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[Ieldra]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

Hmmmmmmm....... "This isn't right. How can we get emotionally attached when the galaxy is at stake?"

When did Miri say that?

Not quite the same words:

"This is no time for emotional entanglements. You and I know more about the Collectors than anyone. We know how unlikely it is that we're coming back alive!"

Second romance conversation (the one with the promise)

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Oh, well I know that Scene left to right, Especially that Line. Everyone knows that. So why did that picture a couple of pages back say it as if it was a completely different line? Could it have been a line from an old draft of the script?

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 16 janvier 2012 - 07:02 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
If you don't spell things out now, we'll not be able to say if you're been right or wrong when the time comes. So....speak out.

I've thought about it, but data is limited, conclusions uncertain. Not trying to be all enigmatic for the sake of it, though, so, if you're interested, I will PM you.

[CrutchCricket]

Heh. I give solid points to schemata for trying, but the outcome is predictable. He doesn't have the argumentative skills to go toe to toe with Ieldra. Either that or he's not using them, preferring to go the emotional route. Dead end I'm afraid.
Anyway Ieldra, don't know if you've had the chance to go through back posts but I was wondering what your reasons were for destroying the Heretics.

[schemata]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Heh. I give solid points to schemata for trying, but the outcome is predictable. He doesn't have the argumentative skills to go toe to toe with Ieldra. Either that or he's not using them, preferring to go the emotional route. Dead end I'm afraid.
Anyway Ieldra, don't know if you've had the chance to go through back posts but I was wondering what your reasons were for destroying the Heretics.

lack of skills I suppose. I still think I have a point in there somewhere. or I might have had one. At some point.  Might give it one more go before I official declare myself out of the running.

[flemm]

schemata wrote...
lack of skills I suppose. I still think I have a point in there somewhere. or I might have had one. At some point.  Might give it one more go before I official declare myself out of the running.

Not necessarily. This is a topic that has been... thoroughly debated on many previous occasions, so joining in at this point is like attacking a heavily fortified position.

Even if you are really, really good, you are at a disadvantage

Modifié par flemm, 16 janvier 2012 - 08:08 .

[MisterJB]

naledgeborn wrote...
That same logic can be applied to the Collector Base dilemma. Not using it to combat the Reapers ensures that all the colonists who lost lives to the Collector's twisted experiments were for nothing. Never mind the tactical disadvantage, this in itself is an act of selfishness.

I don't agree with the logic Paragon Shepard uses to destroy the base. It's why I, after destroying the Base, always pick the Neutral option in the confrontantion with Jack Harper. "You get the help that you deserve".
Destroying the base could be seen as an act of selfishness. Keeping it might prevent something like this from ever happening again:


Or it could be seen as an act of selflessness where Shepard is willing to let himself be haunted by the souls of all humans who died there to destroy the Base, thus keeping it from the hands of Jack Harper who would do unsavory things with it.


Of course, there are those who would claim that any knowledge that can be extracted from that Base justifies whatever else Jack Harper decides to do with, no matter how scarce it might be.
There is value to this argument. The Reapers are not planning on sparing anyone. Certainly not the scientists that Jack Harper fed to the Adjuntants.
And yet...



What if destroying the base could save them?

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 janvier 2012 - 07:24 .

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Anyway Ieldra, don't know if you've had the chance to go through back posts but I was wondering what your reasons were for destroying the Heretics.

Yes, I almost forgot that. This is a decision where I don't have any strong opinions about what is the best one. I chose to act from the position that the risk of overlooking remnants of Reaper programming in the surviving Heretics was too great, because given the way geth share information that would inevitably contaminate all other geth after the geth took the Heretics in again. Organics in the same situation wouldn't pose the same risk.

For the same reason, I would not include any geth in a Reaper technology research team.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 janvier 2012 - 07:46 .

[android654]

strive wrote...
That is sorta the point. The Asari race doesn't make any goddamn sense. But look at Liara; pureblood and shy/inexperienced when approaching relationships the complete opposite of your stereotypical Asari. However she will knock boots with a human male who is completely alien to her. FemShep at least looks like her and has some biologic traits she can relate too.

Well, being completely honest here, gamers by and large aren't the most confident lot. With that in mind, who to appeal to the majority of the audience more than a shy booksih girl who's overwhelmingly interested in the main character? I don't think that was an intentional break in continuity, but rather a need to find a LI that would be most appealing to them. Its also the reason why Tali went from being a normal kid in ME1 into a bumbling fan with a god obsession in ME2.

