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[AgitatedLemon]

CrutchCricket wrote...

android654 wrote...
There's been nothing to show that benezia or samara are stronger than Jack. They do go out of their way to talk about how unbelievably strong Jack's biotic's are.

Except they're both asari, natural biotics with no need for amps and are both around 1000 years old.

Jack is the strongest human biotic. But she only ranks as average among asari.

Never mind that strength, raw strength alone isn't always enough to win a fight. Just some cautionary tips.

Actually Casey Hudson (I believe it was him anyway, some BW employee) admitted that Samara is on the level of a matriarch, and that Jack is more powerful than Samara, in terms of raw biotics, but Samara is more disciplined.

So Jack is more powerful than most asari.

[android654]

MisterJB wrote...

android654 wrote...
Formally educated? no question. More intelligent, that depends on interpretation of the term.

Right, the so called "street smarts" some people have. We've dismissed that claim.

Smarter in a fight, clearly not. Miranda can spend hours upon hours training how to fight, but it doesn't compensate for real world experience and I doubt anyone would question Jack's ability to kill people.

Are you questioning Miranda's real world experience? Her argument on why she should be the one leading the Fire Team is because she is the most experienced person on the team. She's been with Cerberus for 20 years.

Street smarts are kind of important if you live on earth. Ever gone into the wrong neighborhood or got mugged? Bet you wished you knew what to do. You need both, and both characters lack different ones.

I'm saying being a serial killer/pirate/mercenary/convict with thousands of deaths who loves to kill under her belt beats a scientist who's only done covert operations. Let me also remind you the point of covert operations is to do them without fighting because no one is supposed to know they're taking place. She may know how to defend herself, protect herself and kill someone if need be, but she's no killer that can slaughter people for fun.

The only other person on the whole ship who's probably killed as many times as she has is Zaeed, and he's ancient.

[AgitatedLemon]

android654 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

android654 wrote...

Guys, guys, guys. Its cut-scene Jack. Her biotics are unmatched in that arena. She's the strongest human bitoic so clearly stronger than Miranda in that arena, and they're on the ship, do you know how dangerous it is to fire a gun on a plane? Imagine in space.

Semantics. Cut scene or not, Jack wouldn't win. At most she'd be able to pin Miranda or Shepard against a wall before the other pulls a weapon and shoots her square in the head and smears HER on the walls, and that's assuming she doesn't accidentally blow herself up.

Miranda and Shepard (Both of which are very skilled with weapons, and my Sentinel Shep is a biotic and tech person) versus Jack, Miranda and Shepard win.

For being the most powerful human biotic, Jack can't even produce a singularity, which lowly Adept Shepard can.

Jack is a glass cannon, and a loose one at that. She has the raw power, but almost no discipline, unlike Samara, or any other biotic encountered.

@your edit

There's always Casey Hudson. Even he admits that Jack, while stupidly powerful, isn't as disciplined as other biotics. She's just as likely to blow herself and the Normandy up as she is to make a shockwave.

I originally said if Shepard was 5 seconds later, she'd be dead, implying Jack V Miranda alone. The fact that you have to pin both Shepard (the space messiah who never dies) and Miranda to stop one woman, kindof proves my point.

The only reason I bother bringing Shepard into it is because he's scripted to appear. Miranda by herself can easily take Jack, for various reasons I've already gone over.

[AgitatedLemon]

android654 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

android654 wrote...
Formally educated? no question. More intelligent, that depends on interpretation of the term.

Right, the so called "street smarts" some people have. We've dismissed that claim.

Smarter in a fight, clearly not. Miranda can spend hours upon hours training how to fight, but it doesn't compensate for real world experience and I doubt anyone would question Jack's ability to kill people.

Are you questioning Miranda's real world experience? Her argument on why she should be the one leading the Fire Team is because she is the most experienced person on the team. She's been with Cerberus for 20 years.

Street smarts are kind of important if you live on earth. Ever gone into the wrong neighborhood or got mugged? Bet you wished you knew what to do. You need both, and both characters lack different ones.

