7744 réponses à ce sujet

[Asenza]

 l DryIce l wrote...

"Thirdly, why rape? Why is that the tipping point? I could have made the same arguments you made, but replaced 
rape with killing children. C'mon Bioware, I get that she was conditioned to
be violent, and that she was used her whole life, but she killed children her own age? Is that necessary?"

I think rape is the tipping point for me because the one thing that Jack got as a result of her childhood, was biotic strength. The means by which she got it- horrible, should have never happened, and I bet she'd give it up if she could (especially since I'm reading things about neurological degeneration now...) to make the memories go away.

But a side effect of all that experimentation was that she had the powers to defend herself. And after escaping the Teltin facility, she lived by her wits and her biotics. Once inside Purgatory, however, surrounded by inmates that shouldn't have anything more than rudimentary weapons- and no armour at all- she is attacked and is unable to defend herself? Thus, the one "good" thing that came out of her early childhood tortue was also rendered meaningless.

I feel like rape was the tipping point because as a child, Jack wasn't in much of a position to defend herself, couldn't stop from killing the other children. As an adult being sexually assaulted in the prison showers, by then she was a strong biotic, strong enough to warrant being an asset on the Quest to Stop the Collectors, but not strong enough to fight off a group of inmates.

That bothers me. Jack could have been attacked in the shower, fine. But in defending herself, she could have murdered everyone of her attackers then and there. Thus, a failed attack, and the reason she was put into cryo. .... hn, I wonder what made the difference that she couldn't kill her attackers DURING the attack, but had no problem murdering all of them AFTER the fact... .

 spiros9110 wrote...

"Yeah, that got to me too, but I was  assuming that Purgatory had restrained her biotic amp somehow when she
was roaming around, so that led to them wanting to take advantage of herbecause of the state she might of been in. Also, I believe that's why they put her in cryo.  When she is in cryo, they wouldn't have to worry
about tampering with anything because she can't do anything in that state."

I don't understand exactly how amps work. I was under the impression that they couldn't be removed. I don't think I can say anything about it.

Modifié par Asenza, 13 août 2011 - 06:36 .

[KingNothing125]

There's certainly inconsistency between destroying 4 YMIR mechs at once and being subdued by a group of prisoners.

I think the Jack "reveal" was just overdone to increase its "wow, awesome" factor. classic "Cutscene Power" trope. Nothing wrong with it, I enjoyed it, and I certainly said "wow, awesome", but let's face it... there's no way anyone's going to take down 3 (shown in the cutscene) or 4 (mech corpses after-the-fact) YMIR mechs singlehandedly in that amount of time. Doesn't matter who you are.

But having biotic powers doesn't make you Superman or a Jedi. You're not invincible, and you certainly don't develop precognition or anything like that. If 7 guys take her by surprise, there's not a lot she can do about it, biotics be damned. It's not like she could see it coming.

She does manage to take out 2 of her attackers, but if the rest just pile on her so she can't move, what is she supposed to do? (That's something the YMIR mechs couldn't do, by the way... restrain her arms and legs).

Take the second Matrix movie for example. Here's a guy, Neo, who is almost God at this point... he can basically do whatever the flip he wants... but during the "Burly Brawl", in the end, he still gets subdued by the sheer number of Agent Smith copies until he pulls the Superman move and escapes.

As for how she ended up in cryo, it could have just as easily been because of her systematic elimination of the other 5 guys after-the-fact.

[Goat_Shepard]

Asenza wrote...
I don't understand exactly how amps work. I was under the impression that they couldn't be removed. I don't think I can say anything about it.

Amps can be removed, you swapped them in and out all the time in ME1. Without them, IIRC, you can't use biotics.

KingNothing125 wrote...
She does manage to take out 2 of her attackers, but if the rest just pile on her so she can't move, what is she supposed to do? (That's something the YMIR mechs couldn't do, by the way... restrain her arms and legs).

