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[jameshowlett89]

android654 wrote...

Kaidan seriously? He wasn't even a beta male he was gamma easily, he's not good enough for Ashley let alone Miranda.

I'm not getting the Jacob hate.

Jacob sucks balls! get over it, its clear your the only one whos got a hard on for him. Yea he's a stand up guy but he doesn't bring anything to the table that someone like Garrus(whos far more of a bad ass) doesn't already have.
He's just sorta there as one of the better guys compared to the rest of Cerberus to ease the tension at the start of the game.

[MACharlie1]

schemata wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

It couldn't be her complete lack of acknowledgement, or the way Jacob is clinging onto it.

This. Like I said the only thing that brought them together was distance. Miri got bored. Jacob didn't understand.

I always figured Jacob was the one to break it off. 

[CrutchCricket]

Purely physical I think. They developed a friendship separate of that (somehow) but I see no reason to assert any romantic feelings between them.

[MisterJB]

MACharlie1 wrote...
I always figured Jacob was the one to break it off. 

Jacob makes it clear more than once that he wishes he was still with Miranda. This leads to me to believes that she was the one who broke it off.

[schemata]

MACharlie1 wrote...

schemata wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

It couldn't be her complete lack of acknowledgement, or the way Jacob is clinging onto it.

This. Like I said the only thing that brought them together was distance. Miri got bored. Jacob didn't understand.

I always figured Jacob was the one to break it off. 

[MACharlie1]

schemata wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

schemata wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

It couldn't be her complete lack of acknowledgement, or the way Jacob is clinging onto it.

This. Like I said the only thing that brought them together was distance. Miri got bored. Jacob didn't understand.

I always figured Jacob was the one to break it off. 

*snip*

....*doesn't understand what  I did there* 

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...
Jacob makes it clear more than once that he wishes he was still with Miranda.

Funny, I didn't hear it once. Which lines are you referring to?

[schemata]

MACharlie1 wrote...

schemata wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...

schemata wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

It couldn't be her complete lack of acknowledgement, or the way Jacob is clinging onto it.

This. Like I said the only thing that brought them together was distance. Miri got bored. Jacob didn't understand.

I always figured Jacob was the one to break it off. 

*snip*

....*doesn't understand what  I did there* 

[MisterJB]

CrutchCricket wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Jacob makes it clear more than once that he wishes he was still with Miranda.

Funny, I didn't hear it once. Which lines are you referring to?

Shepard asks for insight into her character, Jacob answers "Can't help you there. If I knew what made her tick, I'd either be with her or dead."
Then, of course, "She requires a better man than I"

[CrutchCricket]

MisterJB wrote...
Shepard asks for insight into her character, Jacob answers "Can't help you there. If I knew what made her tick, I'd either be with her or dead."
Then, of course, "She requires a better man than I"

I don't see either of those as particularly longing, especially the second. That's just acceptance- he knows what she wants him to be is beyond what he is or can do. I hadn't considered the first but I'd still lump it under acceptance. In that case, maybe he thought it'd go further but it didn't and he can't quite get why not. In general I think it went down like this:

They work together for a while, developing camaderie and friendship (fuzzy on how). At some point, either as part of the above or on a separate tangent they do it. It's mostly physical and it's uncertain about how long it lasts but eventually Jacob starts maybe wanting more. Miranda ends it (or maybe they mutually realize it won't work). Jacob can't fully get why not but knows he can't fulfill her. He makes his peace with it and the friendship continues. Miranda never thinks about it again.

[Td1984]

CrutchCricket wrote...

android654 wrote...
As for Miranda and Jacob, I just got on that train and its never derailing. Never Derailing

I don't know. If you ask me I think you're going off the rails... possibly on a crazy train.

For myself I don't see any of the other characters we've seen so far as a good match for Miranda. If not Shepard it will be someone unknown down the line who eventually gets her: the very gallant Sir Not-Appearing-in-This-Series

Oh and to the guy who drew the Chuck comparisons: nice. Although I would say it's even more doomed than Sarah/Bryce because Bryce was actually interesting (even if extremely annoying in how he kept getting in the way)

Truth. Bryce was better than Shaw and definitely better than Jacob. Plus, I hated Shaw, but that's straying too off-topic. Let's just say Jacob is nowhere near good enough for Miranda. Not that it matters because as long as both she and my MShep are breathing, they'll be with each other. 

