82210 réponses à ce sujet

[flemm]

naledgeborn wrote...
 I vote for the next BW IP to not have a karma meter.

Well, I think having a single "charisma" stat that opens up both types of options will really smooth out a lot of the problems with the current system, where it feels like you are locked into one path or the other.

I think having some type of stat associated with your choices is an important part of making them feel significant in the game, though, from a design perspective, so I'm not sure I'd advocate eliminating it entirely.

What I would like is a system that is not good vs. evil, but two different philosophies. For example, the whole "idealism vs. pragmatism" debate is pretty fascinating, much more so than most of the choices in the actual game (which I don't think were mostly designed with that in mind).
 
Actually, I'd love a system where there were three different philosophies (instead of two + a neutral option), though that probably increases the design difficulty by a lot.

Modifié par flemm, 14 janvier 2012 - 04:16 .

[naledgeborn]

One thing the Dragon Age IP did right (though it needs a lot of refinement) is the friendship/rivalry meter. There is no "good" or "evil" but pros and cons to both sides of any given conflict. And where you stand on these conflicts is more or less reflected by your party.

Darkside/Lightside needs to go though or at least severely reworked.

Edit: A neutral alignment could be tricky. I try my best in Mass Effect and I almost fill up the Renegade bar and usually fill up the other one. Having two gauges is the best way to convey neutrality in concept, but it doesn't really translate in game with out metagaming or very focused roleplaying.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 14 janvier 2012 - 04:20 .

[flemm]

naledgeborn wrote...

One thing the Dragon Age IP did right (though it needs a lot of refinement) is the friendship/rivalry meter.

Agreed. A clear improvement over the approve/disapprove system in DA:O, conceptually, though DA:O is by far the superior game for other reasons.

Modifié par flemm, 14 janvier 2012 - 04:15 .

[schemata]

jtav wrote...

Merely an observation. I seem to gravitate toward those backgrounds least suited to her on paper. And yet, I can't imagine Matt with anyone else.

I can see that.  It's not about where they've been or who they were, but who they are and where there going; and that they'll be together. Like it

[jtav]

Just to prove I do like her, one of the things I do like about Miranda's romance is that it is possible for her to get the guy without undue suffering. I read a lot of genre romance, and Miranda is absolutely not the type who gets the hero. She may begin as the hero's mistress, but he almost always ends up with someone more, er, moral. If she's a heroine in her own right, she'll fall so that she's worthy of the hero. Miranda doesn't.

[Ieldra]

naledgeborn wrote...
Prohuman = prohuman. Prohuman =/= Renegade (which is just "personality flavor"). I vote for the next BW IP to not have a karma meter.

If it has a karma meter, then it should not be linked to any political issues like being pro-human or not.

@schemata:
My main Shepard is neutral, i.e. he does what he thinks is best regardless of any particular style. He's a results-oriented man, with a strong consequentialist element in his morality, but all that means is that he chooses "Renegade" options when he thinks it's the best solution, not as a rule.

Also, he's pro-human in the sense that he wants the best for the human species. If something also benefits the others, that's ok and he won't go out of his way to prevent it, but the other species have a lower priority than humanity.

Edit:
Bioware said there will be more interesting outcomes for Shepards of "mixed" alignment. I'm very curious about what they might have done there, because almost all of my Shepards have less than 20% difference between their Paragon and Renegade scores.

I also think that not being bound by a "moral philosophy" is appropriate for Shepards who romance Miranda.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 14 janvier 2012 - 04:26 .

[naledgeborn]

Disagree jtav. There's been a lot of strong "ice ****es" in science fiction who gradually fit into the role of the hero's lancer (and love interest). The problem with ME is that there's barely no time for it to develop. It's very all or nothing, if it were a tv or book series I can see Miranda and Shepard becoming a pretty solid battle couple.

[flemm]

naledgeborn wrote...
Edit: A neutral alignment could be tricky. I try my best in Mass Effect and I almost fill up the Renegade bar and usually fill up the other one. Having two gauges is the best way to convey neutrality in concept, but it doesn't really translate in game with out metagaming or very focused roleplaying.

