82210 réponses à ce sujet

[MisterJB]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

I don't know about any of you, but I'm glad that I'm one of the few people who doesn't want Miri to be cruel. What kind of fanbase is that?<_<

I challenge you to find a single post on the previous page where someone advocated for Miranda to be cruel.

If I wanted to romance someone who gets squeamish at the first sight of doing something that is not politically correct, I would go for Tali.
Alright Tali, you want your homeworld back. I can understand that. But you don't believes the geth can be negotiated with, you don't want a war with them but you also call SpaceMorrigan crazy for wanting to rewrite them.
What exactly do you want to do, then?

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 janvier 2012 - 09:40 .

[AgitatedLemon]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

I don't know about any of you, but I'm glad that I'm one of the few people who doesn't want Miri to be cruel. What kind of fanbase is that?<_<

I don't want her to be cruel either. I doubt she would really even be cruel of she led Cerberus.

She'd still be determined and steadfast as she is, but not ruthless and cruel.

[jtav]

@Doctor

The problem is that Cerberus is, well, stupid. I have no doubt that Jack has greater raw biotic power than Kaidan, but Kaidan has also done more with his biotics to defend humanity. And Jack's many issues are an entirely foreseeable consequence of her treatment on Pragia. Akuze accomplished nothing that we know about. Etc.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

I'm not saying I want Miri to be weak. I'm saying that I don't want her to be ruthless in a dark, cruel, and evil way.

[AgitatedLemon]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

I'm not saying I want Miri to be weak. I'm saying that I don't want her to be ruthless in a dark, cruel, and evil way.

@bold

I don't think anyone was supporting this.

I know I don't.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

I don't want Miri to be one of those people who tortures someone for answers.

[Avy DiSartori]

I've always found Miranda's moral ambiguity quite acttractive... far from "evil' however.. it´s more like very pragmatic

[Ryzaki]

I'd rather have a less ruthless Miranda myself.

At least towards people who've done nothing to deserve it.

Now ruthless towards people that deserve it? Oh heck yes.

But if she starts pulling an Akuze or Teltin my Shep will take her out himself.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 16 janvier 2012 - 09:45 .

[jtav]

I think she already is, at least by implication. "Interrogation is sometimes necessary, but this is just pointless cruelty." They won't come right out and say it for the benefit of posters like you, but Miranda Lawson is not a very nice woman.

[Collider]

Being ruthless and mustache-twirling evil (ignoring that Miranda doesn't have a mustache) are two different things. The latter often undermines the former.

[Ryzaki]

jtav wrote...

I think she already is, at least by implication. "Interrogation is sometimes necessary, but this is just pointless cruelty." They won't come right out and say it for the benefit of posters like you, but Miranda Lawson is not a very nice woman.

Posters like me? 

What's that supposed to mean? 

[MisterJB]

jtav wrote...

I think she already is, at least by implication. "Interrogation is sometimes necessary, but this is just pointless cruelty." They won't come right out and say it for the benefit of posters like you, but Miranda Lawson is not a very nice woman.

Not to mention Veetor. Thecnically, he was not tortured but, like Miranda says: "We didn't have time to be gentle."

[AgitatedLemon]

Collider wrote...

Being ruthless and mustache-twirling evil (ignoring that Miranda doesn't have a mustache) are two different things. The latter often undermines the former.

"Ruthless" and "evil" are synonymous with each other.

Unless Merriam-Webster is lying to me.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 16 janvier 2012 - 09:49 .

[jtav]

Ryzaki wrote...

jtav wrote...

I think she already is, at least by implication. "Interrogation is sometimes necessary, but this is just pointless cruelty." They won't come right out and say it for the benefit of posters like you, but Miranda Lawson is not a very nice woman.

Posters like me? 

What's that supposed to mean? 

That I'm a very slow typist who was addressing MEfan.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

You're saying this to someone who's mostly Paragon. I support neither the Alliance, nor Cerberus ( unless there's something that can be done to fix Cerberus for the Better), that's why I Love seeing Miri Resign every time.

If Miri were to be ruthless, it has to be towards people who deserve it.
Like towards Enyala, I supported Miri kicking her ass. And I support Miri kicking her father's and Leng's ass.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 16 janvier 2012 - 09:50 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
 "Interrogation is sometimes necessary, but this is just pointless cruelty."

Well, we've discussed it before, but torture would likely be distasteful to Miranda because it is cruel and ineffective. I'm somewhat open to the idea that she would put the emphasis on the "ineffective" part, at least in certain situations, but it's a stretch to turn "interrogation is sometimes necessary" into "torture is sometimes necessary."

