82210 réponses à ce sujet

[android654]

If we're talking in terms of personal work, length of commitment, and dedication I think she could be better than most Shepards.

But if your equals, then its a bit worse, because not only would you be replacing her with someone she might see as being beneath her but you also call her judgement into question because she was apparently wrong about Shepard. I don't need to remind you how much Miranda values her judgement.

Modifié par android654, 17 janvier 2012 - 09:37 .

[AgitatedLemon]

What do you mean by person work? Anyway, she definitely beats Shepard in terms of commitment length, but Shepard is pretty damn dedicated. Not necessarily more so than her, but close to her level.

And by "equals" I was talking about head-canon and her official rank.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 17 janvier 2012 - 09:36 .

[Ieldra]

android654 wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Can you tell me? the only love triangle I've started was Miranda (romanced) then Tali (Told me to break up with Miranda).

The line IIRC is "everyone needs to know that you're mine" while I understand that Miranda can be blunt at times, this is a little too much.

I thought it was fitting it spoke to the core of the character. It was forceful, possessive and intended to be intimidating. She invested emotion and time into Shepard, and to play second chair is not something she would take lightly. In fact I'd go so far as  saying that Miranda wouldn't let someone go or be "done" with them until she decided so.

To think that Shepard could appeal to her, someone with a grand image of herself, and also be interested in Jack --A mad person in her view who has many problems to the point of being the epitome of defunct-- or Tali --Someone she probably considers insignififcant or of very little consequence to their work-- might be quite the insult.

So I think there are a few thoughts and emotions fueling those remarks.

It's OK as far as her possessiveness goes, but Miranda is also very reserved and private. I find it strange they would give her a line where she requires Shepard to basically tell everyone they're together. First, it's really nobody's business, and second, on a warship a relationship between the CO and the XO isn't something that should be widely announced.

I do not like that line at all. It goes against her reservedness and against her professionalism both.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 janvier 2012 - 09:39 .

[android654]

That was a typo, I fixed it. I meant to say "personal work," anything that she would see as beneficial for her to work on to make herself even "better."

Yeah, I know, I was just elaborating on how she might see such a thing done to her by someone she viewed as an equal.

[android654]

Ieldra2 wrote...

android654 wrote...

Dr. Doctor wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Can you tell me? the only love triangle I've started was Miranda (romanced) then Tali (Told me to break up with Miranda).

The line IIRC is "everyone needs to know that you're mine" while I understand that Miranda can be blunt at times, this is a little too much.

I thought it was fitting it spoke to the core of the character. It was forceful, possessive and intended to be intimidating. She invested emotion and time into Shepard, and to play second chair is not something she would take lightly. In fact I'd go so far as  saying that Miranda wouldn't let someone go or be "done" with them until she decided so.

To think that Shepard could appeal to her, someone with a grand image of herself, and also be interested in Jack --A mad person in her view who has many problems to the point of being the epitome of defunct-- or Tali --Someone she probably considers insignififcant or of very little consequence to their work-- might be quite the insult.

So I think there are a few thoughts and emotions fueling those remarks.

It's OK as far as her possessiveness goes, but Miranda is also very reserved and private. I find it strange they would give her a line where she requires Shepard to basically tell everyone they're together. First, it's really nobody's business, and second, on a warship a relationship between the CO and the XO isn't something that should be widely announced.

I do not like that line at all. It goes against her reservedness and against her professionalism both.

I think it has nothing to do with telling the whole ship but more about marking her territory and perhaps a slight desire to vindicate herself by telling the "other woman" that she lost.

She clearly plays for keeps and that is what she would want other pepple to take note of.

Modifié par android654, 17 janvier 2012 - 09:43 .

[nelly21]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

@android 2nd paragraph

At least I can head-canon Miranda as being Shepard's equal.

I don't think you need to head canon it. She is his equal physically and perhaps his superior mentally. What she doesn't have is history. Shepard took down Saren and uncovered the Reapers.

It's why I think the renegade romance is better suited for Miranda. In it, Shep knocks her down, exposing her insecurities to her. That's why he teases her for being jealous. When he says it, she's pissed and even then tries to take partial credit when she says, "I'm the one that rebuilt you, remember?" When Shep kisses her, her confusion is evident because she can't deal with the emotions. She thought she was above these frivolities.