Indeed, and I think the codex states that biotics wear light armor in order to perform the hand and body choreography necessary to manipulate mass, so I imagine physically restraining a biotic or putting them in handcuffs renders them useless.

Modifié par Goat_Shepard, 13 août 2011 - 08:00 .

[l DryIce l]

I think KingNothing125 made a good point. I can see how it seems inconsistent, though. I'm guessing she was taken by surprise. She's strong, but she's not a superhero.

[Goat_Shepard]

Ohh, and it was prisoners and guards, so spiros might have a point that she was taken advantage of in a poor state. She "cracked the skull" of one and "snapped the spine" of another, so she either had access to biotics or she's stronger than she looks. I'm guessing it's the former, and she was eventually restrained.

*sinks deeper into depression*

[PiercedMonk]

Asenza wrote...

The rape issue bothers me in particular, because it feels tacked on, a tawdry attempt to add more drama and traumatic experience to an already tortured character. Wasn't it enough that she was kidnaped from her family,  imprisioned and experimented on like a lab rat, forced to kill other children and conditioned to love violence, Bioware? Wasn't it enough that her every interaction with other human beings after her escape consisted of manipulation and betrayal?

Excellent post.

And I'd agree with you that Jack being raped in the showers seems somewhat excessive after everything else she suffered. Rape is such a cheap way to demonstrate the vulnerability of female characters -- somehow it doesn't usually provoke the same reaction when it happen to an adult male -- and somewhat overused in fiction.

That said, it certinally did elicit an emotional reaction in me the first time I encountered that bit of dialogue; it was completely unexpected and caught me by surprise and I was suddenly torn between a desire to hug Jack and beat the **** out her assailants. Which is, y'know, ridiculous because they're all fictional. I think the worst thing about it is the casual, matter-of-fact way in which Jack describes the attack. Granted, in her case, a bit more damage is just another handful of sand on the beach it still disturbed me. I've had friends and girlfriends descibe being sexually assaulted or date raped almost the same way, casually, as if it's just one of those things that occasionally happens to women, and it makes me furious at my own gender every time.

As for how it could happen, presumably biotics wouldn't be allowed their bio-amps in the prison which would severely limit what she's able to manifest -- though that would raise the question of how she was able to wreck such havoc fresh out of the freezer during her introduction -- also, Thane's dossier in LotSB describes some submission holds which can be applied to biotics that puts them in too much discomfort for them to be able to focus on using their abilities. The various 'Mass Effect' novels also talk about how much effort it takes for biotics to continually use their abilities, describing it as being very draining.

[100k]

Well, her rape was a fairly realistic considering her location -- and it definitely doesn't make her more vulnerable in my opinion. She doesn't even blink when she mentions it -- because she faced worse. Remember what almost happened to Ripley in Alien 3?

If Jack was a man, and was raped, I would still feel the same way, disgusted. But as with the current female Jack, I also would hold a great deal of respect and cold admiration for how she could brush something like that off.

Granted, I would argue that a man raping a woman is similar to a man beating up a woman: it has less to do with gender and sexuality and more to do with a power struggle. Most men in prison who rape aren't gay -- they're establishing a hierarchy through humiliation [consciously/subconsciously].

So, whether Jack was gang raped or had the sh!t kicked out of her in the shower, I think the conflict in prison (and aboard the ship) is just there to establish that there are people in the galaxy worse than her.

Jack never came off to me as a villain -- yes, she's violent and cruel, but it's more of a defensive mechanism (which men have as well) than true criminal behavior. She may cause vast amounts of damage and death, but I doubt that she'd go into a room of innocents and start killing. It's what separates her from, say, a krogan battle master.

*Of course I could be wrong. She might kill innocents for pleasure without remorse -- but I doubt it. She's arguably a "better" human being than Zaeed (even though I really like him) who will do whatever so long as the pay is good*

[fainmaca]

First of all: I thought it was established that Jack's bio-amp was permanently attached/couldn't be removed?