[schemata]

CrutchCricket wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Shepard asks for insight into her character, Jacob answers "Can't help you there. If I knew what made her tick, I'd either be with her or dead."
Then, of course, "She requires a better man than I"

I don't see either of those as particularly longing, especially the second. That's just acceptance- he knows what she wants him to be is beyond what he is or can do. I hadn't considered the first but I'd still lump it under acceptance. In that case, maybe he thought it'd go further but it didn't and he can't quite get why not. In general I think it went down like this:

They work together for a while, developing camaderie and friendship (fuzzy on how). At some point, either as part of the above or on a separate tangent they do it. It's mostly physical and it's uncertain about how long it lasts but eventually Jacob starts maybe wanting more. Miranda ends it (or maybe they mutually realize it won't work). Jacob can't fully get why not but knows he can't fulfill her. He makes his peace with it and the friendship continues. Miranda never thinks about it again.

I was thinking, if it was "only" acceptance why express it? I think thats were you can read into the "longing" aspect

[CrutchCricket]

schemata wrote...
I was thinking, if it was "only" acceptance why express it? I think thats were you can read into the "longing" aspect

Because he was asked? He didn't just barge in on Shep and say "guess what, I used to do it with Miranda fyi lolol".

It came up, he answered truthfully. That's all.

[android654]

If you watch their interaction here in its entirety (6:05) and say there's no unresolved feelings from both parties you either can tell emotion when its present or are being biased against Jacob for whatever the reason may be.

http://www.youtube.c...rxRZM8yY#t=365s

This wasn't just a few quick f**ks, there was definitely n exchange on more than just a physical level. I also can't see people who a few dozen pages back arguing how Much Miranda puts herself into everything she's involved in but once it involves Jacob she's suddenly just doing things for fun. Its one way or the other with her not doing things just because they feel good.

outmane wrote...

I can see how things got quicky staled between Miranda and Jacob because he just as guarded about his feelings as she is. He couldnt manage to express how he felt (same as he is in his romance with Shep) and she saw getting it out of him as a waste of time.

As unimpressive as many consider it to be, Miri's relation with Jacob is part of her story. Maybe she simply saw it as easier with her heavy schedule and the secrecy of her work to date him instead of looking for someone outside of her work environment. Or maybe it was as a no-strings-attached that turned sour.

Well they both have that in common. They're both introverts and definitely like to keep personal things personal which is why he says nothing about it and she ignores it completely.

Could it have begun as purely physical? Yeah, a lot of flings do then they evolve on their own. I've found that only few people can truly have sex repeatedly with people and keep it as just sex. Repeating encounters with people forces us to access our opinions and ultimately feelings about them. The longer it went on the more likely it was that they each got attached to one another.

[MisterJB]

android654 wrote...

If you watch their interaction here in its entirety (6:05) and say there's no unresolved feelings from both parties you either can tell emotion when its present or are being biased against Jacob for whatever the reason may be.

http://www.youtube.c...rxRZM8yY#t=365s

This wasn't just a few quick f**ks, there was definitely n exchange on more than just a physical level. I also can't see people who a few dozen pages back arguing how Much Miranda puts herself into everything she's involved in but once it involves Jacob she's suddenly just doing things for fun. Its one way or the other with her not doing things just because they feel good.

It obvious that Miranda can do things just for fun, the Ipartner for example. Arguably, it could have been to get pregnant but that's still to be proven.
Personally, I am not denying that Miranda cares for Jacob. However, it is also obvious that she does not respect him. She berates him for letting his conscience get the better of him, she also berates him on both Omega and Illium during the party banter for his naivety and she has doubts that he can lead the Fire Team. Shepard has to earn Miranda's respect before the romance can start.
Add to that the fact that Miranda never actually mentions Jacob, even to a romanced Shepard, and that she was not able to recognize her feelings for the commander once they were born, and I do believe you are reading too much on the Miranda side.

Jacob still had feelings for her in ME2 but even he understand that he is just not good enough for her.

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 janvier 2012 - 05:35 .

[CrutchCricket]

android654 wrote...

If you watch their interaction here in its entirety (6:05) and say there's no unresolved feelings from both parties you either can tell emotion when its present or are being biased against Jacob for whatever the reason may be.

http://www.youtube.c...rxRZM8yY#t=365s

This wasn't just a few quick f**ks, there was definitely n exchange on more than just a physical level. I also can't see people who a few dozen pages back arguing how Much Miranda puts herself into everything she's involved in but once it involves Jacob she's suddenly just doing things for fun. Its one way or the other with her not doing things just because they feel good.

