82210 réponses à ce sujet

[Collider]

1. Interrogation isn't "ruthless", unless you're doing something similar to Thane's loyalty mission and hitting every renegade interrupt.

This was a reference to turning Veetor over to Cerberus. They apparently drug him and subject him to pressures that basically make his condition even worse. The effects can be seen when you meet Veetor again in Tali's loyalty mission, I believe.

2. You're ignoring the meaning of the word "ruthless".

 
http://www.merriam-w...ionary/ruthless

Included here is "merciless" and "having no pity."

In many cases that can be said to be Garrus' stance on criminals, excepting Shepard making him "paragon" at least.
Or the interrogation techniques employed by Cerberus.

Also included in the link's definition is "cruel." I suppose you can say that cruel necessarily means evil, in which case pragmatist might be a better description of Miranda if you have to be particular.

Modifié par Collider, 16 janvier 2012 - 10:16 .

[jtav]

Oh, I don't think they thought about it either. I also don't think they thought about what making her biotic does to their timeline, but you and I have certainly done interesting things with that haven't we?

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Miranda's vision of Cerberus? The advancement of humanity yes. That was TIM's vision as well. The trouble is that he had a habit of disregarding actual humans even when it wasn't necessary to achieve his goals. Too much of Cerberus was cruelty for cruelty's sake. I expect a more moral Cerberus from her, where murder, torture, and the like are the instruments of last resort rather than first resort.

jtav wrote...
Yeah, ruthless is good. I'm drowning in romance options that are on the side of the angels. I don't need another one.

Just quoting this for truth. A somewhat ruthless LI is refreshing. Any black ops organization must be prepared to do the dirty jobs, but any organization with any kind of ethics whatsoever will limit them as much as possible. Even more to the point, any intelligent organization with little ethics but concern for its reputation among those who know will also try to limit them.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Oh, I don't think they thought about it either. I also don't think they thought about what making her biotic does to their timeline, but you and I have certainly done interesting things with that haven't we?

Definitely. I just hope that the next oversight will provide opportunities to creative solutions as well, instead of making it necessary to believe in some character-exchanging event. 

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...
 "Interrogation is sometimes necessary, but this is just pointless cruelty."

Well, we've discussed it before, but torture would likely be distasteful to Miranda because it is cruel and ineffective. I'm somewhat open to the idea that she would put the emphasis on the "ineffective" part, at least in certain situations, but it's a stretch to turn "interrogation is sometimes necessary" into "torture is sometimes necessary."

There are many interrogation methods that don't involve torture, and that are more effective than torture. She would be likely to know that, hence the bit of dialog that we have.

I'm convinced Miranda would use something like truth drugs if necessary.

And we could substitute "ruthless" with "pragmatic", if too many people associate the former with "evil". I think there are limits to what Miranda would do, but as jtav already said, in her professional capacity she is not a nice woman.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 16 janvier 2012 - 10:24 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

flemm wrote...

jtav wrote...
 "Interrogation is sometimes necessary, but this is just pointless cruelty."

Well, we've discussed it before, but torture would likely be distasteful to Miranda because it is cruel and ineffective. I'm somewhat open to the idea that she would put the emphasis on the "ineffective" part, at least in certain situations, but it's a stretch to turn "interrogation is sometimes necessary" into "torture is sometimes necessary."

There are many interrogation methods that don't involve torture, and that are more effective than torture. She would be likely to know that, hence the bit of dialog that we have.

I'm convinced Miranda would use something like truth drugs if necessary.

And we could substitute "ruthless" with "pragmatic", if too many people associate the former with "evil". I think there are limits to what Miranda would do, but as jtav already said, in her professional capacity she is not a nice woman.

I can't really say much other than "I agree".

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...
However, calling it "pointless cruelty" suggests that she would accept cruel methods as long as it served a purpose.

I don't think we can actually reach that conclusion from that single statement. She may disapprove of both the cruelty and the pointlessness (based on that particular line of dialog). In fact, I imagine she does. However, I also imagine that she is capable of a certain amount of cruelty if she is convinced it is absolutely necessary for, as you say, the greater good.

I like a character who can live in that space where there is a struggle with what is truly necessary and moral in extreme situations.

Modifié par flemm, 16 janvier 2012 - 10:46 .

[ThomGau]

flemm wrote...

I like a character who can live in that space where there is a struggle with what is truly necessary and moral in extreme situations.

This is why I love this character so much . Neither black nor white, grey .

[jtav]

And you do realize that much of my rhetoric is dedicated towards keeping her in that space instead of turning her fully white, which is my worst fear, because I would be forced to discard that Miranda.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

And you do realize that much of my rhetoric is dedicated towards keeping her in that space instead of turning her fully white, which is my worst fear...

Yes, I absolutely understand that.

Modifié par flemm, 16 janvier 2012 - 11:01 .

[ThomGau]

I wouldn't appreciate that BW fully paragonize her either jtav ( or make her too much emotional => leak? ) .
There is a few characters like her and I don't want them to mess it up .

Modifié par ThomGau, 16 janvier 2012 - 11:03 .

[AgitatedLemon]

flemm wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
However, calling it "pointless cruelty" suggests that she would accept cruel methods as long as it served a purpose.

I don't think we can actually reach that conclusion from that single statement. She may disapprove of both the cruelty and the pointlessness (based on that particular line of dialog). In fact, I imagine she does. However, I also imagine that she is capable of a certain amount of cruelty if she is convinced it is absolutely necessary for, as you say, the greater good.

