82199 réponses à ce sujet

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

strive wrote...

Equal. Shepard does all the "pep talks". Shepard helps fix her problems. It felt very one sided and  that she was putting him on a pedestal at times.

I was interested in her character by how strong her personality was. She was strong and independent and that goes to hell after her Loyalty Mission. She treats Shepard like a King and she is some peasant girl. (okay that my be hyperbole sorry) I want her to show more of her strong traits and have her to "rally" Shepard's morale every once in a while. Instead of Shepard always being her emotional crutch.

This, precisely. Right now the relationship is more akin to god/worshipper than a romamce. She pourss her heart out, but he's never vulnerable. That's the major reason the romance gives me the creeps. I'd also like better main plot intergration. The love scene makes them look sociopathic. Miranda didn't clear the engine room of anyone except Tali.

I wouldn't judge the romance quite as harshly, but yes, her competence, independence and strong personality all but vanish in certain parts of the ME2 romance. Now a romance is where people are vulnerable, so I wouldn't mind - if Shepard got an equal treatment. But no, he has to have the same "I'm not really touched by anything" attitude as everywhere else.

I do not want her to be just a follower in the main plot, and I do not want her to be the only vulnerable part in the romance. Their give and take should be balanced, and even if her being not so confident in emotional things was part of her in ME2, I would want that to change in ME3. .

[ISpeakTheTruth]

Compared to Tali who I think literally worships Shepard like a god and Liara that comes off looking like a stalker Miranda is the nearest we get to an equal partner. Sure the romance parts some time puts here in that lesser role but when not in romance scenes she still openly questions Shepard's choices and isn't affraid to say what she thinks which I always liked about her.

[jtav]

Nearest we get is still pretty far. We had a perfect opportunity to show some vulnerability in the promise scene. Shepard should have had the option to extract the same promise from her. But no, SuperShep is firmly in control.

[Raizo]

ISpeakTheTruth wrote...

Compared to Tali who I think literally worships Shepard like a god and Liara that comes off looking like a stalker Miranda is the nearest we get to an equal partner. Sure the romance parts some time puts here in that lesser role but when not in romance scenes she still openly questions Shepard's choices and isn't affraid to say what she thinks which I always liked about her.

Exactly. It's one of the main reasons why I am so passionate about my love for Miranda's character ( and I have a lot of reasons to like her ).

[goofyomnivore]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I wouldn't judge the romance quite as harshly, but yes, her competence, independence and strong personality all but vanish in certain parts of the ME2 romance. Now a romance is where people are vulnerable, so I wouldn't mind - if Shepard got an equal treatment. But no, he has to have the same "I'm not really touched by anything" attitude as everywhere else.

I do not want her to be just a follower in the main plot, and I do not want her to be the only vulnerable part in the romance. Their give and take should be balanced, and even if her being not so confident in emotional things was part of her in ME2, I would want that to change in ME3. .

I agree that Shepard's writing really hurts the romance at times. I don't want her to be the ice queen that she was on the Cerberus station, but she seems to fall head over heels for Shepard too easily, and she just concedes to Shepard's presence instead of maintaining a balance.

Now on the other hand I know that other things dictate the romances. Limited dialogue, pleasing the player's ego, etc. And that we the players are expected/given the freedom to fill in the dots in the romance. I just felt like the power shift in the romance was a little too much, considering it is Miranda being romanced. I went into her romance expecting to have to earn her loyalty and love, and I expected her to challenge me to achieve it, but she just kind of went "okay shep you're right". Others have mentioned Miranda's is one of the more balanced romances compared to other companions, but Liara and Tali are pretty much designed to appeal to that imbalance of power. Liara has gained greatly on Miranda though after LotSB at being "in balance" with Shepard IMO.

Basically I agree with all your points Ieldra, and would be very pleased if they came to truth. I just wanted to clarify on my harshness/hyperbole from earlier.

Modifié par strive, 14 juin 2011 - 03:39 .

