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[MisterJB]

android654 wrote...
I think with enough enlightenment of one another Miranda and Leng could work out. If anything you should be more embarrassed of her being with Shepard since he has very little personality.

Yes, we get it. You hate Shepard so much that you'd rather Miranda be with a guy who slit the throat of a defenseless asari just before drugging a man who was on rehab with the drug he used to be addicted to. Thank you for the clarification.

[android654]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

android654 wrote...

Hitler? Seriously, you had to jump all the way to Hitler?

You hate him because he killed people and that's the only knowledge of him. It is a lack of understanding because your ignorant of a lot of things leading up to those killings.

Let me put it like this, there has never been any well written villain in fiction who did things because they were evil. In the real world I doubt you could find many real monsters who do things because they are monsters.

I think with enough enlightenment of one another Miranda and Leng could work out. If anything you should be more embarrassed of her being with Shepard since he has very little personality.

Look at JB's analogy to Morinth.

A woman like Miranda wouldn't fall for a psychopathic killer.

Exactly what redeeming quality's does he have? What would he say on the first date?

"I was tossed in prison because I murdered a krogan in a bad because I'm incredibly racist"?

Don't know anything about Leng. Heard the books were bad, and science fiction rarely makes a good read anyway, so why would I read it?

I'm just saying it's not outside the realm of possibilities.

Dating? Falling for? That's too ritualistic and mundane for big personalities like Miranda and (allegedly) Leng. Brief romances seem to be more for them, since sex, like life is more of an experience rather than a traditional romance.

[MisterJB]

android654 wrote...
We only get a glimpse of Morinth. If you were to learn that she was more manipulated and betrayed throughout her life, would you change your tone? If not then I'd think you have a moralty standard that has no place in fiction, a medium designed for understanding different minds and persons. I can empathize with her even though she's a serial killer because I can understand the threat a child must fear by being ostracized by the whole world as she knows it. Does it make it right? No. Do I hate her for it? No, my understanding keeps me from hating her because she's more of a scared kid than a true ravaging monster.

A person's past don't justify their actions. Only their motivations do so.
Morinth might have used to be a scared kid but she has stopped being one for a very long time.
I do not hate Morinth for her running away. I hate her for her choosing to continue murdering innocent people like Nef instead of abstaining.

[AgitatedLemon]

android654 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Hate can just as easily derivate from uderstanding as from lack of it. I understand Morinth, she was placed in an unfair situation that she did nothing to deserve. Does that make me hate her any less? No. Why? Because she enjoys hunting and killing innocent people.

We only get a glimpse of Morinth. If you were to learn that she was more manipulated and betrayed throughout her life, would you change your tone? If not then I'd think you have a moralty standard that has no place in fiction, a medium designed for understanding different minds and persons. I can empathize with her even though she's a serial killer because I can understand the threat a child must fear by being ostracized by the whole world as she knows it. Does it make it right? No. Do I hate her for it? No, my understanding keeps me from hating her because she's more of a scared kid than a true ravaging monster.

Are you intentionally missing the point? Or ignoring the very clear evidence that points to the exact opposite?

Morinth was physically addicted to killing. 

Kai Leng is a psychopath and a racist. Slitting the throat of a random asari woman and drugging a former addict with the same drug he was addicted to doesn't exactly make for good boyfriend or husband material.

Hell, your justifications for killing Samara and keeping Morinth alive are stonger than this, and those are pathetic.

edit: 

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 20 janvier 2012 - 06:41 .

[AgitatedLemon]

android654 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

android654 wrote...

Hitler? Seriously, you had to jump all the way to Hitler?

You hate him because he killed people and that's the only knowledge of him. It is a lack of understanding because your ignorant of a lot of things leading up to those killings.

Let me put it like this, there has never been any well written villain in fiction who did things because they were evil. In the real world I doubt you could find many real monsters who do things because they are monsters.

