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[wright1978]

Ieldra2 wrote...

My thoughts on a few points that came up on the thread while I was sleeping:

Jacob and Miranda
I think the evidence strongly suggests that Miranda broke the relationship off and that Jacob wasn't happy about it. It also suggests that there was less emotional investment on Miranda's part than on Jacob's, though how much less is impossible to say since Miranda never comments on it. Of course there are emotional remnants from their relationship. Those always remain if you break up in a mature and reasonably peaceful way. To classify those as "unresolved feelings" is overinterpreting things.
Miranda's behaviour towards Jacob implies that there is still some friendship, but also a certain lack of respect. It is plausible that this is tied to the fact that Jacob is not on her level and/or doesn't really know what he wants (as comments from Jack and Samara suggest)

Comparing Shepard and Miranda
Shepard has certain heroic qualities - determination, physical and mental resilience, inspired leadership and a natural authority that makes others bend to his will - in which he has no match except for his counterpart, the Illusive Man, who substitutes charisma and a masterful manipulation skill and whose mental resilience will, I believe, be shown to put Shepard's to shame in ME3. Shepard also has a much higher physical strength because of his upgrades, given how he lifts the steel beam trapping Zaeed on Zorya or the platform wreckage at the end of the SM.
--
Miranda is undoubtedly Shepard's intellectual superior and possibly even a better tactician. Personally, I give my Shepard a background where he's closer to her intellectually than the game lets him be and interpret his in-game persona as the "Commander Shepard mask", but with her genetic enhancements and the best education money can buy Miranda remains unmatched. Likely her enhancements have also given her a better general health and her endurance should be impressive as well.
--
More than any other possible couple in the ME series Miranda and Shepard are on the same level but for different archetypes, thus complementing each other extremely well. They're both superior in their primary aspects. To some extent you could say Shepard is the heart, Miranda the mind. Alone, each of them is hugely impressive. Together - well, if they remain together after the war, the galaxy won't be the same after they're done with it.

Agree very much. Usually my Sheps are rasher than Miranda and like the fact her caution can have a balancing efect on Shep too.

[snfonseka]

Source: http://deadendthrills.com/

[jtav]

I think Miranda does have feelings for him at the time of ME2, or at least the game can be plausibly interpreted that way. The debriefing scene has more romanticism in it than either of their romance arcs. I'd give my proverbial right arm for some of the looks they exchange. Speaking only of ME2 and without regard for spoilers, I find Jacob preferable to Shepard as a romantic partner for her.

[wright1978]

jtav wrote...

I think Miranda does have feelings for him at the time of ME2, or at least the game can be plausibly interpreted that way. The debriefing scene has more romanticism in it than either of their romance arcs. I'd give my proverbial right arm for some of the looks they exchange. Speaking only of ME2 and without regard for spoilers, I find Jacob preferable to Shepard as a romantic partner for her.

I find the idea of Jacob as a preferable romantic partner comical. Each to their own i suppose.

[jtav]

I wouldn't wish ME2 Shepard on anyone. ME3 Shepard? He followed me home. Can I keep him?

[CrutchCricket]

android654 wrote...

How can you make an assertion that it was purely physical if the whole thing is shrouded in mystery? Your whole argument's based off of nothing since we know nothing other than they were involved sometime ago and it didn't end amicably.

The same way you can make one that it's not.

Jacob makes it very clear that he mourned his father's death ten years ago and put the man to rest then. There's no way to know that those feelings have nothing to do with their sexual relationship since neither one wants to discover it.

There's no way to know for sure but when you find out your father is a monster who drugged women and kept them as sex slaves for 10 years what are you going to be more emotional about, that or a girlfriend you had an indeterminate time ago that you were indeterminately close to? Please, that wouldn't even come up. And again, she made a friend a promise, she kept it.  Remember how important loyalty is to Miranda? That.

asking about his father would've taken a lot of intimacy between the two of them for Hinton bring it up, not to mention ask for help.

Right you mean the same way Shepard asked about Miranda's father, that was totally intimate right? It couldn't have just come up in normal conversation and then be expanded on during the flow. And we don't know how much help Jacob asked for anyway. Seeing as how all Miranda did was tip him off, Jacob probably just said "man, I wish I knew what happened to my dad" and Miranda kept that in mind.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 18 janvier 2012 - 01:51 .

[JosephDucreux]

From what I could gather, I'd say that the breakup between Miri and Jacob was mutual, but it had a lot to do with the insecurities of both parties.

Jacob can't let go, and Miranda feels like she's let him down, thus leading to the events of Aeia.