Physically though, she is Shep's equal. And I don't think anyone believes that Shep is smart enough to bring someone back from the dead.

[android654]

nelly21 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

@android 2nd paragraph

At least I can head-canon Miranda as being Shepard's equal.

I don't think you need to head canon it. She is his equal physically and perhaps his superior mentally. What she doesn't have is history. Shepard took down Saren and uncovered the Reapers.

It's why I think the renegade romance is better suited for Miranda. In it, Shep knocks her down, exposing her insecurities to her. That's why he teases her for being jealous. When he says it, she's pissed and even then tries to take partial credit when she says, "I'm the one that rebuilt you, remember?" When Shep kisses her, her confusion is evident because she can't deal with the emotions. She thought she was above these frivolities.

Physically though, she is Shep's equal. And I don't think anyone believes that Shep is smart enough to bring someone back from the dead.

They are not physical equals. She's clearly better than him in that realm despite whatever you've done with your Shepard. I mean she's without ailments of genetic malformations of any kind. That alone makes her better than the entirety of human existence thus far, Shepard included. When you add that with her education and dedication to master anything she does she's his mental superior as well as superior in terms of character.

[jtav]

Actually, I'd say she's more on Shep's level with the kiss. Her body language us much more assertive. She doesn't stammer as much, and she comes back with a witty retort of her own. She owns the impressiveness of the Lazarus Project.

[CrutchCricket]

nelly21 wrote...
And I don't think anyone believes that Shep is smart enough to bring someone back from the dead.

Unfair comparison, to say nothing of how vague a statement like "x is smarter than y" is. They were clearly trained for different, if overlapping roles. It's almost book smarts vs street smarts. Being a scientific mind, Miranda may have a higher IQ yet Shepard may be a better strategist. I don' t think they belong on the same scale.

[Ryzaki]

android654 wrote...
They are not physical equals. She's clearly better than him in that realm despite whatever you've done with your Shepard. I mean she's without ailments of genetic malformations of any kind. That alone makes her better than the entirety of human existence thus far, Shepard included. When you add that with her education and dedication to master anything she does she's his mental superior as well as superior in terms of character.

On what basis? Maybe pre Lazarus project sure but post? Uh...not seeing that sorry.

As for mental superior in some ways sure, in other ways Shep has things she lacks.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 janvier 2012 - 09:55 .

[android654]

Ryzaki wrote...

android654 wrote...
They are not physical equals. She's clearly better than him in that realm despite whatever you've done with your Shepard. I mean she's without ailments of genetic malformations of any kind. That alone makes her better than the entirety of human existence thus far, Shepard included. When you add that with her education and dedication to master anything she does she's his mental superior as well as superior in terms of character.

On what basis? Maybe pre Lazarus project sure but post? Uh...not seeing that sorry.

The point of restoring him was to put him exactly as he was before Lazarus. They stated this more than once.

Pre Lazarus Shepard = Post Lazarus Shepard.

Modifié par android654, 17 janvier 2012 - 09:55 .

[Ieldra]

nelly21 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

@android 2nd paragraph

At least I can head-canon Miranda as being Shepard's equal.

I don't think you need to head canon it. She is his equal physically and perhaps his superior mentally. What she doesn't have is history. Shepard took down Saren and uncovered the Reapers.

It's why I think the renegade romance is better suited for Miranda. In it, Shep knocks her down, exposing her insecurities to her. That's why he teases her for being jealous. When he says it, she's pissed and even then tries to take partial credit when she says, "I'm the one that rebuilt you, remember?" When Shep kisses her, her confusion is evident because she can't deal with the emotions. She thought she was above these frivolities.

Physically though, she is Shep's equal. And I don't think anyone believes that Shep is smart enough to bring someone back from the dead.

I agree she's likely Shepard's superior mentally, though she lacks his inspirational leadership. Physically, however, she's not his equal. Not with all the upgrades he got from the Lazarus project. Shepard is likely more resilient and stronger. They're likely a match in body coordination.

Agree about the Renegade romance. She's more confident and assertive in that version, in spite of being teased by Shepard in an area where she's vulnerable.  "I'm the one who put you back together remember, and I do damn good work."

