82210 réponses à ce sujet

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

It would be interesting to see what correlations there are. For myself, my favorites are Mordin, Legion, Kaidan, and Liara. Thane and Tali as well. I absolutely loathe Garrus and dislike Grunt. Ash I'm indifferent to.

Interesting you say you like Tali, given how when I first joined these threads you were one of the ones talking about lynching them equally. What happened? And why like Tali but still dislike Garrus?

In anycase Cpt Data is right, Ashley and Miranda fanbases do overlap. I chose Ashley in ME1. Then Horizon happened. But I still like the character and am looking forward to seeing what she can do in ME3. Otherwise besides Miranda I am also very partial to: Kasumi, Liara, Mordin,Tali, Legion, Samara and Garrus. I like Wrex but I can't consider him a favorite. Everyone else is meh.

[jtav]

I like Tali the character. I hate dealing with her fans to the point that it soured me on the character. Same with Thane. I hate Garrus on the merits. If I wasn't sure I needed his war assets, I'd kill him off every game.

[goofyomnivore]

It would be interesting to see what correlations there are. For myself, my favorites are Mordin, Legion, Kaidan, and Liara. Thane and Tali as well. I absolutely loathe Garrus and dislike Grunt. Ash I'm indifferent to.

I'm pretty much the same as you, switch Tali and Ash around and add Garrus to the indifferent list.

In anycase Cpt Data is right, Ashley and Miranda fanbases do overlap. I chose Ashley in ME1. Then Horizon happened. But I still like the character and am looking forward to seeing what she can do in ME3.

I started out with Ashley and swapped to Miranda once ME2 came out. I always liked Liara and LotSB made her much better imo, but I just can't get into that relationship with maleShep. I'd say I like Ashley and Miranda equally and adore Liara on my femSheps. If Liara was a human female she would probably be my romance option, but there are so many things wrong with the Asari I just can't roleplay it especially with a male human.

[CrutchCricket]

Heh, yeah Tali fans are...something else. Are Thane fans just as bad? Strange haven't heard much from them or about them. I'm pretty sure the Kaidan thread is a secret madhouse but at least they keep themselves under wraps.

Still don't understand what you mean by "on the merits" though.

strive: If you've got beef with the asari, you're not the only one (I don't but I know others do). But why does male/female matter?

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 16 janvier 2012 - 04:34 .

[jtav]

I mean that I loathe Garrus as a character because of his character and not because of fans.

[MACharlie1]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Heh, yeah Tali fans are...something else. Are Thane fans just as bad? Strange haven't heard much from them or about them. I'm pretty sure the Kaidan thread is a secret madhouse but at least they keep themselves under wraps.

Still don't understand what you mean by "on the merits" though.

Lets just say all ME character fans are equally bad in their own ways...and in someways they share.  

Oh....this is the Miranda thread. Whattayaknow. But yes...even the Miranda fans are psychobatsy as well. 

[flemm]

MACharlie1 wrote...
But yes...even the Miranda fans are psychobatsy as well. 

Well, had there been any doubt about that previously, I don't think there is anymore.

The leak has revealed us to be utterly batsh*t crazy.

I don't mean that in a bad way. But still

[Td1984]

For me it varies beyond my top 2. My top 2 are Miranda and Ash. Wrex is generally 3rd, but beyond that, it's inconsistent for me. Usually Zaeed, Grunt, Garrus and Kasumi in some order after that point.

[goofyomnivore]

But why does male/female matter?

Part of it is VA work. I think Hale/Hillis have great chemistry. Another part is the attraction to male side of species. They spent thousands of years being blue space lesbians. I can understand crossing into xenophillia, but they're doing that plus something even more alien to them. They have no concept of a 'male' in their culture. I just think they would be attracted to something similar to them if they did go grab a snag that isn't Asari. You could say they don't have a concept of a 'female' either, but they're x100 closer to female than male imo.

It to me isn't plausible. Like if Shepard was attracted to Legion or something.

Modifié par strive, 16 janvier 2012 - 04:56 .

[CrutchCricket]

"Psychobatsy" is inherently part of fandom. We are fans, therefore we are psychobatsy. That was never in doubt. But there are cases that go beyond, crank it to eleven then yank off the knob. I think we were talking more about those cases.

strive wrote...
Part of it is VA work. I think Hale/Hillis have great chemistry. Another part is the attraction to male side of species. They spent thousands of years being blue space lesbians. I can understand crossing into xenophillia, but they're doing that plus something even more alien to them. They have no concept of a 'male' in their culture. I just think they would be attracted to something similar to them if they did go grab a snag that isn't Asari. You could say they don't have a concept of a 'female' either, but they're x100 closer to female than male imo.