I think with enough enlightenment of one another Miranda and Leng could work out. If anything you should be more embarrassed of her being with Shepard since he has very little personality.

Look at JB's analogy to Morinth.

A woman like Miranda wouldn't fall for a psychopathic killer.

Exactly what redeeming quality's does he have? What would he say on the first date?

"I was tossed in prison because I murdered a krogan in a bad because I'm incredibly racist"?

Don't know anything about Leng. Heard the books were bad, and science fiction rarely makes a good read anyway, so why would I read it?

I'm just saying it's not outside the realm of possibilities.

Dating? Falling for? That's too ritualistic and mundane for big personalities like Miranda and (allegedly) Leng. Brief romances seem to be more for them, since sex, like life is more of an experience rather than a traditional romance.

So you've never read the only source of history for Kai Leng, but you have the gall to tell me I'm wrong?

[android654]

MisterJB wrote...

android654 wrote...
I think with enough enlightenment of one another Miranda and Leng could work out. If anything you should be more embarrassed of her being with Shepard since he has very little personality.

Yes, we get it. You hate Shepard so much that you'd rather Miranda be with a guy who slit the throat of a defenseless asari just before drugging a man who was on rehab with the drug he used to be addicted to. Thank you for the clarification.

You're so right, Shepard has such a compelling story, that's why so many people make up headcannons to compensate for it. If you ask me for the ME2 story, my favorite picks for Miranda are Jack and Jacob. Leng I know nothing about, but it could work, nothing I've heard about him would lead me to think other wise.

So he's a killer, have we never seen a killer being calmed by love or caring from someone else? Have you people ever read a book?

[android654]

MisterJB wrote...

android654 wrote...
We only get a glimpse of Morinth. If you were to learn that she was more manipulated and betrayed throughout her life, would you change your tone? If not then I'd think you have a moralty standard that has no place in fiction, a medium designed for understanding different minds and persons. I can empathize with her even though she's a serial killer because I can understand the threat a child must fear by being ostracized by the whole world as she knows it. Does it make it right? No. Do I hate her for it? No, my understanding keeps me from hating her because she's more of a scared kid than a true ravaging monster.

A person's past don't justify their actions. Only their motivations do so.
Morinth might have used to be a scared kid but she has stopped being one for a very long time.
I do not hate Morinth for her running away. I hate her for her choosing to continue murdering innocent people like Nef instead of abstaining.

Your past doesn't influence any of your decisions or motvations?

@AgitatedLemon, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you're not saying anything that would lead me to think it'd be impossible to write them together.

[AgitatedLemon]

android654 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

android654 wrote...
We only get a glimpse of Morinth. If you were to learn that she was more manipulated and betrayed throughout her life, would you change your tone? If not then I'd think you have a moralty standard that has no place in fiction, a medium designed for understanding different minds and persons. I can empathize with her even though she's a serial killer because I can understand the threat a child must fear by being ostracized by the whole world as she knows it. Does it make it right? No. Do I hate her for it? No, my understanding keeps me from hating her because she's more of a scared kid than a true ravaging monster.

A person's past don't justify their actions. Only their motivations do so.
Morinth might have used to be a scared kid but she has stopped being one for a very long time.
I do not hate Morinth for her running away. I hate her for her choosing to continue murdering innocent people like Nef instead of abstaining.

Your past doesn't influence any of your decisions or motvations?

@AgitatedLemon, I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you're not saying anything that would lead me to think it'd be impossible to write them together.

Impossible, aside from the obvious "He's racist and a psychopath and literally doesn't give less of a sh*t about anyone/anything."

Riiiight.

Might as well make him a schizophrenic rapist. Hell, let's make him a wizard too, since he seems to be able to anything without consequence.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 20 janvier 2012 - 06:51 .

[MisterJB]

Basically, Draco in Leather Pants.
And my past may influence my personality but if we suddenly discovered that krogans killed Leng's family? Would that justify his actions against all aliens? No.