Modifié par Ieldra2, 17 janvier 2012 - 09:57 .

[CrutchCricket]

android654 wrote...
They are not physical equals. She's clearly better than him in that realm despite whatever you've done with your Shepard. I mean she's without ailments of genetic malformations of any kind. That alone makes her better than the entirety of human existence thus far, Shepard included. When you add that with her education and dedication to master anything she does she's his mental superior as well as superior in terms of character.

Have you factored in the upgrades made by Lazarus as well as the ones Shepard picks up later? I'd say that boosts his physical abilities at least to her level if not beyond. All thanks to her of course. But still. Then there's the pre-kiss convo which pretty much amounts to "I was designed, you are natural and you still kick ass on the same level if not higher". That's not just history.

[nelly21]

android654 wrote...

They are not physical equals. She's clearly better than him in that realm despite whatever you've done with your Shepard. I mean she's without ailments of genetic malformations of any kind. That alone makes her better than the entirety of human existence thus far, Shepard included. When you add that with her education and dedication to master anything she does she's his mental superior as well as superior in terms of character.

But Shep is upgraded in ME 2 right? The skin weave implants and all that. Either way, it proves my argument. You don't need to imgine her being his equal. She is. I would go so far as to say she is superior to him. What she lacks is the intagibles. When she opens up in that conversation where she apologizes for not believing in him. She lacks that "fire" that gets people to follow Shep into no-win situations. This manifests in the SM mission where she volunteers to lead the fire team and Jack and Garrus both say no.

Take away the intangible and Miranda is superior to Shepard in basically every way.

[Ryzaki]

android654 wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

android654 wrote...
They are not physical equals. She's clearly better than him in that realm despite whatever you've done with your Shepard. I mean she's without ailments of genetic malformations of any kind. That alone makes her better than the entirety of human existence thus far, Shepard included. When you add that with her education and dedication to master anything she does she's his mental superior as well as superior in terms of character.

On what basis? Maybe pre Lazarus project sure but post? Uh...not seeing that sorry.

The point of restoring him was to put himexactly as he was before Lazarus. They stated this more than once.

Pre Lazarus Shepard = Post Lazarus Shepard.

And Shep states he was upgraded more than once as well. "I noticed a few upgrades. I hope you didn't replace anything important." not to mention Shep's enhancements themselves disagree with the whole "he's exactly the way he was." spiel. I'd say Shep knew about his old body more than anyone else. There's conflicting information about this of course (he also tells Jacob "I'm glad enough they restored me to stock." if paragon). Which bleh BW. But the upgrades and Shep's abilities as well as the change in implants all suggest he's not exactly the same.

So no Pre Lazarus Shepard =/= Post Lazarus Shepard.

Pre Lazarus Adept Shepard was an L3

Post Lazarus Adept Shepard is a L5.

So no they're not exactly the same.

I'm thinking that "exactly the same" was morality and mindset. And somewhat physical appearence (but even that's killed by those cybernetic eyes and scars). Like the Normandy "Seamless improvements were made."

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 janvier 2012 - 10:03 .

[nelly21]

CrutchCricket wrote...

nelly21 wrote...
And I don't think anyone believes that Shep is smart enough to bring someone back from the dead.

Unfair comparison, to say nothing of how vague a statement like "x is smarter than y" is. They were clearly trained for different, if overlapping roles. It's almost book smarts vs street smarts. Being a scientific mind, Miranda may have a higher IQ yet Shepard may be a better strategist. I don' t think they belong on the same scale.

Fair point. However, couldn't you argue that Miranda is as good a field tactician as well? When placed as leader of the fire team, she succeeds with no loses despite reticent squadmates.

[android654]

nelly21 wrote...

android654 wrote...

They are not physical equals. She's clearly better than him in that realm despite whatever you've done with your Shepard. I mean she's without ailments of genetic malformations of any kind. That alone makes her better than the entirety of human existence thus far, Shepard included. When you add that with her education and dedication to master anything she does she's his mental superior as well as superior in terms of character.