Secondly: Biotic power uses an incredible amount of energy. I believe the codex says that a Biotic soldier has double rations due to the extra energy they need. So, if you get enough people attacking her, it's not a matter of if, but when. Eventually she'll be too tired to fight back.

Thirdly: Jack mentions in that piece of dialogue that she needed to take some time to heal up afterwards before she went after her assailants. This implies she was badly hurt before the... act. If they got the jump on her, this is plausible. Especially if you consider where this happened. Prison showers. She could easily have been distracted by going about her business. An injury would be a severe hindrance to her. Not just physically, but also in trying to summon the focus to use her powers.

Fourthly: I find this no more heinous than having her background of scientific experimentation. Both aspects represent a violation of one's being, in some form or another. Sure, it's a bit like keeping on kicking the dead puppy, but that's the point of Jack's story. She's been through some bad stuff, and the only really good things she's had (Murtock, Manara, the cult) turned sour, usually because of the people she trusted. She survives by insulating herself against her own feelings, living on pure instinct and strength rather than passion and heart, which she thinks will only bring her more pain.

When I heard her speak about that experience, I was incensed, but not because Bioware was taking things a step too far. I was angry that she, a fictional character, had to live through something like that, and was glad to hear that justice was served. The one other time I reacted in a similar fashion: LotSB, when the Shadow Broker threatened my Jack. 'Her corpse will net almost as much as the Commander's'. I was holding a plastic bottle of water at the time, and my fist clenched involuntarily, crushing the bottle. Nobody threatens Jack, not when my Shepard's around!

Anyway, my two cents, though it feels more like I put in two quarters.

[GOALISTAIR]

@ LGTX
Very nice work!! Thanks for the post!

@ Asenza
No more lurking for you! You must post more often!  

[Asenza]

GOALISTAIR wrote...

@ LGTX
Very nice work!! Thanks for the post!

@ Asenza
No more lurking for you! You must post more often!  

Sure thing. I was holding that rant in for a while now... but my sister wasn't interested and no one else I know plays Mass Effect. Lets see what else I could rant about that's Jack related...


@fainmaca,


If you put in two quarters, I must have put in Six fifty.

Modifié par Asenza, 13 août 2011 - 11:45 .

[100k]

fainmaca wrote...When I heard her speak about that experience, I was incensed, but not because Bioware was taking things a step too far. I was angry that she, a fictional character, had to live through something like that, and was glad to hear that justice was served...

Hell. Yeah. 

But it wasn't just that experience of rape that did it for me. It was the whole nine yards, with Cerberus, with those two pirates, with the prison -- all of it. Had just one of those things happened to Jack, I might have been a little sad, but I wouldn't have thought that justified her permanently bad attitude. 

[Cespar]

ok new topic lol, do u think Jack could have her own dlc anybody!!?

[l DryIce l]

Bonte15 wrote...

ok new topic lol, do u think Jack could have her own dlc anybody!!?

No. Character DLC does not sound like a good idea. 

[KingNothing125]

good post, fainmaca, I agree.

l DryIce l wrote...

No. Character DLC does not sound like a good idea.

LotSB is sort of character DLC, and it was excellent.

But if you're referring to something like Leiliana's Song for DA:O, then yeah I would agree.

Something character-driven like LotSB starring Jack would be super neat though, definitely.

[spirosz]

LotSB was more driven by certain story elements though, more specifically the Shadow Broker identity, which plays a big role ME3. I can't really see Jack having a DLC though, well until we see what her involvement in Mass Effect 3 is going to be. Till then, I can't see it happening.

[spirosz]

Didn't realize she had these many scars

[Asenza]

Are those really scars? Very neat, for scars... unless they're... surgical scars and Cerberus was playing a game of dotted lines. Where did you find that?

[Cespar]

but it would help us learn about her past more and can actually see everything first hand. And are you sure those are scars? They look like tats

[Zall]

yorkj86 wrote...

Those are her surgical scars. We don't know their purpose, but we could guess at it.