It just seems way to alien to me to be realistic. Like if Shepard was attracted to Legion or something.

Not exactly. They have no concept of gender at all. Male or female is just as "other" to them. The idea is fascinating but not really explored fully in Mass Effect. More to the point though, especially regarding your last bit, it's clear they don't require similarity to the same extent we do since we see them pairing with krogan and salarians. A krogan female would be more "other" than a human male wouldn't you say? Obviously at this point krogan females would only be mating with male krogan to get their numbers up but it might have happened before the Rebellions and the genophge. The point is that we are closer to the asari than the other races yet they mate with them just as easily. Ergo they do not require similarity the way we do.

Still interesting that you put this in terms of asari potentially being uncomfortable. Usually compaints against asari mating are more along the lines of us getting squicky:  "oh, they're aliens" or "oh they're not really female so what am I boning?". Then there's the whole cultural genocide paranoia. So thanks for an honestly refreshing viewpoint.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 16 janvier 2012 - 05:04 .

[goofyomnivore]

Not exactly. They have no concept of gender at all. Male or female is just as "other" to them.

I don't think they have any concept of it because there is no second gender that creates gender roles/conflicts. They're just Asari, but that doesn't mean they're not more similar to female or male. The Asari are presented as having many traits of the female gender from biology to culture.

A krogan female would be more "other" than a human male wouldn't you say?

Appearance wise yes, but do you think an Asari would understand a male as well as a female? A female Krogan isn't going to want to indulge in penetrative sex which is a completely alien concept to an Asari. That is just one of the concepts that would be extra weird for them to overcome when dating a male.

[android654]

At this point does it matter? The Asari have been mingling with other species since they met them. There are few forms of sex that would be alien to them, and of their track record influences their future, they're adventurous enough to try anything.

[MisterJB]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Then there's the whole cultural genocide paranoia.

You're only paranoid when you're wrong.

[Dr. Doctor]

While I like Liara, the Asari as a whole remind me of elves. Their powerful, long-lived, considered beautiful by other races, etc. While this is all well and good, the trope that Bioware usually will break out is some sort of cataclysm that occurs to races like this (like the war with Tevinter in the DA games).

As for Tali, her popularity confuses me. In ME1 she was our Quarian encylopedia and resident Mission Vao expy. There isn't really much to her character other than the fact that she's a Quarian. Alright her romance is sweet, but it seems rather one-sided Shepard doesn't really have a chance to express interest until Tali pretty much comes out and tells Shepard she loves him.

[CrutchCricket]

strive wrote...
I don't think they have any concept of it because there is no second gender that creates gender roles/conflicts. They're just Asari, but that doesn't mean they're not more similar to female or male. The Asari are presented as having many traits of the female gender from biology to culture.

Yes but again these similarites are to human females (and to some extent quarian). But we never see krogan, salarian or turnian females but I bet they'd have less in common physically and likely culturally as well. Still it is reasonable to assume these pairings still occur. Anyway this does lead nicely into the next point:

Appearance wise yes, but do you think an Asari would understand a male as well as a female? A female Krogan isn't going to want to indulge in penetrative sex which is a completely alien concept to an Asari. That is just one of the concepts that would be extra weird for them to overcome when dating a male.

I won't go too far into this so we can keep this safe for work. But penetrative sex=male only? Really? Seeing as how we're describing asari as practically blue space lesbians, I think some real lesbians might have a problem with that. Clearly they have a physical component to sex similar to ours so I would say it's a safe bet that they can... get themselves off in a similar manner.

All of this of course is ignoring my earlier point that similarity just isn't that high a priority for them.

MisterJB wrote...
You're only paranoid when you're wrong.

Therefore you are wrong? Seriously though I'd rather not start this again...

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Hmmmmmmm....... "This isn't right. How can we get emotionally attached when the galaxy is at stake?"

?

When did Miri say that?

[goofyomnivore]

At this point does it matter? The Asari have been mingling with other species since they met them. There are few forms of sex that would be alien to them, and of their track record influences their future, they're adventurous enough to try anything.

That is sorta the point. The Asari race doesn't make any goddamn sense. But look at Liara; pureblood and shy/inexperienced when approaching relationships the complete opposite of your stereotypical Asari. However she will knock boots with a human male who is completely alien to her. FemShep at least looks like her and has some biologic traits she can relate too.

I won't go too far into this so we can keep this safe for work. But penetrative sex=male only? Really? Seeing as how we're describing asari as practically blue space lesbians, I think some real lesbians might have a problem with that.