But Shep is upgraded in ME 2 right? The skin weave implants and all that. Either way, it proves my argument. You don't need to imgine her being his equal. She is. I would go so far as to say she is superior to him. What she lacks is the intagibles. When she opens up in that conversation where she apologizes for not believing in him. She lacks that "fire" that gets people to follow Shep into no-win situations. This manifests in the SM mission where she volunteers to lead the fire team and Jack and Garrus both say no.

Take away the intangible and Miranda is superior to Shepard in basically every way.

Those upgrades you pick up are all varaibles since it can't be stuck to the official lore since you can take them or elect to not upgrade them.

I think the lack of character she mentions is mostly to stroke the ego of the player, but that is still a valid point. However, arguing interms of the intangible (merrit, character, personality) starts dipping into the esoteric a bit. I was arguing at their foundation, If They're both compared at a tissue level just the organisms they are as when their born without potential biotic upgrades, she's his superior.

However Miranda is just as effective ad Garrus in leading the diversion team at both points during the SM. It came off as more of an attack against her because she's Cerberus not  because of her. Also, to be fair, her work as a leader isn't presented as much as her other contributions to the Normandy.

Modifié par android654, 17 janvier 2012 - 10:03 .

[Ryzaki]

android654 wrote...
Those upgrades you pick up are all varaibles since it can't be stuck to the official lore since you can take them or elect to not upgrade them.

I think the lack of character she mentions is mostly to stroke the ego of the player, but that is still a valid point. However, arguing interms of the intangible (merrit, character, personality) starts dipping into the esoteric a bit. I was arguing at their foundation, If They're both compared at a tissue level just the organisms they are as when their born without potential biotic upgrades, she's his superior.

However Miranda is just as effective ad Garrus in leading the diversion team at both points during the SM.

They're already based off upgrades that were put in Shep to begin with though. His muscles/skin already has the foundation for it. Like Jensen's augs. Sure he can boost himself even MORE but he's already pretty damn tough to start with.

And I'm arguing they're roughly equal and if anyone's the superior it's Shepard at base. Mostly because Shep has the benefit of getting the fruits of Miranda's labor. I don't see Miranda not designing Shepard to be as strong, fast and as powerful as he could be and stay mentally stable. After all the mission needs to succeed and all of them need to be in top form for that to happen.
Basically he's only physically superior because she designed him to be superior.

As is Jacob. That just means the three of them are good leaders when push comes to shove.

Course as far as I'm concerned my Shep's not completely human anymore. Cyborg baby.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 janvier 2012 - 10:13 .

[AgitatedLemon]

nelly21 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

@android 2nd paragraph

At least I can head-canon Miranda as being Shepard's equal.

I don't think you need to head canon it. She is his equal physically and perhaps his superior mentally. What she doesn't have is history. Shepard took down Saren and uncovered the Reapers.

It's why I think the renegade romance is better suited for Miranda. In it, Shep knocks her down, exposing her insecurities to her. That's why he teases her for being jealous. When he says it, she's pissed and even then tries to take partial credit when she says, "I'm the one that rebuilt you, remember?" When Shep kisses her, her confusion is evident because she can't deal with the emotions. She thought she was above these frivolities.

Physically though, she is Shep's equal. And I don't think anyone believes that Shep is smart enough to bring someone back from the dead.

In terms of raw intelligence and intellect, Miranda beats Shepard no problem. Physically, it would depend on the upgrades Shepard received. They were never elaborated upon, were they? Anyway, he was able to go toe to toe with the Shadow Broker, and head butted a krogan without showing any immediate signs of pain or discomfort. If the various upgrades found in-game are to be taken into account, then his bone density is stronger than hers, even if he isn't brawnier then she is. Ergo, his bones are harder to break than hers.

When it comes to leading a fire team and overall soldiering, I think Shepard wins, if by only a bit. Miranda herself acknowledges this, with the whole "I don't have the fire that you have" talk. On that, Shepard is also likely a better motivational speaker. 

@bold, the way you put it makes Shepard sound like a huge dick. I like the kiss, but the dialogue preceding and following is kinda... meh.

edit: How did no one catch this? in my "head canon" and "Shepard's equal", I was referring to her rank aboard hte Normandy, not his/her traits.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 17 janvier 2012 - 10:14 .

[nelly21]

android654 wrote...