Modifié par MisterJB, 20 janvier 2012 - 06:52 .

[android654]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Impossible, aside from the obvious "He's racist and a psychopath and literally doesn't give less of a sh*t about anyone/anything."

That's the image many people have of Cerberus as a whole. It's the image we get during ME1, but when you get to know Jacob and Miranda and even TIM you learn that that isn't the case. They have a justification for what they do and the things that seem to be "too far" are obscured when you're on the outside looking in.

People are more than just appearances and perhaps the character has a justification for why he does things. I'd be curious to hear it.

[MisterJB]

android654 wrote...
You're so right, Shepard has such a compelling story, that's why so many people make up headcannons to compensate for it.

And this from someone who think that because there is one line about how Shepard wants to stop, that means all Shepards do. Newsflash, Shepard is the PC in a RPG, he is supposed to have player influence.

Shepard had nothing to do with this discussion but you chose to bring up your dislike for his so called "Lack of Personality" for no reason at all, attacking those who do like Shepard and Shepard/Miranda.

[jtav]

Would you like to hear the justification of someone who is panning on requesting this as soon as the game's out?

[android654]

MisterJB wrote...

Basically, Draco in Leather Pants.
And my past may influence my personality but if we suddenly discovered that krogans killed Leng's family? Would that justify his actions against all aliens? No.

But it would give you an explination and from there any competent write could elaborate and give insght as to why he behaves the way he does. He wouldn't be the first "racist" character in ME who hates and kills other species because of it.

Modifié par android654, 20 janvier 2012 - 06:59 .

[android654]

MisterJB wrote...

android654 wrote...
You're so right, Shepard has such a compelling story, that's why so many people make up headcannons to compensate for it.

And this from someone who think that because there is one line about how Shepard wants to stop, that means all Shepards do. Newsflash, Shepard is the PC in a RPG, he is supposed to have player influence.

Shepard had nothing to do with this discussion but you chose to bring up your dislike for his so called "Lack of Personality" for no reason at all, attacking those who do like Shepard and Shepard/Miranda.

Attacking? Seriously, calm down it was one comment, you decided to take it and run with it. And bringing up dialogue doesn't equal complexity to writing.

jtav wrote...

Would you like to hear the justification of someone who is panning on requesting this as soon as the game's out?

Sure, go ahead.

[AgitatedLemon]

android654 wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Impossible, aside from the obvious "He's racist and a psychopath and literally doesn't give less of a sh*t about anyone/anything."

That's the image many people have of Cerberus as a whole. It's the image we get during ME1, but when you get to know Jacob and Miranda and even TIM you learn that that isn't the case. They have a justification for what they do and the things that seem to be "too far" are obscured when you're on the outside looking in.

People are more than just appearances and perhaps the character has a justification for why he does things. I'd be curious to hear it.

Cerberus is probably the worst example, since it's a collective of people, who all joined for different reasons, and not just 1 person. Compare him to TIM, who still isn't a racist, but he has reasonably legitimate reasons for how he does what he does, even if his methods are misguided.

Leng is literally just "rawr I stabbed a krogan in the neck with a knife, slit a random asari's throat, and drugged a man in rehab with the same drug he was addicted to".

[MisterJB]

android654 wrote...
But if would give you an explination and from there any competent write could elaborate and give insght as to why he behaves the way he does. He wouldn't be the first "racist" character in ME who hates and kills other species because of it.

If Kai Leng kill an asari because he honestly believes doing so will help more people, then his motivation (helping people) justifies his action.
However, if Leng kills that same asari because aliens killed his family which lead to him hating them all his life, then his motivation (kill an alien just for the pleasure of it) does not justify his action.

[AgitatedLemon]

MisterJB wrote...

android654 wrote...
But if would give you an explination and from there any competent write could elaborate and give insght as to why he behaves the way he does. He wouldn't be the first "racist" character in ME who hates and kills other species because of it.