Bringing the conversation back on topic, I think the lack of admiration that Jack and Miranda have for Shepard is what make them more appealing and standout over the other characters.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

MisterJB wrote...

Ugh. That part always gets me every time. I remember playing the SM for the very first time: I foolishly followed the Strategy Guide and I activated Legion along with helping him in his LM....after the crew was abducted. As a result, Yeoman Kelly Chambers was liquefied. Hell I think that's the Yeoman right there lol.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 16 janvier 2012 - 08:10 .

[Dr. Doctor]

What I'm sort of hoping for is the option to have Shepard sympathize with Cerberus' ideals. Not everyone in the organization is like TIM, Kai Leng, or Colonel Ashe and I want that distinction to be in the game:

Joker: Passive sensors are picking up a cruiser a thousand kay out. IFF is registering it as the CNS Damascus.

Shepard: Any sign of an escort?

Joker: Doesn't look like it Commander. Should we keep running recon on it?

Shepard: No, this is the first ship we've seen in weeks that isn't defended. Have EDI prime the cyberwarfare suites we're boarding this one.

Vega: Is this going to be a "let god sort them out" sort of mission?

Shepard: Not this time, Cerberus might have some real bastards in their ranks but they're not all like that. I've known some good people who worked for them, and I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt. We get in, secure the ship, and capture whoever we can.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
Yes, I almost forgot that. This is a decision where I don't have any strong opinions about what is the best one. I chose to act from the position that the risk of overlooking remnants of Reaper programming in the surviving Heretics was too great, because given the way geth share information that would inevitably contaminate all other geth after the geth took the Heretics in again. Organics in the same situation wouldn't pose the same risk.

For the same reason, I would not include any geth in a Reaper technology research team.

Hmm. Is it ever explicitly stated that the Reapers directly modified the programming of the Heretics? The Heretics diverged over a difference in logic and worshipped the Reapers as gods. Indoctrination is only effective against organics so it'd have to be direct tampering. I don't think it likely the Reapers would bother tinkering with the Heretics since they only viewed them as tools and they were already fanantical in their service (or as fanatical as geth get). Chances are further decreased since Legion adapted the virus and he should've spotted and reported any anomalies. But no way to know for sure....

Never thought of it that way. Man I hope this isn't a decision they invalidate in ME3 to keep geth as enemies.

"Oh you saved the Heretics? Guess what they brainwashed the true geth now they're all against you!"

"You blew'em up? Tough luck, now the true geth are pissed and/or [insert innane contrivance here] and they're all against you!"

...<_<

[Ieldra]

Well, I said my opinion wasn't that well grounded. If you could apply human-like morality to the situation then I'd destroy them, too, because most people would rather be dead than reprogrammed to have their deepest beliefs reversed.

I wonder what Miranda would make of the situation. On that, too, I have no particularly convincing reasoning.

And yeah, I hope we won't get railroaded into anything that makes this decision irrelevant. Though its impact will be very limited I think.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 janvier 2012 - 08:50 .

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I wonder what Miranda would make of the situation. On that, too, I have no particularly convincing reasoning.

"Semantics. Either way, the geth are no longer a problem. However, Legion's geth might still become a problem. It might be safer to simply destroy them."

Miranda always errs on the side of caution.

[naledgeborn]

CrutchCricket wrote...


Never thought of it that way. Man I hope this isn't a decision they invalidate in ME3 to keep geth as enemies.

"Oh you saved the Heretics? Guess what they brainwashed the true geth now they're all against you!"

"You blew'em up? Tough luck, now the true geth are pissed and/or [insert innane contrivance here] and they're all against you!"

...<_<

It is. 

[AgitatedLemon]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

Oh, well I know that Scene left to right, Especially that Line. Everyone knows that. So why did that picture a couple of pages back say it as if it was a completely different line? Could it have been a line from an old draft of the script?

I think that person who posted the image just got the quote wrong.

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...

"Semantics. Either way, the geth are no longer a problem. However, Legion's geth might still become a problem. It might be safer to simply destroy them."

Wait. As I recall, the choice is: reprogram the heretics, but risk them contaminating the rest of the Geth; or eliminate the heretics, but thereby potentially weaken the Geth relative to what their strength would have been, if the heretics had been successfully reprogrammed. Is that right?

If so, I recall thinking that Miranda would definitely opt for destroying the heretics, as she usually attempts to eliminate risk. If you choose to reprogram, you might gain additional forces for the Geth, but you might lose your ally AND allow the heretics to survive.