[stysiaq]

Well, since Miranda is quite well written, it would be unfair for her fans to remove her out of the picture. SB dossier on her indicates, that she is the one who really pursues a serious relationship (kids and stuff), ou can't also forget the pregnancy gossip Kasumi is spreading after you sleep with her.

[jtav]

There is no pregnancy gossip. And it seems pretty clear she was looking for a sperm donor with iPartners. Shepard is a serious relationship for her, but I don't think she was looking to settle down when it started.

It's come to my attention that there are some issues with the wishlist. So I'm opening the floor for suggestions. You have 24 hours to tell me what you do and don't want. I'll compile that and see if I can come up with something that works for everyone.

[goofyomnivore]

Revan92 wrote...

Is this really the Miranda thread? Because the way how the OP wants her to be isnt Miranda at all.

Really..just accept the fact that Miranda has a soft side. Bioware isnt going to change it.

I thought how the OP described her was pretty accurate, and I don't think anyone denies/doesn't want her to have a soft spot. Although vague disapproval will not improve the OP/do much in general, so offer your insight! I like to read/discuss others thoughts on Miranda.

Modifié par strive, 14 juin 2011 - 04:00 .

[TomY90]

Revan92 wrote...

This is my opinion about Miranda:

The reason why I like her so much is because how she develops through out the story. She starts as someone who is a little cold, but during the course of the story she shows who truly is.

This is my opinion. I dont care if people disagree with it. Just dont pretend as if you know Miranda so well. The only people who truly know Miranda are Bioware and her VA Yvonne Strahovski.

you are correct we are all making guesses on what the character would do in such situations but in a way that is a good job by the writers and yvonne because of creating such a character we can in a way relate to and talk to, rather than just looking at what the character says in the game.

I think it as a compliment that fans have ideas about the character they create by knowing the characters.

[Ieldra]

I think it is a misperception by some oversensitive fans that I, jtav and some others do not want Miranda to have a vulnerable side. In the first post on this very page, I explicitly said that I do not mind it and find it appropriate for the romance. It is the power imbalance we object to, the fact that Shepard does not have a corresponding vulnerability. And we do not think that Miranda would make strategically important decisions based on emotions. That is all. She can be as soft as you want in the romance, as long as she's an equal to Shepard, and as long as she's professional and not sentimental in her job. Because if she is not professional in her job, she cannot be the competent and highly successful operative she was introduced as in ME2. Sentimentality on the job and being a competent operative is a contradiction. Opinions don't change that fact. In the romance - all bets are off. What I personally care about is that she is more than an adjunct to Shepard, in and out of the romance.

For the wishlist: I would want everything to stay as is it now, most importantly the first three entries. I would also like the list of reasons why we like Miranda from the FAQ included in the OP.

@Revan92:
It appears to me that you, Yannkee and a few others want Miranda to be perfectly pliable in Shepard's hands, and that he should be free to shape her according to his wishes. At least that's what you sound like at times. That is NOT the Miranda Lawson I see in ME2.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 14 juin 2011 - 04:23 .

[naledgeborn]

Yeah best fictional analogy I can come up with is that Miranda is Catwoman to Shepard's Batman. Very interested and intrigued yet she is her own independent persona and not a "yes man" by any means. If something Shepard does is of questionable logic she'll be the first to say it. Miranda doing a "high-heel face turn" at the end of ME2 pisses me off because if you didn't consistently bring her along it seems forced and out of character. I do believe that ultimately she's against keeping the base but they should have made her doubt in Cerberus less subtle. It's like she quit just because she's defected to "team Shepard". It should have been apparent (if base destroyed) that she quit Cerberus on her own initiative with heavy foreshadowing. That fact that there's barely any foreshadowing makes her look weak and impulsive.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 14 juin 2011 - 04:47 .

[Melra]

We want her as she is now, she has her soft side. I don't want her to become a damsel in distress, but I don't think, if she gets saved once or twice by Shepard, that she's suddenly a weak woman. I don't need her to be saved, but I don't understand the fear of her possibly getting saved by Shepard at some point.

She's great character and a strong character, I had no complaints about her really, the DLC armor was pretty horrid, but it's optional anyway, I just hope they stay away from that kind of equipment for her.