Fine I could've used the refresher (haven't seen that scene in months) but it changes nothing. Miranda was keeping an old promise. Something she can do for a friend. That look she gives him before she leaves? That's just regret that it turned out so poorly. She thought she was doing him a favor by finding his father. Instead she revealed his father was a monster. Jacob's obviously upset at what he found. That's the extent of the emotions.

They have some sort of connection I'm not denying that. But it has nothing to do with sex and romance. They tried that route purely in a physical sense and it didn't pan out. That's all there is to it.

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

Totally agreed with Joseph. WTF was bioware thinking when they decided to bring back tali and garrus as permanent squaddies instead of infinitely more useful ones like Miranda or Legion?!

[android654]

How can you make an assertion that it was purely physical if the whole thing is shrouded in mystery? Your whole argument's based off of nothing since we know nothing other than they were involved sometime ago and it didn't end amicably.

Jacob makes it very clear that he mourned his father's death ten years ago and put the man to rest then. There's no way to know that those feelings have nothing to do with their sexual relationship since neither one wants to discover it. If Miranda belittles him do much wouldn't she treat their relationship with just as little respect? If that's the case I'm sure she wouldn't even bother with him or at least tell Shepard it's one of the few mistakes she's made. The fact that she steers away from it and does the same shows equal parts of dissapointment in how it ended.

Your argument about her respecting him makes no sense if she's "keeping a promise to a friend" like you claim. Considering how guarded they both are as people, asking about his father would've taken a lot of intimacy between the two of them for Hinton bring it up, not to mention ask for help. The fact that she did corroborates that since Miranda is not the type of person to take pity and help someone she saw as being beneath her.

[enayasoul]

Maybe Miranda snooped too much into Jacob's background/life... maybe that killed it. For example, you can see that with Miranda knowing a lot about Oriana's boyfriend. His broken bone at a young age and his parents owning a restaurant on the Citadel?

Yes, Jacob is naive and has a conscience.  I'd have to agree that Miranda doesn't respect Jacob.  Unless she berates him in order to make him step up and accomplish the unthinkable?

Modifié par enayasoul, 18 janvier 2012 - 06:18 .

[MisterJB]

android654 wrote...
Jacob makes it very clear that he mourned his father's death ten years ago and put the man to rest then. There's no way to know that those feelings have nothing to do with their sexual relationship since neither one wants to discover it.

Maybe because they know there's nothing left there?

If Miranda belittles him do much wouldn't she treat their relationship with just as little respect? If that's the case I'm sure she wouldn't even bother with him or at least tell Shepard it's one of the few mistakes she's made. The fact that she steers away from it and does the same shows equal parts of dissapointment in how it ended

Or, despite not respecting him due to certain aspects of his personality, Miranda still cares about him due to other things. She might think he is a good man who never wronged her and did not deserve the pain she put him through when she left. It's just as valid interpretation as yours.

Your argument about her respecting him makes no sense if she's "keeping a promise to a friend" like you claim. Considering how guarded they both are as people, asking about his father would've taken a lot of intimacy between the two of them for Hinton bring it up, not to mention ask for help.

 Jacob can't even tell what promise she is referring to and this is Miranda, she knows the eyecolor of the boy Oriana (another person who she cared for but couldn't have respected before meeting her) has a crush on. There's no reason to believe he ever asked her for help.

The fact that she did corroborates that since Miranda is not the type of person to take pity and help someone she saw as being beneath her.

That's not true. On Thane's LM, she says this to the salarians "Relax, we're here to help you."

Modifié par MisterJB, 18 janvier 2012 - 06:30 .

[MisterJB]

Also, it is possible that we are neglecting what could be the the biggest insight into their relationship. "If I knew what makes her tick, I'd either be with her or dead"

Jacob does not knows what makes Miranda tick. What does he mean by this? Could this imply that Jacob tried to hit on Miranda but failed and we are just reading too much into it? Or, despite their relationship, Jacob never actually managed to get Miranda to open up to him and all he saw was the Ice Queen personality?

[mereck7980]

MisterJB wrote...

Also, it is possible that we are neglecting what could be the the biggest insight into their relationship. "If I knew what makes her tick, I'd either be with her or dead"

Jacob does not knows what makes Miranda tick. What does he mean by this? Could this imply that Jacob tried to hit on Miranda but failed and we are just reading too much into it? Or, despite their relationship, Jacob never actually managed to get Miranda to open up to him and all he saw was the Ice Queen personality?

