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"Hello Dead People!": The Jackolyte Society


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#1401
spirosz

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Goat_Shepard wrote...

Same with everyone. Garrus taking on 3 merc bands solo. Samara flying around. Legion mowing down husks with reckless abandon. Thane neck snapping (he turned neck breaking into an art-form based on his dossier, but nooo can't do that more than once). I'm still waiting for Miranda to shoot a mechs head off at all, much less at 100 yards. Bunch of big-talkers who can't do anything in a real fight. Grunt is relatively the biggest pvssy out of all of them.



I disagree about Grunt, he can tank his way through a horde of husks charge Scions and still be alive.  

I AM KROGAN

Btw, the reaction of the player at 0:09 hilarious (looks up at Grunt see wtf just happened, back to shooting)

Modifié par spiros9110, 11 août 2011 - 02:46 .


#1402
kumquats

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Just give them a better KI, I have to babysit a lot on Insanity.
Or give Jack more survivability, Jack is all about surviving against the odds, if they don't want to give her a good bonuspower.
Grunt is only more useful because he is harder to kill, not a good sign for the KI in ME2.

Bonuspower slam is not a bad idea, I like that skill, but it needs a little buffing.

#1403
l DryIce l

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Goat_Shepard wrote...


l DryIce l wrote...
"She also references a time where one partner chose to stay behind rather than abandon her to die, getting himself killed in the process. He left a recording on their shuttle for her in case he died, it talked about the future they were supposed to have, how he planned to build a home for them, about how he loved her and was sorry it wasn't going to happen." 


Here's what I don't get about this Murtock fellow. If what Jack says is true, he used her for sex and biotics but was too much of a coward to express his plans and his feelings? So these two were fvck buddies, but he loved her, yet he didn't show that until he killed himself for her?


Well, I think you said it youself. He was a coward. It probably just took a big ultimatum for him to muster up enough courage to do what he felt was right. 

#1404
Goat_Shepard

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yorkj86 wrote...

I don't like squadmates being nerfed. I'd have them all do as much damage as Shepard, or more damage than
Shepard, at certain roles.

Indeed, I think they do half the damage Shepard does. Using the same guns. They have some advantages, most of their powers like Pull and Incinerate are instantaneous which is better than the homing missile version of the same talent that Shepard gets, and they save my life A LOT. So I don't mind that aspect, but give them the gunfire damage, please.

spiros9110 wrote...
I disagree about Grunt, he can tank his way through a horde of husks charge Scions and still be alive.  

I AM KROGAN

Btw, the reaction of the player at 0:09 hilarious (looks up at Grunt see wtf just happened, back to shooting)

That is pretty good, and funny. Still, more often than not, on Insanity he charges in and get pwned. I watched Wrex and the krogan from Choras Den size each other up and I was ready to watch an epic fight but the moment Wrex got touched he collapsed like a bunch of broccoli. Where's the blood rage, guys?

l DryIce l wrote...

Well, I think you said it youself. He was a coward. It probably just took a big ultimatum for him to muster up enough courage to do what he felt was right.

You figure a criminal who hangs out with Jack taking jobs that could kill them any day of the weak wouldn't be lacking in courage. She says he used her and it was fun, but he still recorded such a message? I'm not sure how to describe their relationship, were they "an item" but he took it too far? Or was it a shallow relationship that he took too far? Jack learns her lesson because of what he did but I wonder if she learned it vicariously or if she does feel like it was her fault.

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 11 août 2011 - 05:24 .


#1405
SlottsMachine

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 Poor Murtock, the guy can't get any respect. And I don't think its fair to say he never showed Jack that he loved her, since even if he was the most loving person imaginably I'm sure Jack wouldn't have noticed. Sure he could have said, "I love you, Jack" but I'm very sure she would have just laughed at him, "What!!??, you crazy."

Really, were going to hold it against him for realizing there plan was ****ed, and sacrificing himself rather than both of them getting killed. I can agree though that leaving the message for her was a dick move since, A) Jack had her head in the clouds previously or B) Murtock had not been acting in such a manner in that his feelings for her would have been obvious to any normal person. Either way she was clueless, so there was no reason for the message other than selfishness on the part of Murtock, but you can't argue that in the long run Jack has been better for it.