I'm saying being a serial killer/pirate/mercenary/convict with thousands of deaths who loves to kill under her belt beats a scientist who's only done covert operations. Let me also remind you the point of covert operations is to do them without fighting because no one is supposed to know they're taking place. She may know how to defend herself, protect herself and kill someone if need be, but she's no killer that can slaughter people for fun.

The only other person on the whole ship who's probably killed as many times as she has is Zaeed, and he's ancient.

Zaeed is only 40 years old. Not exactly "ancient".

And nowhere is it implied that Jack has THOUSANDS of kills on her record.


If we're going by kill count, then Shepard has eradicated almost the entire galaxy.

[CrutchCricket]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Actually Casey Hudson (I believe it was him anyway, some BW employee) admitted that Samara is on the level of a matriarch, and that Jack is more powerful than Samara, in terms of raw biotics, but Samara is more disciplined.

So Jack is more powerful than most asari.

Seriously? I'd have to see a source.

Then I'd probably still call bull****. I see that on the same level as saying Starkiller's more powerful than Yoda.

[flemm]

android654 wrote...
The only other person on the whole ship who's probably killed as many times as she has is Zaeed, and he's ancient.

Ok, but who has she killed? Anyone who was even close to her as a biotic? Anyone with Miranda's level of training and experience, not to mention other skills?

I doubt it. Slaughtering a bunch of people who were nowhere near a match for her really doesn't say much.

Modifié par flemm, 19 janvier 2012 - 11:01 .

[AgitatedLemon]

CrutchCricket wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Actually Casey Hudson (I believe it was him anyway, some BW employee) admitted that Samara is on the level of a matriarch, and that Jack is more powerful than Samara, in terms of raw biotics, but Samara is more disciplined.

So Jack is more powerful than most asari.

Seriously? I'd have to see a source.

Then I'd probably still call bull****. I see that on the same level as saying Starkiller's more powerful than Yoda.

Like I said, it might have been him (Either Casey or Corey, started with a "c"). It was a tweet. Check the twitter thread in General.

As for Starkiller v. Yoda...


*Replays ending to Force Unleashed* Starkiller brought down a star destroyer from lower orbit. /debate.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 19 janvier 2012 - 11:00 .

[cbutz]

Here is what happens:
Jack, in a rage at Cerberus/Miranda, throws a strong warp/singularity, shock wave etc. that is not very accurate, Miranda (being athletic) dives out of the way and receives at best no damage and at worst broken ribs, arms, internal external injuries etc.) Unfortunately Jack's biotic attack blows a hole in the hull.. they both die by either vacuum or radiation, unless EDI can bring up a Mass Effect field in time but who knows how long that takes. So the winner is no one.

[jtav]

Jack has more raw biotic power. Miranda sends one merc flying. Jack decimates three YMIRs. What Miranda does have is more tools in the tookbox. She's smarter, better trained, stronger, and faster. But Jack is the bette biotic, and has excellent control of her abilities.

Modifié par jtav, 19 janvier 2012 - 11:07 .

[android654]

cbutz wrote...

Here is what happens:
Jack, in a rage at Cerberus/Miranda, throws a strong warp/singularity, shock wave etc. that is not very accurate, Miranda (being athletic) dives out of the way and receives at best no damage and at worst broken ribs, arms, internal external injuries etc.) Unfortunately Jack's biotic attack blows a hole in the hull.. they both die by either vacuum or radiation, unless EDI can bring up a Mass Effect field in time but who knows how long that takes. So the winner is no one.

When you put it like that, the winner is Tali since she no loner has any competition.

[AgitatedLemon]

cbutz wrote...

Here is what happens:
Jack, in a rage at Cerberus/Miranda, throws a strong warp/singularity, shock wave etc. that is not very accurate, Miranda (being athletic) dives out of the way and receives at best no damage and at worst broken ribs, arms, internal external injuries etc.) Unfortunately Jack's biotic attack blows a hole in the hull.. they both die by either vacuum or radiation, unless EDI can bring up a Mass Effect field in time but who knows how long that takes. So the winner is no one.