The Asari reproduce/sex./pleasure by 'melding' I guess they technically penetrate each others minds. There is no need for any biology down there other than for birth.

edit; This is kind of off topic don't want to get jtav's thread locked, so I'm going to try and quit discussing this. The Asari race is so confusing to me -- I just feel it makes more sense for me that femShep romances Liara and not maleShep. It is my own personal perception.

Modifié par strive, 16 janvier 2012 - 06:34 .

[wright1978]

Well of course Liara doesn't care about Shep's sexuality she just wants to get into his mind, cos she's got a thing for Protheans.

Agree with Crutch about fact human lesbians clearly don't just snuggle.

[schemata]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

While I like Liara, the Asari as a whole remind me of elves. Their powerful, long-lived, considered beautiful by other races, etc. While this is all well and good, the trope that Bioware usually will break out is some sort of cataclysm that occurs to races like this (like the war with Tevinter in the DA games).

As for Tali, her popularity confuses me. In ME1 she was our Quarian encylopedia and resident Mission Vao expy. There isn't really much to her character other than the fact that she's a Quarian. Alright her romance is sweet, but it seems rather one-sided Shepard doesn't really have a chance to express interest until Tali pretty much comes out and tells Shepard she loves him.

Theres a lot of haters out there for several races and characters. Im not big on hate.  I personally thought the asari were a very interesting concept.  how they take autosomes from the different races while leaving the sex chromosome. Or atleast it works in that way.. some way.  I do think that there basically living like humans do but for a much longer period is kind of a cop-out.  Generally were wild when were young just because we dont have responsibilities and dont really understand things yet, (however thinking we do.) But the asari arent mentally handicapped in some way, or have low intelligence. I guess Id just imagine greater variance in how they live.  But its really not that big a deal.

I for one, Love tali. Infact Im trying to decide between her and miri for my main LI for my first playthrough in me3. People generally peg her as just an encyclopedia in me1, but Im not so sure I thought of it that way.  From what I gathered not many people knew about the quarian culture or even the pilgrimage. So I could see why someone would want to lay out there history like that. clear the air.  Thing is liara was like that too, albeit slightly more distinct personality.(she spent a lot of time explaining the asari) Then again she was a LI in mass effect 1.

Most if not all the LI are tropes of some kind imo. Ash is all heart, liara is the intellectual connection, miri is the cocky but secretly flawed type. So not too much personality between them. (though I do feel miri stands on her own as a mutli dimensional character.) 

I liked tali just cause the dialogue was really sweet and came out of nowhere. that and its the only LI that isnt rushed, and you know where shes coming from. You two have been through a lot, and its the one LI that is explicit, instead of implicit. Like with miri your kinda of guessing where shep and her would connect. Add to that, hers is the one LM where regardless if were just friends or if Im going for the LI, I feel like they become much closer.  Anyway. Yeah. Love the me universe srsly.

[Ieldra]

Oh my. This is getting ridicuously long. I'll try and keep my answers short. Basically, I challenge your statement that sentiment can be an indicator of moral truth. All it can be is functional with regard to the functioning of a human community. Details:

[quote]schemata wrote...
No no noooo! Thats undercutting my entire arguement by stating it isn't rational, when the choice for a paragon isn't meant to be.  Para shep isn't some tactical strategist or something.[/quote]
I answer that in a situation where all intelligent life of the galaxy could be the price of a wrong decision, it is your moral obligation to use stragetic reasoning in favor of passion, if you value all intelligent life in the galaxy more than the principle that a single life has no price.

[quote]By saying " I value the life of a human being" you have "set" your belief to a standard.  By keeping the base your forgoing what had occured there, therefore nullifying your belief, or at the least compromising it. Thats not what paragon shep is about, and by extension, paragon miri. not at this point in the game anyway.[/quote]
No, that's not your belief if you act that way. Your belief is "the human life in front of you, the one you are making a decision about right now, is, always and unalterably, worth more consideration than any number of lives affected by your decision down the line". I would classify such an attitude as immoral on the principle of minimizing harm.

It is, admittedly, the principle upon which human morality is generally built - the good or evil right in front of you matters, everything else is mostly inconsequential. But that attitude stems from a time when humans lived in tribes, when you couldn't much affect anything out of your sight, when your decisions rarely had large-scale implications. In an advanced society, the ubiquitous application of such an attitude will likely result in its destruction.

And Paragon Miranda doesn't exist.