[jtav]

And, well, she broke Cerberus protocol for him. She cares for him, even if the relationship didn't work out. I was hoping ME3 would see Jacob mature into someone worthy of her. I was hoping.

[JosephDucreux]

The only thing that BW can do to get my respect and my dosh back is to do this:

Have a mission where you're closing in on TIM, and the indoc's fully taken hold and he has all these biotic-like powers, only stronger. So you're hunting for him with your entire squad and he just literally pops outta nowhere and shoots Tali/Liara/Garrus in the face, killing her/him before incapacitating your entire squad...before proceeding to strangle the crap out of you. If you have a disloyal/dead Miranda, you're dead, Reapers win, trololo. But the only way you and your squad survives is if you have a loyal/romanced Miranda, and she helps you kill off TIM. So...I herd you killed Miranda cause you weren't smart enough to like her...

[nelly21]

jtav wrote...

And, well, she broke Cerberus protocol for him. She cares for him, even if the relationship didn't work out. I was hoping ME3 would see Jacob mature into someone worthy of her. I was hoping.

I don't think Jacob is that bad. I honestly believe that people dislike him because he has a "deal with it" attitude. His father who he respected growing up turns out to be an ***hole and he barely misses a beat. He packs it in and moves on. When you talk to him in a nonromantic conversation, he mostly tells you he isn't very good with sharing.

Miranda, on the other hand, clearly gets emotionally attached. She may hide it. But it comes out in the romance. Particularly, in the don't die dialogue. I imagined the break up to be mutual. But I wouldn't go so far as to say he isn't "worthy" of her. Conrad Verner isn't worthy of Miranda. Jacob and her just don't mix.

[Ieldra]

I must admit that I like Jacob, in part exactly because of this "I'll deal with this myself and it's none of your business" attitude. In a way he's like Miranda - he opens up to a femShep who romances him, though more slowly (as would've been fitting for Miranda as well).

Having said that, I think that he is indeed not on Miranda's level. Sooner or later he'd end up as a kept man and lose whatever remains of Miranda's respect. He may have the potential to become something more, but honestly I can't see it. Miranda alone is a force in her own right. Jacob alone - not so much.

@Joseph Ducreux:
Be honest. There was never any chance of that scenario. I would've preferred something more subtle anyway. 

Modifié par Ieldra2, 18 janvier 2012 - 02:59 .

[menagrabinna]

You know--it's ironic. Miranda is definitely the character in ME2 that the romance is more...physically driven (example you get experience for checking out her rear). Well--the fan art for her is by far the less physical. I've seen more renditions of nude liaras, and ridiculously large busted Tali than Miranda. Fans are funny that way.

[CrutchCricket]

I don't think that Jacob will necessarily end up a kept man. In all fairness we're comparing him to some pretty extraordinary people. To say he doesn't measure up to Space Jesus or the girl with the perfectly designed genes who also resurrects people is hardly an insult. Shepard and Miranda are larger than life. Jacob's just an ordinary guy. I'd actually ship him with Kelly. They never interact but I think it could work. Then again I haven't heard the details of his ME3 appearance (just the grumblings of it). I'm still working on ME2 data alone.

[Ieldra]

menagrabinna wrote...
You know--it's ironic. Miranda is definitely the character in ME2 that the romance is more...physically driven (example you get experience for checking out her rear). Well--the fan art for her is by far the less physical. I've seen more renditions of nude liaras, and ridiculously large busted Tali than Miranda. Fans are funny that way.

No, you don't get experience for checking out her rear.

As for the fan art phenomenon, I do not think it's all that surprising. As a rule, Miranda may be presented with an in-your-face sexuality, but her personality, I would think, is rather offputting to the T&A faction among the players.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
I don't think that Jacob will necessarily end up a kept man. In all fairness we're comparing him to some pretty extraordinary people. To say he doesn't measure up to Space Jesus or the girl with the perfectly designed genes who also resurrects people is hardly an insult. Shepard and Miranda are larger than life. Jacob's just an ordinary guy. I'd actually ship him with Kelly. They never interact but I think it could work. Then again I haven't heard the details of his ME3 appearance (just the grumblings of it). I'm still working on ME2 data alone.

A kept man if paired with Miranda. As you said, Shepard and Miranda are larger than life and Jacob is not. When I said he couldn't keep up with her, I didn't mean it in an insulting way. Remember, I like him. Your idea of pairing him with Kelly sounds nice. If he can get over her attraction to alien w....*hrmph*.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

snfonseka wrote...



Source: http://deadendthrills.com/

<3:blink:<3

How did someone get that Camera Angle? I wasn't in the game.