(switching topics)

The problem with giving characters the powers they deserve is that it would break the game, unless both squad and enemy AI are greatly improved. Hopefully they can find a middle ground though, since nothing endears you to character quite like getting your butt saved by them. In Fallout 3, Fawkes saved me so many times and it was awesome, until I found out for all intents and purposes he actually was invincible, kinda took the fun out of it.   

Modifié par GeneralSlotts193, 12 août 2011 - 04:07 .


#1406
DudesterMcGillicutty

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GeneralSlotts193 wrote...
The problem with giving characters the powers they deserve is that it would break the game, unless both squad and enemy AI are greatly improved. Hopefully they can find a middle ground though, since nothing endears you to character quite like getting your butt saved by them. In Fallout 3, Fawkes saved me so many times and it was awesome, until I found out for all intents and purposes he actually was invincible, kinda took the fun out of it.   


Yeah. I wish the characters would get a bit of a buff so that you feel like they're actually neccessary. Maybe the AI's just not there yet to make the level hard enough where the others NEED to be as powerful as shepard. But, either way, I wish game developers in general would tone down the greatness of characters in cutscenes to a level where it actually made sense in the game.

Goat_Shepard wrote...

DudesterMcGillicutty wrote...
When you
first get Jack she destroys three heavy mechs no problem. Then, in game,
she throws out a few shockwaves, does a few pulls, and I keep having to
spend medi-gels to revive her.

It was actually 4 mechs Posted Image but yeah you're right.


"If I die, I'm haunting you shepard!!!"

Christ, two minutes ago you were telling me I was the best thing that ever happened to you. Make up your mind already.

#1407
-Skorpious-

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 Any Jack fans in this thread who happen to be artists? I was wondering if someone would be willing to create a somewhat large 2D image of Jack's shoulder tattoo (2D so I can print the image and wrap it around my arm and have the outline "traced" on my body) and upload it to BSN. However if such an image exists already, it would be preferable if none of Jack's other tats are shown - they tend to shrink the overall detail of the image and my goal is to enlarge just the shoulder piece for maximum quality.

Unless you haven't guessed already, I am thinking of getting a new tattoo, and Jack's shoulder tattoo would flow well with my current arm pieces. :P

Any help is appreciated! 

Modifié par -Skorpious-, 12 août 2011 - 02:44 .


#1408
young fox

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DudesterMcGillicutty wrote...

Yeah. I wish the characters would get a bit of a buff so that you feel like they're actually neccessary. Maybe the AI's just not there yet to make the level hard enough where the others NEED to be as powerful as shepard. But, either way, I wish game developers in general would tone down the greatness of characters in cutscenes to a level where it actually made sense in the game.

It would certainly make characters more believable, and make sure we don't experience a sudden disconnect from the game - seeing someone tear apart four YMIR's, and then turning out to be one of the squishiest squadmembers available doesn't exactly immerse someone in the game.

But alas, it seems Cutscene Power is here to stay. It certainly makes them more fun.

DudesterMcGillicutty wrote...

"If I die, I'm haunting you shepard!!!"

Such a great quote. I really hope we're gonna hear more grunts and yells and moans from dear Courtenay in ME3.

Also, I'm planning on doing yet another run-through of ME2 on insanity. If I were to build a squad entirely around maximizing Jack's potential, what's the optimum class and second squadmember? I'm thinking Sentinel (for Warp-bombs) along with Zaeed (great damage and one power for every protection).

#1409
spirosz

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@su

On my Adept/Sentinal insanity playthroughs, I always used Jack and Miranda or Jack and Samara. Jack and Samara have a great cool-down bonus, which can help you set up Warp-bombs, staggering enemies with shockwave and just wrecking havoc. Samara and Jack make Insanity easy, once you start getting some upgrades. For earlier missions, use Miranda for her Overload and just have Jack pull field or something. Also, Jack is probably one of the more stronger squadmates, but a lot of people over look her because of "X" and "Y" excuse, but whatever.