[quote]But if you keep that rational mindframe youll end up with no trees left, and no forrest and youll be the very thing you were trying to prevent. Hence the arguement: Adopting your enemies methods isnt defeating the enemy. Or bringing about a kind of self fufilling prophecy by making what sovergein said true from ME1[/quote]
Your conviction of this is based on nothing but passion and thus useless as an argument. Defeating the enemy, by definition, is rendering it unable to do damage to you anymore. How that changes yourself is a completely different matter, not at all connected to victory or defeat as such. 

Sovereign's statement is not a moral one. The Reapers desire that the organic species of the galaxy use the Citadel and the mass relays in order to maintain a better surveillance of their activities. That organics follow the Reapers' technology path is not evil or good, it's just useful for the Reapers. When the controlling agenda is gone, when the Reapers are defeated, there is nothing any more that distinguishes this path from any other. You can take it or not. If you use those parts of their technology that uses intelligent life as fuel you will most likely act immoral, but following their technology path doesn't pre-determine that you will do so. At least if you believe in any kind of free will. Which you do more than I do, I assume.      

[quote]Just because you arent able to articulate your reasons doesnt make you wrong, this isnt true and something logical/rational people fall into way too often.[/quote]
No, but that wasn't the point I was making. My point was that sentiment doesn't make anything true. A rational person, when confronted with not enough information, admits that she doesn't know.

[quote]have you ever been in a situation where something just didnt feel right? You might be able to articulate or rationalize your thoughts but still the feeling persists, that its "wrong."[/quote]
Yes, but as a rule I do not trust such feelings. I tend to disregard them. If you don't, you make yourself open to demagogues and manipulators, who have all too often gained power by appealing to "common sense" and people's moral passions. The history of my country (Germany) is a prime example. The n*zis gained power by appealing to the people's sense of community. Which is a moral sentiment.  

[quote]im positive youve been in a position where you could explain everything about it, while it still felt "wrong." and youd be right.[/quote]
The point is, I'd be wrong just as often. Which is why I wouldn't trust passion to rule me in wide-ranging decisions. See above for why. Our passions are not made for such decisions.

[quote]Reason isnt the only thing that guides us, we need emotions too.[/quote]
Yes. For interpersonal relationships and decisions about them. The greater reality is - has grown - too complex to be understood by short-wired brain mechanisms. If you make far-ranging decisions on the ground of sentiment, you're trying to use a stone axe to dismantle a starship.

[quote]in the CB case, paragon is def right.[/quote]
If you can't explain why, I am not required to take your argument seriously. Basically, you say "I know, and that's all you need to know". Well, it's not. Because *I* definitely do *not* know. 

[quote]So. I challenge you to follow the emotional consquences of keeping the base, and encapsulate how it makes both shep and miri "less" and discard your rational stance.[/quote]
I see no reason to not maintain my stance that to not take strategic considerations into account in this decision is stupid. Paragon Shepard has the luck of the gods, that's the only reason she succeeds.

[quote]all that rational thought and logically thinking, im sure you have nostradomus moments, I know your type[/quote]
We all have our moments of inspiration. I just don't deceive myself into believing intuitions are necessarily an indication of truth.

[/i][quote]I say guided by emotion, its what defines us and gives us spirit and empathy.[/quote]
Yes, but empathy is not the right tool for all situations. And passion misleads us more often than not.

[quote]When your feeling your most sturdy is when you should be weary the most. Ah see, you SHOULD have qualms. Because the CB isnt a rational choice to be made.[/quote]
It is not designed to be. But it should be. See above for why. What is your answer to that?

[quote]As I said earlier things can be right or wrong and have nothing to do with our ability to rationalize it.  If you value just a single human life your compromising yourself by keeping the base, because of the tradegy thats befallen it and the loss of human lifes. And your sacrificing your beliefs by letting this place to continue to exist.[/quote]
I value any human life (some less, admittedly). But I do not value it beyond the survival of the species. And those who are already dead do not matter for the future. I cannot bring them back. Any general in any war must think like this, or she would be unable to send soldiers into the field. Do you think the general acts immoral if she does so? The CB is more of the same. The only thing differentiating it that it evokes a feeling of disgust which transforms itself into a moral passion in some people.

[quote]Its a BETRAYAL[/quote]
Why? Again, you failed to make the point so far.