At least my Shepard and Miranda, didn't agree on everything and even if they did, it was because Shepard more or less ''submitted'' himself, not the other way around. In my opinion, if you continue to romance her in ME3, she should open up more to Shepard in some ways. Depending on how she and Shepard have gone about their romance in the past.

[Caihn]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I think it is a misperception by some oversensitive fans that I, jtav and some others do not want Miranda to have a vulnerable side. In the first post on this very page, I explicitly said that I do not mind it and find it appropriate for the romance. It is the power imbalance we object to, the fact that Shepard does not have a corresponding vulnerability. And we do not think that Miranda would make strategically important decisions based on emotions. That is all. She can be as soft as you want in the romance, as long as she's an equal to Shepard, and as long as she's professional and not sentimental in her job. Because if she is not professional in her job, she cannot be the competent and highly successful operative she was introduced as in ME2. Sentimentality on the job and being a competent operative is a contradiction. Opinions don't change that fact. In the romance - all bets are off. What I personally care about is that she is more than an adjunct to Shepard, in and out of the romance.

For the wishlist: I would want everything to stay as is it now, most importantly the first three entries. I would also like the list of reasons why we like Miranda from the FAQ included in the OP.

@Revan92:
It appears to me that you, Yannkee and a few others want Miranda to be perfectly pliable in Shepard's hands, and that he should be free to shape her according to his wishes. At least that's what you sound like at times. That is NOT the Miranda Lawson I see in ME2.

I've never said that, and Revan92, myself, and others have our own opinions about the character.
Me, I don't refuse to accept a fact that is in the game. You don't want to accept that she can sometimes make important decisions based on emotions ? But the fact is : she does. Now feel free to dislike this point of the game, but don't claim that it's not the Miranda who is in the game.I don't want to change her, I like her as she is in ME2, and how the writters decided that she would be. I accept everything as part of her character, even the rare things I'm not fan of.
And I always said that she is a competent, intelligent, independent, and strong woman. And to me this doesn't mean that she can't be sometimes more emotional, and not just during her private life.

As for the wishlist, I was the first one who suggested to remove it from the OP. The reason is : I would like to see every fans participate in this thread, and not see some of them stay away because they would feel like supporting some points they don't agree with.

Modifié par Yannkee, 14 juin 2011 - 04:58 .

[Caihn]

Melrache wrote...

We want her as she is now, she has her soft side. I don't want her to become a damsel in distress, but I don't think, if she gets saved once or twice by Shepard, that she's suddenly a weak woman. I don't need her to be saved, but I don't understand the fear of her possibly getting saved by Shepard at some point.

She's great character and a strong character, I had no complaints about her really, the DLC armor was pretty horrid, but it's optional anyway, I just hope they stay away from that kind of equipment for her.

At least my Shepard and Miranda, didn't agree on everything and even if they did, it was because Shepard more or less ''submitted'' himself, not the other way around. In my opinion, if you continue to romance her in ME3, she should open up more to Shepard in some ways. Depending on how she and Shepard have gone about their romance in the past.

I agree.

And I also would like that Shepard open up more to her. But I think this is what the writers have in mind.

[Ieldra]

Revan92 wrote...
Ieldra@ This is exactly why I disagree with you. Who are you to say that it is wrong if she makes decisions based on her emotions. If Bioware let her do then she can do it. She is still just human.

Please note that I was talking about "important strategic decisions", not any decisions. You'd never hear me complain about how Miranda acts around Oriana.

And yes, I say it is wrong because any character's major decisions we see in the games are so few that they can be interpreted to be representative of their character. In Miranda's case, if such behaviour is representative of her character, if she has a habit of making decisions that way, then it contradicts her being a competent operative. That is not a matter of opinion, that's just how things work in her business. Yes, she's not perfect and perhaps she'll slip up occasionally, but the more important a decision is, the more she'd be likely to take a mental step back before making a snapshot decision based on emotions. Again it's ok in personal matters like with Oriana, in big matters it's a big no-no. Ask any strategist. It is not a matter of Miranda as a person. It is a matter of Miranda as a highly successful and competent operative. If you want her to make important strategic decisions based on emotions as a rule, then you deny that aspect of her.