Jack would be the one dumb enough to tear the hull open.

[AgitatedLemon]

jtav wrote...

Jack has more raw biotic power. Miranda sends one merc flying. Jack decimates three YMIRs. What Miranda does have is more tools in the tookbox. She's smarter, better trained, stronger, and faster.

I don't know if the YMIR mech scene is a strong enough point.

Ignoring gameplay rules, any biotic who specializes in distortion (Which Miranda appears to, given Warp) could have done what Jack did. 

Hell, the Vanguard's heavy melee in ME3 is the same falcon punch that Jack uses on the mechs.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 19 janvier 2012 - 11:09 .

[cbutz]

Well its more that her powers are more brute and more AoE damage that it would tear a hole. Having said that it is entirely possible that Miranda could tear a hole as well, they both are human after all.

[MisterJB]

android654 wrote...

Street smarts are kind of important if you live on earth. Ever gone into the wrong neighborhood or got mugged? Bet you wished you knew what to do. You need both, and both characters lack different ones.
I'm saying being a serial killer/pirate/mercenary/convict with thousands of deaths who loves to kill under her belt beats a scientist who's only done covert operations. Let me also remind you the point of covert operations is to do them without fighting because no one is supposed to know they're taking place.

You do not know what type of missions Miranda has done. You do not know which neighborhoods she went to.
Oh sure, Cerberus is meant to be a secret organization. But remember some of the missions in ME2, on plague filled slums or war zones? Those were Cerberus missions too. Miranda is not just a scientist, she clearly has experience leading people. There is no reason to believe all she ever did was espionage on places like Illium or the Citadel.

She may know how to defend herself, protect herself and kill someone if need be, but she's no killer that can slaughter people for fun.

I count that as a point in her advantage. Besides, have you seen Jack's style of fighting? She is a cannon. Powerful though she may, it's usually the more skilled person who wins.

The only other person on the whole ship who's probably killed as many times as she has is Zaeed, and he's ancient.

Going on a killing spree is not very impressive. Tell me stories where Jack killed a Krogan Battlemaster, an Asari Matriarch or a Drell Assassin and then I'll be impressed.

Modifié par MisterJB, 19 janvier 2012 - 11:10 .

[AgitatedLemon]

cbutz wrote...

Well its more that her powers are more brute and more AoE damage that it would tear a hole. Having said that it is entirely possible that Miranda could tear a hole as well, they both are human after all.

The difference being Miranda has the common sense to NOT tear the hull open.


Pull out Carnifex -- Boom headshot -- Jack is smeared on the walls.

[Prudii Aden]

Can we not get into a Jack vs Miranda argument again? It's pointless.

[CrutchCricket]

AgitatedLemon wrote...
As for Starkiller v. Yoda...


*Replays ending to Force Unleashed* Starkiller brought down a star destroyer from lower orbit. /debate.

Yet he still dies when he faces the Emperor and even more like a b!tch in the dark side ending... Hmm something tells me that despite the vast enjoyment that game brings, it should be taken with a grain of salt regarding Force powers.

Anyway, back to Mass Effect... I'll look for that quote but I am still prepared to call bull**** to Bioware's face (in the astronomically small chance that they actually nerd out with me)

[Ryzaki]

MisterJB wrote...
Going on a killing spree is not very impressive. Tell me stories where Jack killed a Krogan Battlemaster, an Asari Matriarch or a Drell Assassin and then I'll be impressed.

Like when she took down a turian warship? (the one that destroyed that outlaw colony of hers?) 

I don't like Jack. But she has PLENTY of experience fighting hard targets.

That said Jack is very volitle and liable to get lured into a trap. So yes I can see Miranda defeating her. But she would have to fight smart. A headon fight would be foolish.

I'd say Samara was biotically stronger and more experience then Jack though. (same with Morinth). They've had far longer to learn their limits and what they could do.

Modifié par Ryzaki, 19 janvier 2012 - 11:17 .