He also says that it takes a better man than him to handle a woman like Miranda.  Like you said, Jacob was never able to get past the walls she uses to keep herself detatched from those she interacts with.  Nothing against Jacob, but he just wasn't a good match long term for Miranda. 

Can I also just say I haven't posted on this thread for a long time, and it absoulutely amazes me that this thing is longer than 1000 pages.  No one will ever be able to deny the veracity and tenaciousness of Miranda Lawson's fanbase.  

[Ieldra]

My thoughts on a few points that came up on the thread while I was sleeping:

Jacob and Miranda
I think the evidence strongly suggests that Miranda broke the relationship off and that Jacob wasn't happy about it. It also suggests that there was less emotional investment on Miranda's part than on Jacob's, though how much less is impossible to say since Miranda never comments on it. Of course there are emotional remnants from their relationship. Those always remain if you break up in a mature and reasonably peaceful way. To classify those as "unresolved feelings" is overinterpreting things.
Miranda's behaviour towards Jacob implies that there is still some friendship, but also a certain lack of respect. It is plausible that this is tied to the fact that Jacob is not on her level and/or doesn't really know what he wants (as comments from Jack and Samara suggest)

Comparing Shepard and Miranda
Shepard has certain heroic qualities - determination, physical and mental resilience, inspired leadership and a natural authority that makes others bend to his will - in which he has no match except for his counterpart, the Illusive Man, who substitutes charisma and a masterful manipulation skill and whose mental resilience will, I believe, be shown to put Shepard's to shame in ME3. Shepard also has a much higher physical strength because of his upgrades, given how he lifts the steel beam trapping Zaeed on Zorya or the platform wreckage at the end of the SM.
--
Miranda is undoubtedly Shepard's intellectual superior and possibly even a better tactician. Personally, I give my Shepard a background where he's closer to her intellectually than the game lets him be and interpret his in-game persona as the "Commander Shepard mask", but with her genetic enhancements and the best education money can buy Miranda remains unmatched. Likely her enhancements have also given her a better general health and her endurance should be impressive as well.
--
More than any other possible couple in the ME series Miranda and Shepard are on the same level but for different archetypes, thus complementing each other extremely well. They're both superior in their primary aspects. To some extent you could say Shepard is the heart, Miranda the mind. Alone, each of them is hugely impressive. Together - well, if they remain together after the war, the galaxy won't be the same after they're done with it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 janvier 2012 - 09:15 .

[ThomGau]

1100 pages Bravo guys !

Thank you for these interpretations of yours Ieldra, I agree with this .

For me, I've already said that but  Miranda's past relationship with Jacob was mostly meant to give her an emotional background we won't see in the game . She wouldn't tell us about it, obviously . At first because feelings shouldn't interfere, then you can see she's completely moved from that after Jacob's LM and if you choose to romance her, why would she talk about it ?
I assume they developped feelings for each other naturally, afterall there must have been through a lot together with Cerberus . For sure, it wasn't a serious relationship, given how Miranda was reluctant at first with Shepard she must have probably done the same with Jacob, feelings could jeopardize them . The guy doesn't know what he wants so she got bored of him .  She still respects him even though they have conflicts : Jacob's unique dialogue on Omega and Illium ( if you bring her with you ), what to do with Legion after the Reaper IFF mission ...


As for comparing Miranda and Shepard's skills, I think they physically are now pretty much equal (after Lazarus) .
Shepard, as a male, must have more strength and stamina but she is beats him with her biotics and body reflexes /synchronization in my opinion .
Where they are different is mostly in terms of intelligence and leadership/authority .
Miranda can't be matched on the intelligence, even though I RP my Shep rather smart as well . Though she doesn't have " that fire " he has, even if she is a very competent operative .

In one word, I think both of them embody perfectly human advancement ( this makes me think even more that they really are a perfect match for each other ) . They are augmented human specimen, one genetically and one cybernetically, they are the future of humanity . All of this makes me think of Deus Ex for some reason .

Modifié par ThomGau, 18 janvier 2012 - 10:42 .

[Berg]

Did Jacob not have some other line about the relationship? I cannot find anything on YouTube, but I remember getting the impression that he was a bit jealous/miffed about Shepard pursuing it. Well of course he didn't say it explicitly, but that was what I got. Something like: “I don’t feel comfortable talking about this” or “you should discuss this with Miranda”.

Anyway I don’t see Miranda having any romantic feelings for him. Seems more like she cares for him, which is a much better indication that she is over the relationship than if she were bitter.