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[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Crutch, no it's more that he does something to radically reshape the galaxy and I'm not sure about the politics afterward. He is responsible for saving her from a horrible fate in my latest fic, however.

And Matt isn't cowed. Just chivalrous.

I like that. In fact, Cyrus Shepard's attitude to Miranda has more than a hint of courtly love as well. She's his lady as well as his love. MIranda is sometimes exasperated by this but takes it in the spirit it's offered. A few hundred people who can't talk anymore, another few hundred who ask themselves to this day how this man made them do what he wanted, among other things, should be testament enough to the fact that this doesn't lessen him one bit.  And yeah, what he'll do after the war is hard to imagine for the same reason.  

[Ieldra]

AgitatedLemon wrote...
A lot of the minor renegade choices are just douche moments.

That's why I main paragon, but dip a small bit into renegade.

Can't say I agree. Some of them are, but not enough to avoid them as a rule. Just as for many Paragon options, what Shepard actually says is less cheesy and naive than what the dialogue wheel suggests, so what Shepard actually says in many Renegade options is less callous than what the wheel suggests. Also, some Renegade options are far more interesting than their boring Paragon alternatives.

Minor Renegade choices usually account for a significant fraction of my Renegade point total, since they have to balance out those major Renegade choices I (almost) never make - killing Samara, letting Jack kill Aresh, letting the workers on Zorya burn, not making Miranda speak to Oriana.

[JosephDucreux]

Some renegade moments are vastly preferable to the paragon ones, but most just come off as being a massive douchenozzle.

That being said, I could never resist the renegade kiss with Miri.

[JosephDucreux]

Miranda's romance could be 50% renegade and 50% paragon.

As for Jack, it was usually 100% paragon.

[Ieldra]

There's no Miranda picture on this page. Time to remedy that....

[AgitatedLemon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...
A lot of the minor renegade choices are just douche moments.

That's why I main paragon, but dip a small bit into renegade.

Can't say I agree. Some of them are, but not enough to avoid them as a rule. Just as for many Paragon options, what Shepard actually says is less cheesy and naive than what the dialogue wheel suggests, so what Shepard actually says in many Renegade options is less callous than what the wheel suggests. Also, some Renegade options are far more interesting than their boring Paragon alternatives.

Minor Renegade choices usually account for a significant fraction of my Renegade point total, since they have to balance out those major Renegade choices I (almost) never make - killing Samara, letting Jack kill Aresh, letting the workers on Zorya burn, not making Miranda speak to Oriana.

I was more or less referring to the interrupts and intimidate dialogues.

[AgitatedLemon]

Does anyone know the P/R threshold to win back Jack's loyalty after siding with Miranda?

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
(4) People change. After the war is done, Bioware is finished with telling their story of Shepard, and our Shepards can....develop along the paths we desire. If you wanted to tell yourself the story of a Shepard who is guilt-ridden about what he had to do in the war and ends up a drunk on Omega, all his badassery lost to history, then that's your prerogative. If you want to tell yourself the story of a Shepard who retires to family life, that's your prerogative, too. It's even possible to imagine Miranda cured of her infertility and putting her scientific/STG/whatever ambitions on hold for twenty years - which is a small part of her 200+-year-long life - to raise a family without that being out of character. If it's executed well. It's not what I'd imagine for her in my personal timeline, but it's not impossible.

[...]

(6) CrutchCricket, specifically in answer to your issues with jtav's Matt: I suggest that you read the third paragraph of Shadow War's epilogue. I say that the galaxy needs such a person just as much as his war incarnation. It is as inspiring to Miranda as she is to him.
Also your challenge to accept an turned-around scenario where Miranda plays the supportive girlfriend is not valid, because Miranda is an NPC, far more defined by the writing, while Shepard is your avatar. The game is made so that you can shape him. You can also influence her, but to a more limited extent.
And hmm....thinking about it, I can actually imagine a Miranda who becomes a famous classical musician, playing the violin, and never having anything to do with covert operations again more. It would need to be grounded well by writing, and of course it would not be my favorite scenario, but it's within the realm of possibility, and if done right, would get more curiosity than outrage from me. 

Like I said before, having not read jtav's work (for reasons already mentioned) I am open to the possiblity that I misunderstood. All I had to go on were the "supportive boyfriend" descriptions which I found quite irksome and her related distain for ME2's portrayal of Shepard (which was validated by her own admission). Though jtav hasn't addressed all my concerns directly what she and others have said lead me to believe that there is indeed more to the story so to speak and that Matt Shepard is still an impressive and influential character in his own right even if that is not manifested as military or politcal power. If that's the case I have no further complaint.