[android654]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

cbutz wrote...

Well its more that her powers are more brute and more AoE damage that it would tear a hole. Having said that it is entirely possible that Miranda could tear a hole as well, they both are human after all.

The difference being Miranda has the common sense to NOT tear the hull open.


Pull out Carnifex -- Boom headshot -- Jack is smeared on the walls.

You can't kill any biotic with a head shot since they all have barries up all the time. So it would have to be six consecutive shot follwed by a seventh to hit their flesh. And again she's the most powerful biotic, so i think it would take a few more shots than that. Who's going to stand still and get shot without doing anything?

[AgitatedLemon]

CrutchCricket wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...
As for Starkiller v. Yoda...


*Replays ending to Force Unleashed* Starkiller brought down a star destroyer from lower orbit. /debate.

Yet he still dies when he faces the Emperor and even more like a b!tch in the dark side ending... Hmm something tells me that despite the vast enjoyment that game brings, it should be taken with a grain of salt regarding Force powers.

Anyway, back to Mass Effect... I'll look for that quote but I am still prepared to call bull**** to Bioware's face (in the astronomically small chance that they actually nerd out with me)

The story is considered canon, despite the branching endings.

But enough of Star Wars, veering off topic.

[android654]

Prudii Aden wrote...

Can we not get into a Jack vs Miranda argument again? It's pointless.

We've had one before? This is the first I've heard of it.

[AgitatedLemon]

android654 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

cbutz wrote...

Well its more that her powers are more brute and more AoE damage that it would tear a hole. Having said that it is entirely possible that Miranda could tear a hole as well, they both are human after all.

The difference being Miranda has the common sense to NOT tear the hull open.


Pull out Carnifex -- Boom headshot -- Jack is smeared on the walls.

You can't kill any biotic with a head shot since they all have barries up all the time. So it would have to be six consecutive shot follwed by a seventh to hit their flesh. And again she's the most powerful biotic, so i think it would take a few more shots than that. Who's going to stand still and get shot without doing anything?

Where does it ever say that biotic barriers are always up 100% of the time?

[Ryzaki]

AgitatedLemon wrote...
Where does it ever say that biotic barriers are always up 100% of the time?

Nowhere. Even in LOTSB Liara's barrier being up when she wasn't expecting an attack was seen as "Paranoid but clever." by Vasir.

I'm guessing only paranoid/expecting an attack biotics would keep up a constant barrier. That's draining on their body.

[AgitatedLemon]

Ryzaki wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...
Where does it ever say that biotic barriers are always up 100% of the time?

Nowhere. Even in LOTSB Liara's barrier being up when she wasn't expecting an attack was seen as "Paranoid but clever." by Vasir.

I'm guessing only paranoid/expecting an attack biotics would keep up a constant barrier. That's draining on their body.

That's what I thought.

And, knowing Jack, she wouldn't sustain a long term barrier, considering how little disciplined she is.

[android654]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

android654 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

cbutz wrote...

Well its more that her powers are more brute and more AoE damage that it would tear a hole. Having said that it is entirely possible that Miranda could tear a hole as well, they both are human after all.

The difference being Miranda has the common sense to NOT tear the hull open.


Pull out Carnifex -- Boom headshot -- Jack is smeared on the walls.

You can't kill any biotic with a head shot since they all have barries up all the time. So it would have to be six consecutive shot follwed by a seventh to hit their flesh. And again she's the most powerful biotic, so i think it would take a few more shots than that. Who's going to stand still and get shot without doing anything?

Where does it ever say that biotic barriers are always up 100% of the time?

Barriers act the same as shields for adepts, which Jack is. Shepard seems to be the only one who's shield/barrier is dependent upon his N7 armor. So they both have them one during that fight and since Jack has more biotic power hers is thicker.

And to those claiming Miranda's "superior athleticism" over Jack...

http://www.youtube.c...AU75NBkw#t=359s

She moves quite impressively, and we've yet to see Miranda do anything or claim to be able to do anything as physically impressive.