There are many interrogation methods that don't involve torture, and that are more effective than torture. She would be likely to know that, hence the bit of dialog that we have.

Modifié par flemm, 16 janvier 2012 - 09:53 .

[Ryzaki]

jtav wrote...
That I'm a very slow typist who was addressing MEfan.

Her comment about Veetor made me alittle bleh. But I find that whole decision train utterly disgusting and pointless so whatever.

[AgitatedLemon]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

You're saying this to someone who's mostly Paragon. I support neither the Alliance, nor Cerberus ( unless there's something that can be done to fix Cerberus for the Better), that's why I Love seeing Miri Resign every time.

If Miri were to be ruthless, it has to be towards people who deserve it.
Like towards Enyala, I supported Miri kicking her ass. And I support Miri kicking her father's and Leng's ass.

@bold

This.

[MisterJB]

flemm wrote...
Well, we've discussed it before, but torture would likely be distasteful to Miranda because it is cruel and ineffective. I'm somewhat open to the idea that she would put the emphasis on the "ineffective" part, at least in certain situations, but it's a stretch to turn "interrogation is sometimes necessary" into "torture is sometimes necessary." 

However, calling it "pointless cruelty" suggests that she would accept cruel methods as long as it served a purpose.
For example, putting a control chip in someone's brain could be seen as cruelty. However, she did not want to do so because she wanted a personal slave, it was for the greater good.

Modifié par MisterJB, 16 janvier 2012 - 09:56 .

[Dr. Doctor]

jtav wrote...

@Doctor

The problem is that Cerberus is, well, stupid. I have no doubt that Jack has greater raw biotic power than Kaidan, but Kaidan has also done more with his biotics to defend humanity. And Jack's many issues are an entirely foreseeable consequence of her treatment on Pragia. Akuze accomplished nothing that we know about. Etc.

The majority of Cerberus that we have seen rivals Aperture Science in incompetence. What differentiates Miranda from other Cerberus scientists we've met is that while she's willing to use extreme methods, their usually a last resort. The fact that resorting to unethical or extreme measures is one of the first things that most cells do makes me wonder how the heck TIM does his recruiting.

[Collider]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Collider wrote...

Being ruthless and mustache-twirling evil (ignoring that Miranda doesn't have a mustache) are two different things. The latter often undermines the former.

"Ruthless" and "evil" are synonymous with each other.

Unless Merriam-Webster is lying to me.

You can look at it this way:

Ruthless: Interrogating an unstable person for the ultimate and practical goal of learning more about the Collectors - and thereby saving more lives.
"Evil": Subjecting someone to physical/mental torture for sadistic or vengeful pleasure.

[AgitatedLemon]

Collider wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Collider wrote...

Being ruthless and mustache-twirling evil (ignoring that Miranda doesn't have a mustache) are two different things. The latter often undermines the former.

"Ruthless" and "evil" are synonymous with each other.

Unless Merriam-Webster is lying to me.

You can look at it this way:

Ruthless: Interrogating an unstable person for the ultimate and practical goal of learning more about the Collectors - and thereby saving more lives.
"Evil": Subjecting someone to physical/mental torture for sadistic or vengeful pleasure.

1. Interrogation isn't "ruthless", unless you're doing something similar to Thane's loyalty mission and hitting every renegade interrupt.

2. You're ignoring the meaning of the word "ruthless".

[Ieldra]

schemata wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well, I said my opinion wasn't that well grounded. If you could apply human-like morality to the situation then I'd destroy them, too, because most people would rather be dead than reprogrammed to have their deepest beliefs reversed.

I wonder what Miranda would make of the situation. On that, too, I have no particularly convincing reasoning.

And yeah, I hope we won't get railroaded into anything that makes this decision irrelevant. Though its impact will be very limited I think.

Youd rather destroy them and wipe them from existence then change their beliefs? Why?

I said if you could apply human morality. Would you rather be dead or brainwashed into believing the exact opposite of what you currently believe?

Edit:
Pre-empted by naledgeborn. Yep, the decision should have been flipped around.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 janvier 2012 - 10:07 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
And the leak makes it absolutely necessary for her to have considerable knowledge of other cells as well. I imagine she is quite capable of the horrific, should the situation call for it. What she is not capable of is the callous stupidity of something like Teltin.

The leak makes it necessary indeed. Which is rather interesting. I am not confident, however, that the writers really thought about the implications of this for Miranda's ethics.