Those upgrades you pick up are all varaibles since it can't be stuck to the official lore since you can take them or elect to not upgrade them.

I think the lack of character she mentions is mostly to stroke the ego of the player, but that is still a valid point. However, arguing interms of the intangible (merrit, character, personality) starts dipping into the esoteric a bit. I was arguing at their foundation, If They're both compared at a tissue level just the organisms they are as when their born without potential biotic upgrades, she's his superior.

However Miranda is just as effective ad Garrus in leading the diversion team at both points during the SM. It came off as more of an attack against her because she's Cerberus not  because of her. Also, to be fair, her work as a leader isn't presented as much as her other contributions to the Normandy.

Correct. That's why I think her superiority is pretty well established, let alone her equality. While physical attributes are debatable, her mental acumen is, I believe, superior. As far as physically goes, she is indubitably his superior pre-lazarus. Post-lazarus is questionable. Either way, we don't need to imagine her as equal to Shep. She is.

Modifié par nelly21, 17 janvier 2012 - 10:14 .

[android654]

Is that actually written somewhere in the codex, that upgrades were made to him in order to accept other upgrades? Either way it doesn't matter how they tweaked him. If Shepard was born with toes with irregular length, a misshapen tooth, uneven eyes, a weak liver, discolored skin, etc it diminishes his standing as a perfect person. Whether the defects are cosmetic or not it still affects that standing and no matter how you build that Shepard they will always have a little thing that is "off" about them. Miranda doesn't have any of those problems, anywhere within her person.

I'm just not seeing how they're equal or how Shepard is superior. Yes Shepard's the Hero/Heroine of the epic so naturally there is something "special" about them in their ability to get the job done. However its kind of hard to say your equal to someone who's designed to be the perfect specimen of their species without being made perfect yourself, which Shepard isn't. Shepard flaunts his/her flaws with pride as it humanizes them and makes the narrative of fighting for humans more personal.

Modifié par android654, 17 janvier 2012 - 10:17 .

[Ryzaki]

android654 wrote...

Is that actually written somewhere in the codex, that upgrades were made to him in order to accept other upgrades? Either way it doesn't matter how they tweaked him. If Shepard was born with toes with irregular length, a misshapen tooth, uneven eyes, a weak liver, discolored skin, etc it diminishes his standing as a perfect person. Whether the defects are cosmetic or not it still affects that standing and not matter how you build that Shepard they will always have a little thing that is "off" about them. Miranda doesn't have any of those problems, anywhere within her person.

I'm just not seeing how they're equal or how Shepard is superior. Yes Shepard's the Hero/Heroine of the epic so naturally there is something "special" about them in their ability to get the job done.

However its kind of hard to say your equal to someone who's designed to be the perfect specimen of their species without being made perfect yourself, which Shepard isn't. Shepard flaunts his/her flaws with pride as it humanizes them and makes the narrative of fighting for humans more personal.

I don't see what toes and stuff have to do with physical prowess. That's what I was contesting.

If Shep and Miranda got in a hand to hand fight I'd bet on Shep. Frankly if Shep and anyone gets in hand to hand I'm betting on Shep. That doesn't make him better than Miranda just a better fighter.

Miranda is designed to be perfect yes. But that in itself would be something "off" to any normal human being we're all flawed so anything not flawed will be alien and stand out.

Never said Shep was superior. Just said he was a better fighter and was most likely as fast and as strong as her because Miranda made him so.

Seeing as I only see Miranda as close to perfect physically saying Shep's her equal when she designed his body to me means little. Both Shep and Miranda are flawed and arguing otherwise is foolish. It just happens to be with (personality is the wrong word) mentally instead of physically with Miranda instead of the mix with every other human being.

Edit: Miranda's not even physically perfect if LOTSB dossier is canon. She's flawed like every other human INCLUDING Shepard.
Plus my Shep's a god mode sue. You don't want to be the equal of a god mode sue.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 17 janvier 2012 - 10:25 .

[MisterJB]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
The line IIRC is "everyone needs to know that you're mine" while I understand that Miranda can be blunt at times, this is a little too much.

That's the Paragon line. The Renegade is more befitting of Miranda.
"If you think that something like that(the kiss) is going to happen again while you're doing the same thing with someone else, you’re very mistaken."