If Kai Leng kill an asari because he honestly believes doing so will help more people, then his motivation (helping people) justifies his action.
However, if Leng kills that same asari because aliens killed his family which lead to him hating them all his life, then his motivation (kill an alien just for the pleasure of it) does not justify his action.

@bold: Only if there is a truly legitimate, good reason. Like if that asari was conspiring to commit genocide.

Except, that asari wasn't planning anything of the sort.

[MisterJB]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Leng is literally just "rawr I stabbed a krogan in the neck with a knife, slit a random asari's throat, and drugged a man in rehab with the same drug he was addicted to".

Not to mention using a (human) child as a shield.

Quoting from the book here, a chapter through Leng's POV:
"He felt the familiar spark of excitement flickering deep inside him. At heart, he was a killer, a predator. He lived for the chase."

The guy likes to kill.

[AgitatedLemon]

MisterJB wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Leng is literally just "rawr I stabbed a krogan in the neck with a knife, slit a random asari's throat, and drugged a man in rehab with the same drug he was addicted to".

Not to mention using a (human) child as a shield.

Quoting from the book here, a chapter through Leng's POV:
"He felt the familiar spark of excitement flickering deep inside him. At heart, he was a killer, a predator. He lived for the chase."

The guy likes to kill.

I'd say he's just as twisted, if not more so, than Morinth.

And she had a physical addiction to murder, and becomes stronger after each and every kill.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well yes, but why would you want to ship your favorite character with an irredeemable villain? Not getting the mindset. At all.

Good Lord no! Who said anything about shipping? The great majority of these characters, if you ship them with just about anybody, you are completely missing the point.

I'll have to catch up on the rest of the discussion now...

[AgitatedLemon]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Well yes, but why would you want to ship your favorite character with an irredeemable villain? Not getting the mindset. At all.

Good Lord no! Who said anything about shipping? The great majority of these characters, if you ship them with just about anybody, you are completely missing the point.

I'll have to catch up on the rest of the discussion now...

Summary-

Me and JB: Kai Leng is a psychopath and a soulless killer *Provides multiple pieces of evidence*

android: *Semantics*

edit: I see the word "ship" tossed around a lot, but I don't know what it means.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 20 janvier 2012 - 07:29 .

[jtav]

Relationshipping: pairing two characters romantically or sexually.

[AgitatedLemon]

jtav wrote...

Relationshipping: pairing two characters romantically or sexually.

Oh.

Figured.

Yeah... Don't do that to Leng and Miranda. Neither of them deserve it.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 20 janvier 2012 - 07:40 .

[CrutchCricket]

android, for all your talk of understanding, I'm not sure you understand what a Complete Monster really is. True, it is very rare to encounter one who is only written as doing things "for the evulz". But try and stretch your mind around this: what they do that seems so monstrous to us is the absolute right and correct thing to do in the mind of the monster. They don't go around thinking  "I'm going to be evil today". They say "It is right for me to murder and torture. Either it is my divine right by virtue of (pick one: my strength, my speed, the Dark Side, Satan) or there is absolutely no morality and I can do what I want. I am able to murder and if feels better than not murdering, therefore I wil murder."

Now tell me someone like Miranda or any "normal" character is going to look at that and go "yep, we could probably go out".

You are following the trope to a T, attempting to bring in backstory and "understading" in order to redeem a villian or at least raise him up enough to ship him with a character. But in doing so I think you're completely missing the point of what these characters really are.

There's a old Nicholas Cage flick 8mm where he gets hired as a PI to bust a smut ring. The movie's forgettable but the quote of the villain when he's finally uncovered stayed with me:
"I wasn't abused as a child. Mommy didn't rape me. I just love to [harsh inappropriateness deleted]"
There is absolutely no way these characters can function in normal relationships. To bring them into one or to bring another character into a warped version with the monster is to break one of them.

[AgitatedLemon]

@Crutch

There's no way people like that could function in normal society, let alone a relationship.