It would. However, maybe not impossible?

To use the Star Wars example, could you have three alignments associated with Vader, Han Solo and Luke respectively? Basically, it would be: Dark, Scoundrel/Renegade/whatever you want to call it (this is the new one), Light.

Another possibility might be: idealist, pragmatic, and tyrannical.

The trick would be designing choices that could take all three options into account. I think that would be... really challenging. Though potentially fascinating.

Modifié par flemm, 14 janvier 2012 - 04:26 .

[flemm]

naledgeborn wrote...

Disagree jtav. There's been a lot of strong "ice ****es" in science fiction who gradually fit into the role of the hero's lancer (and love interest).

Agreed, it's not that unusual. One that is really quite similar is John Crichton/Aeyrn Sun on Farscape. She even has the accent (played by Claudia Black).

Here is part of the blurb to describe Aeyrn Sun:

While serving as a Peacekeeper, Aeryn resisted becoming close to other people; though she never spent any time alone - always part of a regiment, a battalion, a colony - she was very independent, and never allowed herself to feel emotions like love. Her experience on Moya has taught her that there are other means and methods of communicating, but, like D'Argo, she still turns to combat as her primary solution to any problem Moya might face. Even at her most diplomatic, Aeryn keeps her Pulse Rifle close at hand.

She definitely gets the hero, to the point that, in later seasons of the show, the two of them making out becomes an almost ridiculously prominent feature of the show.

Modifié par flemm, 14 janvier 2012 - 04:36 .

[jtav]

I still have to beg for the type. Maybe I'm reading the wrong books.

You know the infamous ass shot? Are we to take that as deliberate? I can see Miranda as desperate enough to implicitly offer sex in exchange for Oriana's safety.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

You know the infamous ass shot? Are we to take that as deliberate?

Since Shepard cannot see her ass very clearly from where he is standing, I don't think so.

Modifié par flemm, 14 janvier 2012 - 04:38 .

[naledgeborn]

The Ass shot was an obvious gratuitous wall breaker for the player. From Shepard's angle he/she cleary wasn't seeing what the player was.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 14 janvier 2012 - 04:44 .

[schemata]

Ieldra2 wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...
Prohuman = prohuman. Prohuman =/= Renegade (which is just "personality flavor"). I vote for the next BW IP to not have a karma meter.

If it has a karma meter, then it should not be linked to any political issues like being pro-human or not.

@schemata:
My main Shepard is neutral, i.e. he does what he thinks is best regardless of any particular style. He's a results-oriented man, with a strong consequentialist element in his morality, but all that means is that he chooses "Renegade" options when he thinks it's the best solution, not as a rule.

Also, he's pro-human in the sense that he wants the best for the human species. If something also benefits the others, that's ok and he won't go out of his way to prevent it, but the other species have a lower priority than humanity.

Edit:
Bioware said there will be more interesting outcomes for Shepards of "mixed" alignment. I'm very curious about what they might have done there, because almost all of my Shepards have less than 20% difference between their Paragon and Renegade scores.

I also think that not being bound by a "moral philosophy" is appropriate for Shepards who romance Miranda.

I get you. The only problem I see is a practical one.  Often times when you don't take options that might otherwise grant you points, you won't have enough points to hit the choices when they do matter know what I mean?  Why Ive never went for a full on neutral run. Fraid Ill get locked out of options when they truly matter. I am also very excited about the new alignment system, and felt the current system for both games was blatant, shallow, and flat.  Renegade to me, often has boiled down to Either, 1, shortsightedness 2 self centered 3 or harmful for the sake of being a ******.  Often isnt very fun.  wish they had implemented a DA system from the get go.  I imagine however they did it the way they have, so people could foresee what the implications would be. /tangeant

[flemm]

naledgeborn wrote...

The Ass shot was an obvious gratuitous wall breaker for the player. From Shepard's angle he/she cleary wasn't seeing what the player was.