#1410
spirosz

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-Skorpious- wrote...

 Any Jack fans in this thread who happen to be artists? I was wondering if someone would be willing to create a somewhat large 2D image of Jack's shoulder tattoo (2D so I can print the image and wrap it around my arm and have the outline "traced" on my body) and upload it to BSN. However if such an image exists already, it would be preferable if none of Jack's other tats are shown - they tend to shrink the overall detail of the image and my goal is to enlarge just the shoulder piece for maximum quality.

Unless you haven't guessed already, I am thinking of getting a new tattoo, and Jack's shoulder tattoo would flow well with my current arm pieces. :P

Any help is appreciated! 




Hey, try posting in the General discussion forum also, you might get some feedback there.  If I could i'd help :o

#1411
LGTX

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Hey Jack fans, just wanted to share some artwork I made on my iPad over the afternoon, hope you guys like it :)

Convict

#1412
Ace Attorney

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spiros9110 wrote...

@su

On my Adept/Sentinal insanity playthroughs, I always used Jack and Miranda or Jack and Samara. Jack and Samara have a great cool-down bonus, which can help you set up Warp-bombs, staggering enemies with shockwave and just wrecking havoc. Samara and Jack make Insanity easy, once you start getting some upgrades. For earlier missions, use Miranda for her Overload and just have Jack pull field or something. Also, Jack is probably one of the more stronger squadmates, but a lot of people over look her because of "X" and "Y" excuse, but whatever.

Also Sentinel's Power Armor at Rank 3 and 4 reset Squadmate cooldowns, so those two can spam stuff easy.

#1413
spirosz

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LGTX wrote...

Hey Jack fans, just wanted to share some artwork I made on my iPad over the afternoon, hope you guys like it :)

Convict



Damn, that's on an iPad?  Pretty intense stuff, good work! 

#1414
Asenza

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TL;DR: Was Jack Raped? (If so, it was sooo not necessary.)

Alright, so I've been lurking for a while now, just enjoying the discussion of all the other Jack fans, and just now decided to post.

My sister is the biggest Mass Effect fan in the world, and for a while, more engrossed in the Dragon Age Series, all I did was watch her play Mass Effect and ME2 again, and again, and again...

She never took Jack with her in her party. She never took several characters with her at all, actually- Garrus and Miranda were her staple squadmates. And while I love Garrus- who couldn't?- I just.... just something about Miranda's face bothers me, and I couldn't get very sympathetic with her history because the antagonist of it, her father, is a bogeyman we only ever hear about second hand. Bored of watching my sister play as a renagade, with nearly the same face, making all the same decisions, when I finally got interested in Mass Effect, my interest was on characters that my sister hadn't dragged all across the galaxy.

Jack, in particular. There's not much I can say about her that hasn't already been said, as to why I love her as a character so much, but I decided to post today because I had a question. On the Mass Effect Wiki, it states that Jack was raped, shortly after escaping the Cerberus facility, and then while in prison. However, throughout all the Youtube vids with Jack in them, and throughout all my sister's playthroughs (I am just now working on my own, shooting games aren't exactly my forte) I have never once heard or seen anything alluding to that particular abuse. So can anyone point me to where in the game it states- or implies- that Jack was sexually abused?

The rape issue bothers me in particular, because it feels tacked on, a tawdry attempt to add more drama and traumatic experience to an already tortured character. Wasn't it enough that she was kidnaped from her family,  imprisioned and experimented on like a lab rat, forced to kill other children and conditioned to love violence, Bioware? Wasn't it enough that her every interaction with other human beings after her escape consisted of manipulation and betrayal? I quote Limyaael, from her wonderful list of Fantasy/Creative Writing Rants when she said-