And you all are still talking about Jacob? geez:?

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 18 janvier 2012 - 03:12 .

[android654]

CrutchCricket wrote...

android654 wrote...

How can you make an assertion that it was purely physical if the whole thing is shrouded in mystery? Your whole argument's based off of nothing since we know nothing other than they were involved sometime ago and it didn't end amicably.

The same way you can make one that it's not.

Jacob makes it very clear that he mourned his father's death ten years ago and put the man to rest then. There's no way to know that those feelings have nothing to do with their sexual relationship since neither one wants to discover it.

There's no way to know for sure but when you find out your father is a monster who drugged women and kept them as sex slaves for 10 years what are you going to be more emotional about, that or a girlfriend you had an indeterminate time ago that you were indeterminately close to? Please, that wouldn't even come up. And again, she made a friend a promise, she kept it.  Remember how important loyalty is to Miranda? That.

asking about his father would've taken a lot of intimacy between the two of them for Hinton bring it up, not to mention ask for help.

Right you mean the same way Shepard asked about Miranda's father, that was totally intimate right? It couldn't have just come up in normal conversation and then be expanded on during the flow. And we don't know how much help Jacob asked for anyway. Seeing as how all Miranda did was tip him off, Jacob probably just said "man, I wish I knew what happened to my dad" and Miranda kept that in mind.

I'm inferring from the dialogue that's actually there. You seem to be injecting ideas that aren't there.

Jacob's father was barely around when he was thought to be alive, and Jacob believed he was dead. I'm not sure what your experience is, but few people would morn a neglectful parent. There aren't too many emotions there because the man was essentially a stranger to him. Emotions can be invested in anyone and to some people they relationships they make outside of thier family can be several times stronger. Seeing how Miranda affects him on a personal level I'd say he thinks a lot more about her than his father and is more concerned with what happens to her rather than him.

I was talking about Jacob. He's much more guarded than Miranda. Miranda will tell you certain things but thats only because you're shepard and some plot induced stupidity has to be injected to make your character Jesus and have everyone fall enough for him to open up right away. Jacob doesn't tell anyone his problems this is very clear and slip up like that "I wish I knew what happened to my dad" is out of character for him. It seems like she got to him and got him to talk about himself and this came through while she was in his head.

Seriously this anti-jacob thing everyone's on makes no sense. By my opinion no one thus far in the whole Mass Effect universe is "good enough" for Miranda. Perhaps maybe Grunt because he was also designed to be perfect just as she was and with a bit of prodding I think he would prove to be quite intelligent, but this is another topic altogether. With the impressive feats aside I think Jacob seems like a better match than a paragon Shepard. His only reall failing is that he seems to be hard on himself for the wrong reasons and it impedes any progress he seems to make.

[android654]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...
I don't think that Jacob will necessarily end up a kept man. In all fairness we're comparing him to some pretty extraordinary people. To say he doesn't measure up to Space Jesus or the girl with the perfectly designed genes who also resurrects people is hardly an insult. Shepard and Miranda are larger than life. Jacob's just an ordinary guy. I'd actually ship him with Kelly. They never interact but I think it could work. Then again I haven't heard the details of his ME3 appearance (just the grumblings of it). I'm still working on ME2 data alone.

A kept man if paired with Miranda. As you said, Shepard and Miranda are larger than life and Jacob is not. When I said he couldn't keep up with her, I didn't mean it in an insulting way. Remember, I like him. Your idea of pairing him with Kelly sounds nice. If he can get over her attraction to alien w....*hrmph*.

Kelly? where did that come from?

Kelly's like an emotional and psychological Florence Nightingale, she would probably go for Thane because she'd want to soothe his pain. Jacob doesn't advertise his discomfort.

jtav wrote...

And, well, she broke Cerberus protocol for him. She cares for him, even if the relationship didn't work out. I was hoping ME3 would see Jacob mature into someone worthy of her. I was hoping.

I was thinking the same thing for a Miranda that wasn't locked in a romance with Shepard.

[jtav]

Oh, I think there are lots of characters good enough for her. I've personally written her with Liara, Kaidan, and Thane. ME3 Shep is a catch too.

[android654]

Kaidan seems a bit too nice for Miranda, like a bit of a pushover. I can see something sparking between her and Liara stemming from the love of their work but I'd have some trouble seeing it unfolding into something extremely passionate (I'm still reading through portrait). I'm not sure how they changed Shepard's personalities in ME3 but how big of a jump could they have made form 2 to 3?