I think part of what happened is the designers became enamored of the admittedly gorgeous backside they had created.

Which has a sort of odd parallel to the romance between Miranda and Shepard post-Lazarus.

Miranda is weird like that. Even the most superficial stuff ends up not being all that superficial.

Modifié par flemm, 14 janvier 2012 - 04:50 .

[jtav]

Thing about Miranda though is that I don't think she even likes Shep for a while. But I can see her taking pleasure in her handiwork once the romance is established.

[Prudii Aden]

While others can empathise with the Earthborn background, Spacer is something I can empathise with - Spacer Sheps are the Services kids, moving around from place, the only constant being their family.

[naledgeborn]

jtav wrote...

Thing about Miranda though is that I don't think she even likes Shep for a while. But I can see her taking pleasure in her handiwork once the romance is established.

Man, you need to watch the first season of Farscape. The "girl" is constantly looking down at the "hero" and sees him as an inferior and is constantly confused by his actions. I think you'd like it. 

[jtav]

I tried actually. Gave up after a couple of first season eps.

[ThomGau]

flemm wrote...

I think part of what happened is the designers became enamored of the admittedly gorgeous backside they had

This could be an explanation though it is quite an inapropriate moment for an assshot to occur during that scene .
I don't think she would exchange sex for her sister's safety, also I don't think Shepard as the main character would ask her that kind of blackmail .

The " perhaps I wouldn't mind if you admired my body "  shot fits more, in my opinion .

[naledgeborn]

Yeah I picked it up. Stopped watching for about two months. Picked it up again and couldn't stop. Very good series once belief is suspended.

[android654]

Prudii Aden wrote...

While others can empathise with the Earthborn background, Spacer is something I can empathise with - Spacer Sheps are the Services kids, moving around from place, the only constant being their family.

However, as a colonist or Earth born you have the opportunity to share something with Miranda that's central to her character that you can't share as a Spacer. Miranda is an orphan by choice, this is central to understanding her motivations and Shepard could be an orphan by circumstance. As a spacer, it makes Shepard into too traditional a person to be relatable to someone like Miranda.

Simply because the character does amazing things and is perfect in every sense of the word doesn't overwrite the fact that at her core Miranda is a misfit.

[jtav]

Oh, I think she'd offer sex. I think she'd do anything short of working for the Reapers for Oriana. I find that an interesting virtue.flaw. Shepard could never say yes and remain a hero, though.

[Ieldra]

schemata wrote...
I get you. The only problem I see is a practical one.  Often times when you don't take options that might otherwise grant you points, you won't have enough points to hit the choices when they do matter know what I mean?  Why Ive never went for a full on neutral run. Fraid Ill get locked out of options when they truly matter.

If that's the case and it's important enough, I cheat. However, it is quite possible to get almost all choices enabled while playing neutral. I made a guide about that, see here. The trick is to do the missions with difficult-to-get options as early as possible.

I am also very excited about the new alignment system, and felt the current system for both games was blatant, shallow, and flat.  Renegade to me, often has boiled down to Either, 1, shortsightedness 2 self centered 3 or harmful for the sake of being a ******.  Often isnt very fun.

Yes, some Renegade choices are outright retarded. Some, however, are very much pragmatic. I tend to take those and avoid the former.

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

The Ass shot was an obvious gratuitous wall breaker for the player. From Shepard's angle he/she cleary wasn't seeing what the player was.

I think part of what happened is the designers became enamored of the admittedly gorgeous backside they had created.

I recall a scene someone wrote up a year ago, where a graphic designer begged Casey Hudson for a release delay so that he could get Miranda's ass more perfect.

Which has a sort of odd parallel to the romance between Miranda and Shepard post-Lazarus.

Miranda is weird like that. Even the most superficial stuff ends up not being all that superficial.

Which parallel do you see in that?

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
I tried actually. Gave up after a couple of first season eps.

Hard to keep watching a show if you despise the main character...