Hell, even if they were for artistic reasons (people getting their skin removed in designs, so that the scar tissue will form in a desired pattern), they'd still technically be scars.

We don't even know at what age she got them. Pragia? Later?

Either way, these scars must mean something.

[Johnny34]

Asenza wrote...

 l DryIce l wrote...

"Thirdly, why rape? Why is that the tipping point? I could have made the same arguments you made, but replaced 
rape with killing children. C'mon Bioware, I get that she was conditioned to
be violent, and that she was used her whole life, but she killed children her own age? Is that necessary?"

I think rape is the tipping point for me because the one thing that Jack got as a result of her childhood, was biotic strength. The means by which she got it- horrible, should have never happened, and I bet she'd give it up if she could (especially since I'm reading things about neurological degeneration now...) to make the memories go away.

But a side effect of all that experimentation was that she had the powers to defend herself. And after escaping the Teltin facility, she lived by her wits and her biotics. Once inside Purgatory, however, surrounded by inmates that shouldn't have anything more than rudimentary weapons- and no armour at all- she is attacked and is unable to defend herself? Thus, the one "good" thing that came out of her early childhood tortue was also rendered meaningless.

I feel like rape was the tipping point because as a child, Jack wasn't in much of a position to defend herself, couldn't stop from killing the other children. As an adult being sexually assaulted in the prison showers, by then she was a strong biotic, strong enough to warrant being an asset on the Quest to Stop the Collectors, but not strong enough to fight off a group of inmates.

That bothers me. Jack could have been attacked in the shower, fine. But in defending herself, she could have murdered everyone of her attackers then and there. Thus, a failed attack, and the reason she was put into cryo. .... hn, I wonder what made the difference that she couldn't kill her attackers DURING the attack, but had no problem murdering all of them AFTER the fact... .

 spiros9110 wrote...

"Yeah, that got to me too, but I was  assuming that Purgatory had restrained her biotic amp somehow when she
was roaming around, so that led to them wanting to take advantage of herbecause of the state she might of been in. Also, I believe that's why they put her in cryo.  When she is in cryo, they wouldn't have to worry
about tampering with anything because she can't do anything in that state."

I don't understand exactly how amps work. I was under the impression that they couldn't be removed. I don't think I can say anything about it.

Wasn't there like 5 guys who actually made it to her? Enough to hold down a persons legs and arms and at that point what can you really do?

Modifié par Johnny34, 14 août 2011 - 05:44 .

[100k]

Asenza wrote...
I feel like rape was the tipping point because as a child, Jack wasn't in much of a position to defend herself, couldn't stop from killing the other children. As an adult being sexually assaulted in the prison showers, by then she was a strong biotic, strong enough to warrant being an asset on the Quest to Stop the Collectors, but not strong enough to fight off a group of inmates.

Well, even the best specialists in the galaxy can be over powered by just a few men under certain conditions. Remember Thane? Had Shepard not intervened during his recruitment mission, Thane would've been killed in Nassana's office by -- what, four men? It just goes to show that occasionally, training and experience are useless if the timing/position isn't right. There are probably situations where Shepard and his/her training couldn't survive involving bad positioning and enemy numbers. 

That bothers me. Jack could have been attacked in the shower, fine. But in defending herself, she could have murdered everyone of her attackers then and there. Thus, a failed attack, and the reason she was put into cryo. .... hn, I wonder what made the difference that she couldn't kill her attackers DURING the attack, but had no problem murdering all of them AFTER the fact... .

Well, take heart my friend. We don't know what the conditions were that allowed Jack to be raped. If twenty men including the guards) assaulted her in the showers in a horny frenzy, and only five managed to survive or get a piece of her, that's pretty damn bad ass on her part. I doubt even Zaeed, Jacob, or Miranda could've done that much damage in a surprise attack.

[ExiledTyrant]

100k wrote...