"... authors misjudge the scale of the abuse. They go too far one way or the other. On the major side, the author introduces a character who was beaten by her mother. And raped by her father. And had her teddy bear ripped apart. And who was neglected. And whose beloved brother died trying to protect her. And whose uncle starved her. And whose sister died in a fire for which the character blames herself. And whose magic was weak enough to get her teased by the other children in the mage school. And who was tortured by the bad guys. The author is screaming at me, insisting, “This character is in such pain that you can’t even imagine it!” Yes. Exactly. Increase the pain too much, and my imaginative connection with the character snaps. She becomes a blank to me, just a body for the author to heap fictional torture on. I don’t feel about her the same way I do about a victim of atrocities in the real world, because the author has reminded me that it’s all make-believe; the only reason this person is suffering so much is because the author wants her to.
"

That is how I feel about Jack. There is a lot more to her than what Cerberus did to her during her childhood, and I like that. But the thing about her history post-Teltin is that the majority of her experiences were bad ones. So to add a rape (or two, looking at the Wiki again) on top of that, when Jack as a character has been "raped" or abused the majority of her life, that has crossed a line for me.

Ugh. I'm kind of hoping that the Wiki people just got it wrong...

Since this is the romance discussion thread, I should add that I wish Jack's final romance scene had a little more dialogue to it. "That I need...-?" Need what? That all she needs is the love of a good man, and that will repair all the years of abuse and lonliness she suffered? *gags* Couldn't there have been a few more lines before Shepard says, "No more questions?" Couldn't she have said that she wasn't used to him, someone who cared about her, for her, not for what she could do for him? That, while she wasn't used to it, she felt that she could get like it? ANYTHING but just, "Maybe you're right, that I need..."?!.  That's too vague, too vague to even begin to guess what she meant by it!

>_> I think I'm done.

Modifié par Asenza, 13 août 2011 - 05:39 .


#1415
l DryIce l

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Asenza wrote...

The rape issue bothers me in particular, because it feels tacked on, a tawdry attempt to add more drama and traumatic experience to an already tortured character. Wasn't it enough that she was kidnaped from her family,  imprisioned and experimented on like a lab rat, forced to kill other children and conditioned to love violence, Bioware? Wasn't it enough that her every interaction with other human beings after her escape consisted of manipulation and betrayal? I quote Limyaael, from her wonderful list of Fantasy/Creative Writing Rants when she said-

That is how I feel about Jack. There is a lot more to her than what Cerberus did to her during her childhood, and if that was all there was to her character, I would have dismissed Jack as one-dimensional, to quote Anders, "Letting one bad experience color (her) entire life." But rape? On top of everything else she experienced? She had been victimized her entire life, and someone thought that her character was just missing some particular kind of abuse and hit up on that idea?


First of all, great post. However, I'm having trouble understanding your argument. The lines I bolded seem to almost contradict each other. You say that if all that happened to her is what Cerberus did, you would have dismissed the character as one-dimensional. Yet before, you state that this would have been enough to give Jack characterization. 

Secondly, I don't agree with the second bolded point you made. Had she only had the trauma given to her by Cerberus, I don't see that as any reason to dismiss her as a one-dimensional character. One-dimensional characters do not change, and they do let one experience "color [their] entire life". Jack certainly appears one-dimensional during the first couple conversations, and if you meant that your initial reaction would have been to classify her as one-dimensional, then I can see that point. 

My point is, is that during her loyalty mission it becomes clear that she's a charater of mixed feelings. Had the Cerberus events been the only ones affecting her, that would not be enough justification to call her one-dimensional. 

Thirdly, why rape? Why is that the tipping point? I could have made the same arguments you made, but replaced 
rape with killing children. C'mon Bioware, I get that she was conditioned to be violent, and that she was used her whole life, but she killed children her own age? Is that necessary? 

As for the underlying point of your post, I sort of agree. I think the amount of trauma she experiences not only makes the player feel like they must feel sympathy for her, but it almost makes it impossible to feel empathy towards her. Who could possibly relate with that amount of trauma? Certainly no one playing Mass Effect. 

I still think the character is great. We relate to her not as a whole, but by picking out certain characteristics and latching on to those. This is where the (huge) amount of traumatic experiences and odd personality traits come in handy. Where some might not relate to being raped, some might relate to being abused. Or anti-social, or violent, or guilty, or etc. 