I also figured that sooner or later someone would try to pull the NPC/PC distinction as justification for such a double standard (whether it applies to jtav's work or not). It doesn't really surprise me that you'd be the one to do it either. I reject that as having any real relevance. Your own point (4) undermines it. Bioware is done telling their their story of Miranda just as they are telling the story of Shepard. What's left is up to individual fic writers. Characters change and can do so along the paths that we desire. Again they can do so spontaneously in real life but since the rallying cry of "OOC!" will be shouted if that ever happens in fiction, it can also be done through a natural progression. This is true for any character in any fiction ever. Miranda is not more restricted in these terms because she's an NPC. Shepard is more free in these terms because he is partly player-written.
Besides you've just come up with an example yourself so I guess we're good:lol:. What is acceptable and what is preferred are separate things though. If the reverse case of Miranda support is acceptable (even if not preferred by some people), again I have no further argument. Personally I would prefer them both to be to be active in shaping the galaxy.

[AgitatedLemon]

What was your deal with "Supportive boyfriend"?

[CrutchCricket]

Really don't feel like rehashing that. Go back page or two. Find the long post to jtav's reply. It's all in there.

[android654]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Does anyone know the P/R threshold to win back Jack's loyalty after siding with Miranda?

Same with everyone else, almost 95% I think about 90 gives you the option during the argument but to re-loyalize someone its got to be almost full.

I had to choose between them in my cannon maleshep run, so I had to drop Miranda and it took forever to get that high. So I said f**k it and made Beau Shepard and she stayed unloyal in my cannon run. I'm actually surprised she didn't die. I made her leader twice and left her to hold the line but she made it back.

[AgitatedLemon]

android654 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Does anyone know the P/R threshold to win back Jack's loyalty after siding with Miranda?

Same with everyone else, almost 95% I think about 90 gives you the option during the argument but to re-loyalize someone its got to be almost full.

I had to choose between them in my cannon maleshep run, so I had to drop Miranda and it took forever to get that high. So I said f**k it and made Beau Shepard and she stayed unloyal in my cannon run. I'm actually surprised she didn't die. I made her leader twice and left her to hold the line but she made it back.

I know it's lower than the Jack v. Miranda scuffle (Which requires the highest paragon ratio out of any decision in the game at 90%) Tali and Legion is only 80% IIRC.

[AgitatedLemon]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Really don't feel like rehashing that. Go back page or two. Find the long post to jtav's reply. It's all in there.

Oh. The long reply on 1134?

[android654]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

android654 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Does anyone know the P/R threshold to win back Jack's loyalty after siding with Miranda?

Same with everyone else, almost 95% I think about 90 gives you the option during the argument but to re-loyalize someone its got to be almost full.

I had to choose between them in my cannon maleshep run, so I had to drop Miranda and it took forever to get that high. So I said f**k it and made Beau Shepard and she stayed unloyal in my cannon run. I'm actually surprised she didn't die. I made her leader twice and left her to hold the line but she made it back.

I know it's lower than the Jack v. Miranda scuffle (Which requires the highest paragon ratio out of any decision in the game at 90%) Tali and Legion is only 80% IIRC.

Its different if you import from ME1. There are way more P/R options open to you than openning up from ME2. They should've redone that with a different way. But on the brightside it forces some variables into the story for different playthroughs.

[CrutchCricket]

1131 actually.

[jtav]

Characters are not infinitely malleable. They have certain core traits. A Miranda who does not love Oriana is not Miranda. A Miranda who doesn't enjoy achieving the impossible and strive to better humanity is also not Miranda.That ambition is not a core character trait of Shepard's. I can write a Shepard who has no interest on galactic affairs post-war without doing violence to the character. The same is not true of Miranda.

[AgitatedLemon]

jtav wrote...

Characters are not infinitely malleable. They have certain core traits. A Miranda who does not love Oriana is not Miranda. A Miranda who doesn't enjoy achieving the impossible and strive to better humanity is also not Miranda.That ambition is not a core character trait of Shepard's. I can write a Shepard who has no interest on galactic affairs post-war without doing violence to the character. The same is not true of Miranda.