Asenza wrote...
I feel like rape was the tipping point because as a child, Jack wasn't in much of a position to defend herself, couldn't stop from killing the other children. As an adult being sexually assaulted in the prison showers, by then she was a strong biotic, strong enough to warrant being an asset on the Quest to Stop the Collectors, but not strong enough to fight off a group of inmates.

Well, even the best specialists in the galaxy can be over powered by just a few men under certain conditions. Remember Thane? Had Shepard not intervened during his recruitment mission, Thane would've been killed in Nassana's office by -- what, four men? It just goes to show that occasionally, training and experience are useless if the timing/position isn't right. There are probably situations where Shepard and his/her training couldn't survive involving bad positioning and enemy numbers. 

That bothers me. Jack could have been attacked in the shower, fine. But in defending herself, she could have murdered everyone of her attackers then and there. Thus, a failed attack, and the reason she was put into cryo. .... hn, I wonder what made the difference that she couldn't kill her attackers DURING the attack, but had no problem murdering all of them AFTER the fact... .

Well, take heart my friend. We don't know what the conditions were that allowed Jack to be raped. If twenty men including the guards) assaulted her in the showers in a horny frenzy, and only five managed to survive or get a piece of her, that's pretty damn bad ass on her part. I doubt even Zaeed, Jacob, or Miranda could've done that much damage in a surprise attack.

it's very important to note that Purgatory is also the super crimnal jail of the galaxy. Men and women so brutal that people pay to have them held planets awa  in cyro. 4 super crinmals( not just talking what big name serial killers are to humans but different speciesof crimnals capable of unspeakable horrors acrossthe galaxy  and 3 elite blue sun guards rushing jack ( possibly in a malnurished or vulnerable state) can spell trouble for anyone.

secondly when jack was captured by the rogue ship we have to remeber she was still a kid ( possibly early teens) she lived a sheltered life ( sheltered by the fact that she was given little iteraction with other humans or adults) thus easily open to being tricked and not understanding the crews motives, and her biotics weren't mastered probally not even near at the power level she can weild now.


while overwhelmingly sad and heaped onto an already tragic upbringing I find it totally beliveable due to these details. infact the way Jack is so honest with you and strong from such events makes me like her all the more over other Lis and side characters.

[ModroTheAnnihilator]

I initially liked Tali over Jack, but Jack's story is the kind that just grows on you for some odd reason. Now, people may shoot me down for saying this, but I do think that Jack's romance is the best written romance out of every other female LI for Shepard so far, Thane's being the male counterpart for FemShep.

Anyway, I read this comic recently, and I thought I'd share with you guys. My bad if this has been posted before.

http://epantiras.dev...ry-01-186016929

Fanart (again, my apologies if reposted):

http://browse.devian...et=192#/d3k92lf

http://browse.devian...et=672#/d2twltd

http://browse.devian...et=648#/d2v3hfr

http://browse.devian...set=48#/d45qkf3

http://browse.devian...et=240#/d3iwwep

http://browse.devian...et=312#/d3enldz

http://browse.devian...et=432#/d37v03f

http://browse.devian...et=456#/d35xjjc

http://browse.devian...et=768#/d2lh8q9

http://browse.devian...et=384#/d39xywf

http://browse.devian...et=672#/d2u5jru

Modifié par ModroTheAnnihilator, 14 août 2011 - 01:40 .

[Zall]

ModroTheAnnihilator wrote...

I initially liked Tali over Jack, but Jack's story is the kind that just grows on you for some odd reason. Now, people may shoot me down for saying this, but I do think that Jack's romance is the best written romance out of every other female LI for Shepard so far, Thane's being the male counterpart for FemShep.

Shoot you down for praising the Jack romance? Hey, we're here in the Jack appreciation thread, not the Miranda one.

Jack's romance gets to me each time I replay the game. Jack as a character is interesting enough already, but I'm most moved by how Shepard refuses to leave her. Despite all odds, Jack gets the chance to be loved and accepted, to find one day peace from her past. Out of all characters, she deserves a happy ending the most.