If you don't reprogram, there is no such risk, you are guaranteed to destroy a faction allied with the Reapers and you are protecting the one already allied with you.

Modifié par flemm, 16 janvier 2012 - 09:00 .

[AgitatedLemon]

flemm wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

"Semantics. Either way, the geth are no longer a problem. However, Legion's geth might still become a problem. It might be safer to simply destroy them."

Wait. As I recall, the choice is: reprogram the heretics, but risk them contaminating the rest of the Geth; or eliminate the heretics, but thereby potentially weaken the Geth relative to what their strength would have been, if the heretics had been successfully reprogrammed. Is that right?

If so, I recall thinking that Miranda would definitely opt for destroying the heretics, as she usually attempts to eliminate risk. If you choose to reprogram, you might gain additional forces for the Geth, but you might lose your ally AND allow the heretics to survive.

If you don't reprogram, there is no such risk, you are guaranteed to destroy a faction allied with the Reapers and you are protecting the one already allied with you.

Doesn't Legion state that the repurposed virus eliminates the heretic "impulse" (for lack of a better word) to follow the Reapers, and essentially undo the brainwashing?


If that's the case then the only potential threat Legion's geth would be is if they all of a sudden turned hostile.

[flemm]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Doesn't Legion state that the repurposed virus eliminates the heretic "impulse" (for lack of a better word) to follow the Reapers, and essentially undo the brainwashing?


If that's the case then the only potential threat Legion's geth would be is if they all of a sudden turned hostile.

As I recall, he states (somewhere earlier in the mission, I think) that there is a chance that re-integrating the heretics might alter the rest of the Geth. So, it is more of a gamble.

One choice is basically: hold the money you have already won. The other is: double or nothing.

Modifié par flemm, 16 janvier 2012 - 09:05 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

And I don't like Cerberus's Experiments.

Was Cerberus ALWAYS like that? TIM founded Cerberus right?

What is Miri's view on Cerberus? In other words, what is Miri's Cerberus, her vision of Cerberus? What would Cerberus be if she were in Charge? Surely not horrid experiments.

[AgitatedLemon]

flemm wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Doesn't Legion state that the repurposed virus eliminates the heretic "impulse" (for lack of a better word) to follow the Reapers, and essentially undo the brainwashing?


If that's the case then the only potential threat Legion's geth would be is if they all of a sudden turned hostile.

As I recall, he states (somewhere earlier in the mission, I think) that there is a chance that re-integrating the heretics might alter the rest of the Geth. So, it is more of a gamble.

One choice is basically: hold the money you have already won. The other is: double or nothing.

Wasn't it like <1% chance of failing?

[Sebby]

The Heretics voluntarily joined the Reapers. It wasn't due to "brainwashing".

[flemm]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Wasn't it like <1% chance of failing?

Not really sure, tbh, on that detail.

Seboist wrote...

The Heretics voluntarily joined the Reapers. It wasn't due to "brainwashing".

Right, yeah, which is why the choice has a moral component, it's you who are doing the brainwashing, in a sense.

Modifié par flemm, 16 janvier 2012 - 09:08 .

[schemata]

Thought I'd chime in, through conversations with legion throughout the LM the choice is eventually framed as; you can rewrite the heretics, with certainty that it will work. They will then destroy the virus, and from that base or platform it will pulse out the new configuration so each time a heretic is within range its believe will go from 1+2=3 to 1+1=2 or something of that nature. and then those geth with their different experiences will then assimiliate and become part of legions geth once more, but now theyll have an added perspective. Whereas destroying the heretics the geth wont get the additional experiences/outlook of the heretics. (They wont get the programming that would follow the reapers, merely their viewpoint so they will be able to understand several different aspects of the heretics, how the geth eventually had a schism of believe, their experiences, yada yada)

[Ieldra]

AgitatedLemon wrote...
Wasn't it like <1% chance of failing?

No number is given. Legion says "There is a non-zero probability of failure". But that's not saying much, because there always is a non-zero probability of failure for anything.

@schemata:
Legion does not say the outcome is certain. But neither do they say the risk of failure is significant. Basically, you're free to make of the situation what you want. Obviously, since "the difference between geth is perspective" (Legion), having geth who understand the Heretics viewpoint would be desirable, but only if there is little or no risk of the geth adopting it in the end. From the perspective of both organics and the majority of the geth who value self-determination independent from the Reapers, the latter consideration would likely be dominant.

@MisterJB, flemm:
I agree that Miranda would rather err on the side of caution and destroy them.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 janvier 2012 - 09:18 .