[quote]Now what if there is reaper tech that could help win the war? What happens when you continually follow their line of thought?  Whatever their purpose is, you may find yourself believing in that purpose as well.  Like I said you start sacrifcing trees to save the forrest, and before you know it, youll have nothing left of who you were. Cause you sold yourself out.[/quote]
Pfft. That's - I'm sorry to say - unadulterated bullsh*t. I want to analyze Reaper technology, to know how they function, what power they run on, what hardware their thought processes run on, how strong their shields are and why. Military intelligence. Do you think that the people analyzing the methods used to kill people in the n*zi concentration camps started to believe in the ideology? Because in essence, that's what you're saying. And that was far less important for the future than analyzing what makes the Reapers function.
[quote]our logical and rational thought is impressive. Ill give you that. But its not about that. Its not that X, could lead to Y. Its about what has already passed, what the CB is now, at the moment you decide its fate, not on some candyland you imagine it might be. Its about being true to your values, and the value of human life and respecting that and staying true to that, hence, destroying the base. Its not about the future, its about the right here and now and staying true to what you believe and not compromsing it for some tech trinkets.[/quote]
Maybe. My stance is that it should not be, that this decision should be about the future, because the future of all intelligent organic life is threatened. Your approach is delusional, misleading, and morally wrong from the perspective that morality ultimately has to serve the wellbeing of the community that adopts it. 

[quote]Its about not sacrifcing who you are for some quantifiable gain in the futurue.[/quote]
If you are not prepared to sacrifice what you are for future generations, when doing so could ensure that future and not doing so might destroy it, then you are selfish beyond all measure. You are sacrificing the life of intelligent life in the galaxy for the sake of a principle.

[quote]I believe it is tainted. And you sacrifice or suspend your beliefs to reap the tech advantage. Who you and miri are, is not worth that.[/quote]
Again, do not tell me what my beliefs are and what does or does not compromise them. I know quite well what does and what does not. And there's this:

A technology is not morally invalidated by having been used for an evil cause.[i]

[quote][i]Mass effect will be a story much larger than survival. Itll be about awareness. Perspective, and what you believe.  how can you not love someone whos willing to not sacrifice who they are in the face of adversity? That takes heart and balls and a brain. The trifecta that is shep.  Money.[/quote]
Pfft. I do not respect someone who is prepared to sacrifice intelligent life in the galaxy for the sake of a principle.

[quote]I do totally buy into this meme. Hands down. Like following their tech will open up new avenues of perspective and awareness and thought pattern.  Its iwild how much your perspective can change when your introduced to key pieces of information.[/quote]
There will be changes in perspective. What I challenge is the assumption that this will be necessarily bad.

[quote]Whoa, that doesnt seem to jive, Why would he destroy the heretics, being pro-tech non-traditionalist, anti taboo consequentialist??? Keeping the base would be sacrifcing what you believe in, abanonding who you are for the end means of survival. If you survive with no spirit left, why shouldnt you allow the reapers to cull who were are as we'll be nothing but shells of our former selves, theyll have their next generation of husks ready to go.[/quote]
Damn it, don'´t tell me what I believe and when I may or may not compromise it. Keeping the base is absolutely in line with my beliefs, and the galaxy's species will either profit from the knowledge therein or not, but if they survive the war they'll recover and rebuild with no essential part of them lost. And so will Shepard and Miranda. Changed, perhaps, but basically intact. 

I wonder if you'll want to pay the price for the Paragon endgame decision....

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 janvier 2012 - 07:04 .

[flemm]

Beware, schemata... debating the morality of the Collector Base choice is not to be taken lightly in this thread.

You have been warned

schemata wrote...
Theres a lot of haters out there for several races and characters. Im not big on hate.

Agreed. I have favorites, especially Miranda and Mordin. I also like Jack a lot. But, with pretty much everybody else, I can find something to enjoy, or something that is interesting.

Modifié par flemm, 16 janvier 2012 - 06:49 .

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...
Beware, schemata... debating the morality of the Collector Base choice is not to be taken lightly in this thread.
You have been warned

This has become more a debate about meta-ethics, actually. Sorry for the thread derailment, but you know I can't keep silent about this.

I'll give you pensive Miranda as an apology

[goofyomnivore]

Holy crap Ieldra you made my Firefox lag with that response.

[naledgeborn]

This is simple. If destroying the Collector Base is a Paragon option so should be the destruction of the Genophage cure.

When Shepard voices his disapproval at using a "tainted" cure to help the krogan race, Mordin counters with the logic that if the cure is destroyed the lives expended to make it was for nothing.

That same logic can be applied to the Collector Base dilemma. Not using it to combat the Reapers ensures that all the colonists who lost lives to the Collector's twisted experiments were for nothing. Never mind the tactical disadvantage, this in itself is an act of selfishness.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

This has become more a debate about meta-ethics, actually. Sorry for the thread derailment, but you know I can't keep silent about this.

True. And, yes, I know

Still, I felt a... "heads up" was in order