I like a character who can live in that space where there is a struggle with what is truly necessary and moral in extreme situations.

@ bold-

Fully agree. Actually, this got me thinking of one of her romance dialogues, after Shepard tells her he doesn't trust Cerberus (For the millionth and a half time).

"All the time, yes...."

I could very easily see her stepping over moral lines (Even some she set herself), but only really if it's utterly necessary.

[AgitatedLemon]

ThomGau wrote...

I wouldn't appreciate that BW fully paragonize her either jtav ( or make her too much emotional => leak? ) .
There is a few characters like her and I don't want them to mess it up .

I actually wouldn't mind if they "paragonize" her a little bit in ME3 (Nothing too extreme, mind you, but a little bit) to show her growth as a character.

Same with her showing more emotion. Given her line of work and past history, she's had very little opportunity to "vent", so to say.

[wright1978]

I think Miranda is a lot more cautious than TIM. That's part of the reason i think she'd bee much better in charge of the organisation. TIM is completely idiotic at times. With Miranda TIW or as i personally want part of a new triumvirate that includes Shepherd Cerberus could do things that are ruthless but necessary, rather than costly and reckless.

[flemm]

wright1978 wrote...

I think Miranda is a lot more cautious than TIM. That's part of the reason i think she'd bee much better in charge of the organisation. TIM is completely idiotic at times. With Miranda TIW or as i personally want part of a new triumvirate that includes Shepherd Cerberus could do things that are ruthless but necessary, rather than costly and reckless.

Well put imo. Miranda is very risk-adverse, while TIM seems to encourage many of his cells to be as reckless as possible in the off-chance that something good will happen.

Modifié par flemm, 16 janvier 2012 - 11:20 .

[android654]

There's something to be said in defense of the anti-hero or the cruel individual who has a reason to her coldness. Sometimes the noble path is less traveled because the path of doing things of importance is very narrow. It's no secret that Miranda is more "renegade" than not, but its mostly because the circumstances call for it. If she could preserve the "future of humanity" in a more humane fashion and it would yield the same results I'm sure she would. However, those aren't the rules everyone else is playing by, so she needs to even the odds in order to have a chance at success.

Cruelty implies some personal investment in the cruel acts. Miranda's "cruelty" stems from calculated necessity.

[AgitatedLemon]

android654 wrote...

There's something to be said in defense of the anti-hero or the cruel individual who has a reason to her coldness. Sometimes the noble path is less traveled because the path of doing things of importance is very narrow. It's no secret that Miranda is more "renegade" than not, but its mostly because the circumstances call for it. If she could preserve the "future of humanity" in a more humane fashion and it would yield the same results I'm sure she would. However, those aren't the rules everyone else is playing by, so she needs to even the odds in order to have a chance at success.

Cruelty implies some personal investment in the cruel acts. Miranda's "cruelty" stems from calculated necessity.

I don't think anyone was disputing this.

[ThomGau]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

I actually wouldn't mind if they "paragonize" her a little bit in ME3 (Nothing too extreme, mind you, but a little bit) to show her growth as a character.

Same with her showing more emotion. Given her line of work and past history, she's had very little opportunity to "vent", so to say.

I agree with you

Making her more emotional would indeed show some character development especially if she spoke to her sister and if she loves Shepard .
Nonetheless she also needs to remain the character who is focused on the mission and ready to use expeditive methods if necessary .

A delicat balance between these two aspects .

[AgitatedLemon]

ThomGau wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

I actually wouldn't mind if they "paragonize" her a little bit in ME3 (Nothing too extreme, mind you, but a little bit) to show her growth as a character.

Same with her showing more emotion. Given her line of work and past history, she's had very little opportunity to "vent", so to say.

I agree with you

Making her more emotional would indeed show some character development especially if she spoke to her sister and if she loves Shepard .
Nonetheless she also needs to remain the character who is focused on the mission and ready to use expeditive methods if necessary .

A delicat balance between these two aspects .

@bold That's what I was directing it towards.


@bold #2  I'm cautious to see if BioWare can do that.

[flemm]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

I don't think anyone was disputing this.

Well, maybe not, but nobody had articulated that precise argument previously either

Especially the question of "personal investment" as a defining characteristic of cruelty.

Hmmmm, not really sure what I think about that, tbh. Could be. Animals are not cruel, I guess for the most part, since they are just operating on instinct.

Modifié par flemm, 16 janvier 2012 - 11:30 .

[jtav]

I prefer she not show more emotion, actually. She's quite emotional in ME2. I like her current state.

I have the sinking feeling that I'm either going to want to slit Oriana's throat or have her replace Miranda entirely. I do not trust the team to get Miranda's emotional balance right in the slightest.

[AgitatedLemon]

flemm wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

I don't think anyone was disputing this.

Well, maybe not, but nobody had articulated that precise argument previously either

Especially the question of "personal investment" as a defining characteristic of cruelty.

Hmmmm, not really sure what I think about that, tbh. Could be. Animals are not cruel, I guess for the most part, since they are just operating on instinct.

Animals also aren't sentient (Or was it sapient? Whatever that word is)

@jtav, well, that's your opinion, and you;re entitled to it.

I stick by mine.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 16 janvier 2012 - 11:34 .

[ThomGau]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

I'm cautious to see if BioWare can do that.

Will see if they are good writers or not

[AgitatedLemon]

jreezy wrote...

android654 wrote...
Miranda's "cruelty" stems from calculated necessity.

So does TIM's and people call that evil. 

TIM actually holds a fair sense of general douchiness, what with Evolution.

It's not all calculated necessity.