and rather than being attacked for not 100% loving the character, they just gave me their points of view and after listening i came to apperciate the character more (examples: liara, ashley, miranda, kaidan, thane), i even remember having a nice chat in the old thane htread about how i thought thane shoudl still die from hsi disease since it was a big part of his character, even though most of the fans in the thread wanted him cured, we shared opinions adn it was nice. this is just disgusting and hostile, yeah i returned hostility, but this was just ridiculous.

I'll try and give a good analogy. You would have had to gone in the Thane thread, and accused Thane of being a willing murderer. You would have had to attack his character. 

You accused Jack of being crazy. No one called you a stupid idiot retard, did they? People disagreed and said that they thought you were wrong. Or is that not what happened? 

[Clonedzero]

l DryIce l wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

im just going to bow out of this. its just too hostile and frustrating.
and yes, i wasn't even attacking her character, i was bringing up a point on what was preventing me from liking her more and everyone else jumped on me. i wasnt aware i had to defend myself so i was surprised.

-edit, ive asked questions like that in other character fan threads and rather than being attacked for not 100% loving the character, they just gave me their points of view and after listening i came to apperciate the character more (examples: liara, ashley, miranda, kaidan, thane), i even remember having a nice chat in the old thane htread about how i thought thane shoudl still die from hsi disease since it was a big part of his character, even though most of the fans in the thread wanted him cured, we shared opinions adn it was nice. this is just disgusting and hostile, yeah i returned hostility, but this was just ridiculous.

I'll try and give a good analogy. You would have had to gone in the Thane thread, and accused Thane of being a willing murderer. You would have had to attack his character. 

You accused Jack of being crazy. No one called you a stupid idiot retard, did they? People disagreed and said that they thought you were wrong. Or is that not what happened? 

dude, im done with it. wrong or right, i don't care anymore. i dont feel like arguing about a video game character anymore, especially one i dont even like all that much.

just a sidenote, jacks mental issues are a pretty big part of her character, which i hope you're aware of. so calling her crazy isn't really an attack on her character. as crazy is an extremely vague and broad term. but whatever. im done, dont wanna get dragged into more of a pointless arguement with a hostile fanbase.

[Ace Attorney]

You're the one being hostile, get over yourself.

[l DryIce l]

Clonedzero wrote...

l DryIce l wrote...

Clonedzero wrote...

im just going to bow out of this. its just too hostile and frustrating.
and yes, i wasn't even attacking her character, i was bringing up a point on what was preventing me from liking her more and everyone else jumped on me. i wasnt aware i had to defend myself so i was surprised.

-edit, ive asked questions like that in other character fan threads and rather than being attacked for not 100% loving the character, they just gave me their points of view and after listening i came to apperciate the character more (examples: liara, ashley, miranda, kaidan, thane), i even remember having a nice chat in the old thane htread about how i thought thane shoudl still die from hsi disease since it was a big part of his character, even though most of the fans in the thread wanted him cured, we shared opinions adn it was nice. this is just disgusting and hostile, yeah i returned hostility, but this was just ridiculous.

I'll try and give a good analogy. You would have had to gone in the Thane thread, and accused Thane of being a willing murderer. You would have had to attack his character. 

You accused Jack of being crazy. No one called you a stupid idiot retard, did they? People disagreed and said that they thought you were wrong. Or is that not what happened? 

dude, im done with it. wrong or right, i don't care anymore. i dont feel like arguing about a video game character anymore, especially one i dont even like all that much.

just a sidenote, jacks mental issues are a pretty big part of her character, which i hope you're aware of. so calling her crazy isn't really an attack on her character. as crazy is an extremely vague and broad term. but whatever. im done, dont wanna get dragged into more of a pointless arguement with a hostile fanbase.

Okay, then. I wasn't aware I was being so hostile. I think we all owe you an apology. We've been extremely hostile, and that was just uncalled for. I mean, I was practically screaming at my computer screen. That's what I call hostile. Hostile, hostile, hostile, hostile, hostile.

I am aware of her mental issues. I wouldn't classify her as crazy. You say crazy is an extremely vague and broad term. That's true, which is why I stated what crazy meant to me. That's all that happened, but if you want to play the victim, go right ahead. I also apologize for the hostile tone of this whole post. Though it represents the fanbase as a whole pretty well, I should have toned it down. 

Note to hostile fanbase: Bolded statements provide lolz. 

Modifié par l DryIce l, 03 août 2011 - 09:10 .

[Goat_Shepard]

You were being berated by us? You start this "sharing of points of view" by saying Jack kills innocence for goofs, then when we don't share your opinion you call us rabid, hostile, creepy, delusional fanboys? The most unwelcoming fans around? rofl, I'd say the reception you got was far more civilized than you probably deserve when you resort to personally insulting everyone in the thread. A tip for the future: just because a majority of people in a room disagree with you, it doesn't mean you're wrong. This discussion was actually pretty interesting until you got offensive.

And a tip for everyone, if ClonedZero disagrees with you, it's a point of view contributing to a discussion, if you disagree with ClonedZero, you and your entire fanbase are hostile.

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 03 août 2011 - 09:17 .

[l DryIce l]

Goat_Shepard wrote...

You were being berated by us? You start this "sharing of points of view" by saying Jack kills innocence for goofs, then when we don't share your opinion you call us rabid, hostile, creepy, delusional fanboys? The most unwelcoming fans around? rofl, I'd say the reception you got was far more civilized than you probably deserve when you resort to personally insulting everyone in the thread. A tip for the future: just because a majority of people in a room disagree with you, it doesn't mean you're wrong. This discussion was actually pretty interesting until you got offensive.

And a tip for everyone, if ClonedZero disagrees with you, it's a point of view contributing to a discussion, if you disagree with ClonedZero, you and your entire fanbase are hostile.

Why so hostile? Look, if he wants to call one of our favorite characters crazy, that's just...like, his opinion...man. We should sit back and listen since each of us represents the whole fanbase. Everytime we say he's wrong, all we're doing is being unwelcoming of...lol. /badsarcasm

[Ace Attorney]

Clonedzero, Pony Jack disapproves your martyrdom:

[GOALISTAIR]

Ms.Taylor tweeted this recently.

Can't wait to see that!!!!!

Thanks to Whiplash for posting it ! :happy:

[100k]

GOALISTAIR wrote...

Ms.Taylor tweeted this recently.

Can't wait to see that!!!!!

Thanks to Whiplash for posting it ! :happy:

Hell yeah!!!

[Saaziel]

Great one GeneralSlotts!