I also think that Miranda is the mind to Ashley's heart. Again, that does not mean that Ashley is stupid or that Miranda has no heart, but as a rule she comes across as the pragmatic one, everywhere in the game except in her romance. Even in her loyalty mission, she'd decide to kill Niket because he's a loose end, in spite of their old friendship, and she'd decide not to talk to Oriana because it's safer, unless Shepard makes her. Oriana's case is, I think, representative: obviously she cares a great deal about her, but she won't act on her love because of practical considerations.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 14 juin 2011 - 05:06 .

[jtav]

Exactly Ieldra, Never forget what she is: a highly placed member of a paramilitary organization. She's dead if she lets her emotions rule her in matters relating to her professional competence.

[Ieldra]

Melrache wrote...
We want her as she is now, she has her soft side. I don't want her to become a damsel in distress, but I don't think, if she gets saved once or twice by Shepard, that she's suddenly a weak woman. I don't need her to be saved, but I don't understand the fear of her possibly getting saved by Shepard at some point.

Again, the problem is that scenes with her are so few that they can be interpreted as being representative. If you get the "Shepard saves Miranda" scenario, there is the danger that she'll come across as considerably lesser than Shepard unless care is taken that she goes a long way to get out of trouble herself and Shepard only helps her over the last hurdle, so to speak. The problem is that I don't trust Bioware to find the right balance, they've been rather heavy-handed so far with their characters.
What they did in ME2 was pretty good - first you pull Miranda up onto the platform, then she pulls Shepard up onto the ship. But that scene was not LI-specific and conveyed that balance only accidentally.

She's great character and a strong character, I had no complaints about her really

You appear to imply that any criticism of her presentation is illegitimate. I do not agree with that. If she is conceived of as a strong and competent character, as she obviously is, and that comptetence is not showcased enough in the game in favor of showcasing her mistakes, then I think there is a reason to complain. Note that this is just an example..

the DLC armor was pretty horrid, but it's optional anyway, I just hope they stay away from that kind of equipment for her.

I don't see anything wrong with having something like it as an option and I don't see why you are so dead-set against including it this way. You needn't use it, so what's the matter? Having said that, I prefer the AAP2 armor to the catsuits but would prefer something lighter for ME3.

At least my Shepard and Miranda, didn't agree on everything and even if they did, it was because Shepard more or less ''submitted'' himself, not the other way around. In my opinion, if you continue to romance her in ME3, she should open up more to Shepard in some ways. Depending on how she and Shepard have gone about their romance in the past.

Interestingly, here it is me - and my main Shepard - who agreed with many things she recommended and "likes her as she is". I also find she opens up enough. Where exactly didnt she open up enough for you?

[Caihn]

Raizo wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Prudii Aden wrote...

I'm all for this, unsurprisingly. What I'd like in the romance? A couple of scenes akin to the post lockdown one in ME 1, where Shepard can be less guarded or show emotions more freely. Something similar to the discussion Shepard and Liara had post Shadow Broker wouldn't be bad either.

I think it's what Bioware plans to do in ME3.

I hope so.

I think the scene with the little boy during the Earth escape demo at E3 is representative of what the writers want to do with Shepard.

Modifié par Yannkee, 14 juin 2011 - 05:40 .

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...

Raizo wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Prudii Aden wrote...

I'm all for this, unsurprisingly. What I'd like in the romance? A couple of scenes akin to the post lockdown one in ME 1, where Shepard can be less guarded or show emotions more freely. Something similar to the discussion Shepard and Liara had post Shadow Broker wouldn't be bad either.

I think it's what Bioware plans to do in ME3.

I hope so.

I think the scene with the little boy during the Earth escape demo at E3 is representative of what the writers want to do with Shepard.