Modifié par l DryIce l, 13 août 2011 - 04:37 .


#1416
Guest_franciscoamell_*

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Do you guys think that if Shepard had casual sex with Jack, she will offer it again or she still doesn't wanna play?

#1417
l DryIce l

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franciscoamell wrote...

Do you guys think that if Shepard had casual sex with Jack, she will offer it again or she still doesn't wanna play?


If you talk to her afterwards, I think you'll get the answer you're looking for. 

Modifié par l DryIce l, 13 août 2011 - 04:40 .


#1418
Guest_franciscoamell_*

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l DryIce l wrote...

franciscoamell wrote...

Do you guys think that if Shepard had casual sex with Jack, she will offer it again or she still doesn't wanna play?


If you talk to her afterwards, I think you'll get the answer you're looking for. 

I know what she says afterwards, but people can always change their minds.

#1419
Goat_Shepard

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Asenza wrote...
Alright, so I've been lurking for a while now, just enjoying the discussion of all the other Jack fans, and just now decided to post.

snip

>_> I think I'm done.

Posted Image

The instances I know of where it was implied was when you talk to Jack in the restroom of Dark Star Lounge, as well as the "being used and sold" aspect of her escape from Teltin. Her whole life is unbelievable, especially considering how relatively stable her mental state is. The way I see it, not a lot of people can relate to forced drug use, torture, murdering kids during childhood, etc, while many can relate to being raped. The way Jack's character develops, IMO can give a sense of hope, however unrealistically, to anyone who happens to be looking for it informally. I've never suffered the kind of injustice done to Jack, but I've known people who've been abused. I feel bad for her and not only want to see her survive, but to succeed brilliantly.

l DryIce l wrote...
If you talk to her afterwards, I think you'll get the answer you're looking for.

Hah!

#1420
Asenza

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Hn, I should have made it more clear.

I should probably compare her to Fenris in this aspect. It seemed to me that a lot of people didn't like Fenris because he was always talking about being a slave. At times, it felt like no subject, broached by any person could avoid eliciting the slave topic with him, his anger at mages, or his master, or the system in Tevinter.

It COULD have been the same with Jack, but so far as I've seen the only time she really goes on about Cerberus is, understandably, during her loyalty mission. What I meant by my above post, was that I liked that she had other experiences in her life AFTER escaping the Teltin facility, and that Bioware hadn't taken the easy way out by making it all there was to her character. Fenris, on the other hand, knew nothing but cruelty up until he meets Hawke, and even then it doesn't stop there.

I didn't even mind that most of her experiences after Teltin were bad- the cult, the couple she got involved with... but to add rape to a character that had already survived so much?

Modifié par Asenza, 13 août 2011 - 06:03 .


#1421
spirosz

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Great post Asenza, glad to see you popping in. As Goat mentioned, it's in the Dark Star Bathroom.

Unique Dialogue for Jack

"In the bathroom of the bar, Jack will tell a story of being sexually assaulted in the Purgatory prison showers. She then hunted down and murdered every one of her attackers."

To me, the romance scene fit well because it was seen as taking things slow and not forcing anything upon Jack because that's all she's ever experienced. With the dialogue, I think it's more to the point of them just being able to be there for each other (which is why there's a lack of dialogue) and for Jack to be able to embrace the warmth and love from Shepard and finally find someone who's honest with her.

Modifié par spiros9110, 13 août 2011 - 05:41 .


#1422
Asenza

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@spiros9110 + Goat_Shepard

Thanks for the info. Ugh, I was so hoping that someone had gotten a bit of a God complex while writing Jack's entry and took it a little too far...

l DryIce l wrote...

Asenza wrote...

The rape issue bothers me in particular, because it feels tacked on, a tawdry attempt to add more drama and traumatic experience to an already tortured character. Wasn't it enough that she was kidnaped from her family,  imprisioned and experimented on like a lab rat, forced to kill other children and conditioned to love violence, Bioware? Wasn't it enough that her every interaction with other human beings after her escape consisted of manipulation and betrayal? I quote Limyaael, from her wonderful list of Fantasy/Creative Writing Rants when she said-

That is how I feel about Jack. There is a lot more to her than what Cerberus did to her during her childhood, and if that was all there was to her character, I would have dismissed Jack as one-dimensional, to quote Anders, "Letting one bad experience color (her) entire life." But rape? On top of everything else she experienced? She had been victimized her entire life, and someone thought that her character was just missing some particular kind of abuse and hit up on that idea?