[viserion]

Speaking of characters good enough for Miranda, outside of the ME universe, who do you guys think would be a good match for her?

Someone I think she could get along with is Deus Ex: Human Revolution's Adam Jensen.

[CrutchCricket]

android654 wrote...


I'm inferring from the dialogue that's actually there. You seem to be injecting ideas that aren't there.

Fine, I'm making an assumption. We all do. As there is no evidence to the contrary I can and will stick with it.

Jacob's father was barely around when he was thought to be alive, and Jacob believed he was dead. I'm not sure what your experience is, but few people would morn a neglectful parent. There aren't too many emotions there because the man was essentially a stranger to him. Emotions can be invested in anyone and to some people they relationships they make outside of thier family can be several times stronger. Seeing how Miranda affects him on a personal level I'd say he thinks a lot more about her than his father and is more concerned with what happens to her rather than him.

You're joking right? You're honestly arguing that just because he made his peace with his dad's disappearance years ago, the sudden discovery that he's alive will leave him completely unfazed? And what's more, he's supposed to not give a **** that his dad is not only alive but literally enslaving people that depended on him?  What does that say about him?
Ridiculous. Jacob is far from fine or indifferent about it. Like we said before though, he keeps that to himself. I don't think he dwells on it past the mission. "The man's dead, the body's just catching up" seems genuine. But he was feeling before that and it had nothing to do with Miranda.

I was talking about Jacob. He's much more guarded than Miranda. Miranda will tell you certain things but thats only because you're shepard and some plot induced stupidity has to be injected to make your character Jesus and have everyone fall enough for him to open up right away. Jacob doesn't tell anyone his problems this is very clear and slip up like that "I wish I knew what happened to my dad" is out of character for him. It seems like she got to him and got him to talk about himself and this came through while she was in his head.

Miranda doesn't reveal many personal details about her father until the loyalty mission when she's "put in the unfortunate position of asking for help" I don't think that makes her so much more open than Jacob. The point was that family can come up in casual conversation. Maybe it did and Jacob was suspiciously evasive about his father so Miranda looked into it. She's good at reading people. And a friendship is sufficient to make a promise to track him down and to think this would be a good thing for him. Assuming anything more is unfounded and if you're getting on my case for making unfounded assumptions, see you don't make them yourself.

Seriously this anti-jacob thing everyone's on makes no sense.

Who's anti-Jacob? I don't think anyone here's expressed even mild dislike of the character beyond some people finding him dull. You're the one pushing a Jacob/Miranda thing and the rest of us aren't on board with that to say the least. That's it. Really this is turning into a shipping war and I for one would rather not partake further. Can we talk about something else?

Kelly? where did that come from?

Kelly's like an emotional and psychological Florence Nightingale, she would probably go for Thane because she'd want to soothe his pain. Jacob doesn't advertise his discomfort.

From my mind. Like I said there's no evidence for it, just something I think could work. And even assuming Kelly is one dimensional and only wants to play Team Mom (I think there's more to her but whatever), I doubt Jacob needs to "advertise his discomfort". She'd probably pick up on it if she spent any time with him. Besides what's wrong with things starting the everyday way? She's attracted, flirts with him, finds out about his issues later? She doesn't need to pysychoanalyze him right away to strike up a relationship with him (or at all for that matter).

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 18 janvier 2012 - 03:58 .

[jtav]

Shepard is no longer quite so smug. He's allowed to feel fear and doubt, and some of his dialogue is very intelligent. And, for the first time, I believe he might actually love Miranda.

[AgitatedLemon]

CrutchCricket wrote...

I don't think that Jacob will necessarily end up a kept man. In all fairness we're comparing him to some pretty extraordinary people. To say he doesn't measure up to Space Jesus or the girl with the perfectly designed genes who also resurrects people is hardly an insult. Shepard and Miranda are larger than life. Jacob's just an ordinary guy. I'd actually ship him with Kelly. They never interact but I think it could work. Then again I haven't heard the details of his ME3 appearance (just the grumblings of it). I'm still working on ME2 data alone.

@bold1- This. I think I said something like this a page or 3 back.

@bold2-  I'd pair him with Kasumi, at least as an experiment. She digs him, why not give it a shot?

[nelly21]

Wintersect wrote...

Speaking of characters good enough for Miranda, outside of the ME universe, who do you guys think would be a good match for her?

Someone I think she could get along with is Deus Ex: Human Revolution's Adam Jensen.

Jensen is a little dead inside after augmentation. I think if they weren't seperated by centuries post AC II Ezio Auditore would be a good fit. He intelligent, physically superior and very wise by the time Revelations comes around.