I appreciate that, but again, I can only hope they won't overcompensate for the lack of that in ME2. I'd like to have a say in how I react. In ME2 they didn't let me make Shepard express emotions as much as I'd have liked, but I would very much dislike it if in ME3 they'll force me to express emotions where I don't want to. I'm not worried about the romances, more about the regular game scenes.

[Melra]

I think that any criticism about her behavior is wrong. She should be the same as she was at the end of ME2, unless given some reason to her change, though if she had done whole ''Liara'' switch one me, I'd throw the game into garbage. There should be no reason to change her now, just because someone didn't like how she was in ME2. It wouldn't seem right.

About the armor, sure have it as option, but only as option. It doesn't have to be the same outfit as in ME2, I'd be actually happier if it wasn't. As long as it's light and something that would follow the line that her two first outfits were. As I've said in the past, I think the Asari Commando style might be great for her.

I didn't mean that she didn't open up enough, but she still could open up more, I mean I want to progress the romance further. I don't want it to be all ''Oh hey, hun *huggles and kisses* Now.. Off you go.'' With progress, I don't mean babies or wedding, I just want to know more about the character and I want the two to get more and more closer,if possible.

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Raizo wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Prudii Aden wrote...

I'm all for this, unsurprisingly. What I'd like in the romance? A couple of scenes akin to the post lockdown one in ME 1, where Shepard can be less guarded or show emotions more freely. Something similar to the discussion Shepard and Liara had post Shadow Broker wouldn't be bad either.

I think it's what Bioware plans to do in ME3.

I hope so.

I think the scene with the little boy during the Earth escape demo at E3 is representative of what the writers want to do with Shepard.

I appreciate that, but again, I can only hope they won't overcompensate for the lack of that in ME2. I'd like to have a say in how I react. In ME2 they didn't let me make Shepard express emotions as much as I'd have liked, but I would very much dislike it if in ME3 they'll force me to express emotions where I don't want to. I'm not worried about the romances, more about the regular game scenes. 

Well, of course it should be up to everyone to choose how one's character reacts. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie] Though, I am not sure if that's the point of this thread anymore. Or is it? I am not sure. [smilie]http://social.bioware.com/images/forum/emoticons/whistling.png[/smilie]

Modifié par Melrache, 14 juin 2011 - 05:50 .

[TheMarshal]

Melrache wrote...

I think that any criticism about her behavior is wrong. She should be the same as she was at the end of ME2, unless given some reason to her change, though if she had done whole ''Liara'' switch one me, I'd throw the game into garbage. There should be no reason to change her now, just because someone didn't like how she was in ME2. It wouldn't seem right.

About the armor, sure have it as option, but only as option. It doesn't have to be the same outfit as in ME2, I'd be actually happier if it wasn't. As long as it's light and something that would follow the line that her two first outfits were. As I've said in the past, I think the Asari Commando style might be great for her.

I didn't mean that she didn't open up enough, but she still could open up more, I mean I want to progress the romance further. I don't want it to be all ''Oh hey, hun *huggles and kisses* Now.. Off you go.'' With progress, I don't mean babies or wedding, I just want to know more about the character and I want the two to get more and more closer,if possible.

I'm curious what you think a Liara "switch" would look like on Miranda?  If anything, ME2/LotSB Liara became more self-sufficient and competent than her ME1 counterpart.  She grew - as a character - beyond the scope of her original design, which, let's be honest, was 'sexy blue alien babe'.

I know I'm going to get flamed to all hell for saying this in here of all places, but Miranda's original character design was 'sexy femme fatale'.  A Bond villain, essentially.  Now, I definitely think that in both hers and Liara's cases, the characters that they wound up being were much meatier than their original designs, and I think that any character development they do for Miranda in ME3 could and should give her more depth of character, much like ME2/LotSB did for Liara.

[Caihn]

Melrache wrote...
About the armor, sure have it as option, but only as option. It doesn't have to be the same outfit as in ME2, I'd be actually happier if it wasn't. As long as it's light and something that would follow the line that her two first outfits were. As I've said in the past, I think the Asari Commando style might be great for her.

I agree.




There is also this armor concept (the one the right) I found, which I think would be great :