First of all, great post. However, I'm having trouble understanding your argument. The lines I bolded seem to almost contradict each other. You say that if all that happened to her is what Cerberus did, you would have dismissed the character as one-dimensional. Yet before, you state that this would have been enough to give Jack characterization. 

Secondly, I don't agree with the second bolded point you made. Had she only had the trauma given to her by Cerberus, I don't see that as any reason to dismiss her as a one-dimensional character. One-dimensional characters do not change, and they do let one experience "color [their] entire life". Jack certainly appears one-dimensional during the first couple conversations, and if you meant that your initial reaction would have been to classify her as one-dimensional, then I can see that point. 

My point is, is that during her loyalty mission it becomes clear that she's a charater of mixed feelings. Had the Cerberus events been the only ones affecting her, that would not be enough justification to call her one-dimensional. 

Thirdly, why rape? Why is that the tipping point? I could have made the same arguments you made, but replaced 
rape with killing children. C'mon Bioware, I get that she was conditioned to be violent, and that she was used her whole life, but she killed children her own age? Is that necessary? 

As for the underlying point of your post, I sort of agree. I think the amount of trauma she experiences not only makes the player feel like they must feel sympathy for her, but it almost makes it impossible to feel empathy towards her. Who could possibly relate with that amount of trauma? Certainly no one playing Mass Effect. 

I still think the character is great. We relate to her not as a whole, but by picking out certain characteristics and latching on to those. This is where the (huge) amount of traumatic experiences and odd personality traits come in handy. Where some might not relate to being raped, some might relate to being abused. Or anti-social, or violent, or guilty, or etc. 


I updated my post, I hope this makes things more clear?

"There is a lot more to her than what Cerberus did to her during her childhood, and I like that.
But the thing about her history post-Teltin is that the majority of her
experiences were bad ones. So to add a rape (or two, looking at the
Wiki again) on top of that, when Jack as a character has been "raped" or
abused the majority of her life, that has crossed a line for me."

Modifié par Asenza, 13 août 2011 - 05:59 .


#1423
spirosz

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And you know, sometimes sh!t just happens, especially being in the environment that she was in most of her life; criminal, gangs, cults. Since she was a female too and being around power-hungry men and such, I can see it happening

#1424
Asenza

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spiros9110 wrote...

And you know, sometimes sh!t just happens, especially being in the environment that she was in most of her life; criminal, gangs, cults. Since she was a female too and being around power-hungry men and such, I can see it happening


Yeah, but... when you meet Jack at Purgatory, she can take out several heavy mechs and wreck half the station all by herself. This is Jack, arguably the strongest human biotic, an efficient killing machine, conditioned to fight from a young age, with probably the best biotics science could engineer, run by ruthless and determined scientists funded by the bottomless coffers of Cerberus...

And she gets raped in the prison showers? She doesn't need guns, she is her own weapon! It makes no sense at all that she can take out mechs bare-handed (and if one wants to argue it was simply cut-scene dramatics, then she has to at least be skilled/powerful enough to warrant being an asset on Shepard's mission) but get attacked and subdued against a group of other prisoners who presumably didn't have shields,  barriers and armor... grr, just ticks me off even more now...

Can't have it both ways, Bioware. *silent rage*

Modifié par Asenza, 13 août 2011 - 06:01 .


#1425
spirosz

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Yeah, that got to me too, but I was assuming that Purgatory had restrained her biotic amp somehow when she was roaming around, so that led to them wanting to take advantage of her because of the state she might of been in. Also, I believe that's why they put her in cryo.  When she is in cryo, they wouldn't have to worry about tampering with anything because she can't do anything in that state.

Modifié par spiros9110, 13 août 2011 - 06:06 .