I don't think anyone was referring to making a pre-defined character doing a proverbial 180 (That'd just be silly), but more so evolving them over time, while still sticking to their core. I know someone (I believe it was Crutch, actually) posted a few pages back that people can change. Of course, change doesn't necessarily involve a complete rewrite if it handles the character's growth and development in a "Moving forward" fashion.

@Crutch- Yeah, I meant 1131, I dont know why I said 1134 instead.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 20 janvier 2012 - 04:02 .

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

Characters are not infinitely malleable. They have certain core traits. A Miranda who does not love Oriana is not Miranda. A Miranda who doesn't enjoy achieving the impossible and strive to better humanity is also not Miranda.That ambition is not a core character trait of Shepard's. I can write a Shepard who has no interest on galactic affairs post-war without doing violence to the character. The same is not true of Miranda.

I contest that the two underlined are equally core. Also what Lemon said.

Modifié par CrutchCricket, 20 janvier 2012 - 04:00 .

[Ieldra]

AgitatedLemon wrote...
Does anyone know the P/R threshold to win back Jack's loyalty after siding with Miranda?

Didn't you read my post about this? There are no fixed thresholds. If you do both LMs as early as possible (meaning also doing only N7 missions until their LMs are available after Horizon), it's like this:

*Around 60-65% to resolve the Miranda/Jack conflict with Renegade persuade
*Around 70-75% to resolve it with Paragon persuade
*Around 75-80%% to regain Jack's loyalty.

If you wait until after Reaper IFF, possibly not even a full bar will enable anything.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 janvier 2012 - 04:06 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...
Does anyone know the P/R threshold to win back Jack's loyalty after siding with Miranda?

Didn't you read my post about this? There are no fixed thresholds. If you do both LMs as early as possible, it's like this:

*Around 60-65% to resolve the Miranda/Jack conflict with Renegade persuade
*Around 70-75% to resolve it with Paragon persuade
*Around 75-80%% to regain Jack's loyalty.

If you wait until after Reaper IFF, possibly not even a full bar will enable anything.

I read that it's static at 90% to accomplish it with paragon. With a slightly lower threshold to renew a lost loyalty.

I guess I was mistaken.

[Ieldra]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...
Does anyone know the P/R threshold to win back Jack's loyalty after siding with Miranda?

Didn't you read my post about this? There are no fixed thresholds. If you do both LMs as early as possible, it's like this:

*Around 60-65% to resolve the Miranda/Jack conflict with Renegade persuade
*Around 70-75% to resolve it with Paragon persuade
*Around 75-80%% to regain Jack's loyalty.

If you wait until after Reaper IFF, possibly not even a full bar will enable anything.

I read that it's static at 90% to accomplish it with paragon. With a slightly lower threshold to renew a lost loyalty.

I guess I was mistaken.

I tracked the numbers in one of my cheating playthroughs. I got the Renegade persuade at 628 points, the Paragon one at ..hmm....actually I don't recall exactly but it was around 725. That was with Thane's and Samara's recruitment missions done before Miranda's and Jack's LMs.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 20 janvier 2012 - 04:09 .

[mitthrawuodo]

question: if Kai Leng(?) is TIM's left hand man does that mean Miranda been replaced so really did quit in ME2? This could open up whole new options

[AgitatedLemon]

mitthrawuodo wrote...

question: if Kai Leng(?) is TIM's left hand man does that mean Miranda been replaced so really did quit in ME2? This could open up whole new options

Kai Leng has always been a higher up for Cerberus. 

But yes.

[AgitatedLemon]

Ieldra2 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...
Does anyone know the P/R threshold to win back Jack's loyalty after siding with Miranda?

Didn't you read my post about this? There are no fixed thresholds. If you do both LMs as early as possible, it's like this:

*Around 60-65% to resolve the Miranda/Jack conflict with Renegade persuade
*Around 70-75% to resolve it with Paragon persuade
*Around 75-80%% to regain Jack's loyalty.

If you wait until after Reaper IFF, possibly not even a full bar will enable anything.

I read that it's static at 90% to accomplish it with paragon. With a slightly lower threshold to renew a lost loyalty.

I guess I was mistaken.

I tracked the numbers in one of my cheating playthroughs. I got the Renegade persuade at 628 points, the Paragon one at ..hmm....actually I don't recall exactly but it was around 725. That was with Thane's and Samara's recruitment missions done before Miranda's and Jack's LMs.

Does the order in which you do recruitment and loyalty missions matter at all?

[CrutchCricket]

THX reference.