82199 réponses à ce sujet

[Melra]

In LoTSB Liara is fine, but I am not sure if I would've continued to romance her, if I hadn't chosen Miri after ME1. Before the DLC, I was really annoyed how Liara had changed, it just didn't feel right for me. It wasn't he Liara, that I had grown to like. Sure she shows more of herself in the DLC and I think she's alright, but there's so many factors and somethings, that just always can't be put into words.

[Ieldra]

Melrache wrote...
I think that any criticism about her behavior is wrong.

Not if her behaviour is inconsistent and the different aspects of her don't result in an organic whole. I'm not saying she suffers from that in a general sense, but for instance, her opening-up in ME2 is too fast to be believable. To answer with "yes but she does it" is missing the point. The problem is that she is not a real character but a fictional one, so unlike a real person, she is open to criticism about the ways the writers chose to present her. If I say "she should have done X", then I'm really saying "the writer overlooked a contradiction or inconsistency". Now you might not care about inconsistencies and contradictions, but I do. In this spirit, I criticize her behaviour sometimes. The other alternative is to invent rationalizations. That is valid, but it only goes so far.

She should be the same as she was at the end of ME2, unless given some reason to her change, though if she had done whole ''Liara'' switch one me, I'd throw the game into garbage. There should be no reason to change her now, just because someone didn't like how she was in ME2. It wouldn't seem right.

What I can say, I do agree. Only apparently I didn't have the same experience of her as you had. For instance, in my games she usually doesn't resign (like in 37% of all ME2 games), and her non-optional recommendations on the SM have a greater weight in my view of her than one optional line I find OOC anyway. I also usually choose the Renegade options in her romance, which makes her act differently. So exactly who is Miranda at the end of ME2? Obviously it depends on your decisions to some degree. I'd be fine if Bioware chose to represent these differences in ME3, but there are aspects of her that come with her character concept. They should not be compromised.  
 

I didn't mean that she didn't open up enough, but she still could open up more, I mean I want to progress the romance further. I don't want it to be all ''Oh hey, hun *huggles and kisses* Now.. Off you go.'' With progress, I don't mean babies or wedding, I just want to know more about the character and I want the two to get more and more closer,if possible.

I think we all want that.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 14 juin 2011 - 06:33 .

[Ieldra]

Yannkee wrote...

Melrache wrote...
About the armor, sure have it as option, but only as option. It doesn't have to be the same outfit as in ME2, I'd be actually happier if it wasn't. As long as it's light and something that would follow the line that her two first outfits were. As I've said in the past, I think the Asari Commando style might be great for her.

I agree.




There is also this armor concept (the one the right) I found, which I think would be great :

Nice to see we can still agree on something As everyone knows, I like her AAP2 armor, but these would really be preferable.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 14 juin 2011 - 06:37 .

[ViSeiRa]

When it comes to Miranda's personality I don't think the shift is even noticeable outside of romance, but it's also not that noticeable in the romance itself, she expressed a moment of weakness when she told Shepard she doesn't want him to die, what really made this moment's weakness look more exposed as a shift of personality is that Shepard in the exact same moment cannot express same said emotion, by lack of a paragon choice that said "Promise me you won't die too" they shifted the whole weight of the scene on Miranda... apart from that I don't think her strong personality has changed in any fundamental way during the course of ME2, even at the end when she resigned from Cerberus and from where I see it she still believes in a human positive agenda, she just thinks the illusive man is not the way to go because she saw how far he's willing to go, maybe some part of it was suggestion on Shepard's part but that doesn't take away from her strength in actually making the decision to split.

[Raizo]

Yannkee wrote...

Raizo wrote...

Yannkee wrote...

Prudii Aden wrote...

I'm all for this, unsurprisingly. What I'd like in the romance? A couple of scenes akin to the post lockdown one in ME 1, where Shepard can be less guarded or show emotions more freely. Something similar to the discussion Shepard and Liara had post Shadow Broker wouldn't be bad either.

I think it's what Bioware plans to do in ME3.

I hope so.

I think the scene with the little boy during the Earth escape demo at E3 is representative of what the writers want to do with Shepard.

Not quite what I had in mind when I made my original post. Granted, I have not seen this scene with the little boy dying for myself but I remember reading the article on IGN and bursting into a fit of laughter. It's hard for me to emphasise with this boy and his death since I don't really know anything about him and from what I have gathered from the article ( once again, I have not seen this scene for myself ) it feels like Bioware are trying to hard to sell the whole entire Reaper threat, the whole entire scene reaks of blatant emotional manipulation and I am just to pessimistic and cynical to fall for it.

I don't like my story telling in games to be too heavy handed or too obvious and I not a big fan of cliches either. I respond better to more subtle forms of story telling. The main reason for my original post had more to do with the romance scenes in ME3 and how they were handled, more specifically the Miranda romance. In my opinion all of the romances in ME2 looked and felt awkward but the Miranda one is particularly is very cringe worthy because because in many ways it just looks like it's just about sex. I liked the sex scene in ME1, not only did it showcase Shepard in a fairly vulnerable moment but it also was sexy and yet tasteful and you walked way from the scene feeling as if Shepard and his ( or her ) LI had shared somthing truly special and that they truly meant somthing to one another.

[jtav]

I've updated the OP to remove the request for more practical outfits and curing infertility.Hopefully, this will keep a measure of peace.

[Jebel Krong]

jtav wrote...

I've updated the OP to remove the request for more practical outfits and curing infertility.Hopefully, this will keep a measure of peace.

still hate the AAP one myself, i'm not opposed to optional armour for those that just got to have it, but by god it was ugly, especially round the legs/knees.

[cbutz]

I know the decision at the end of the SM is controversial here. I am not going to be arguing whether it is or isn't out of character. I just want to add this thought: Let us say that her decision to leave Cerberus ,and her view point of saving the base as a betrayal, is out of character. Is that okay?

Has anyone here ever acted out of YOUR "character". Has anyone here done things that you never thought you would do, say and do things that you never thought you'd would do or run contrary to what you thought of yourself, presented yourself or believed you were. After that moment you are still your character, you still are you, you just had a lapse of judgement or character. Perhaps emotions or other things clouded your judgement.
I personally can say that has happened to me numerous times in my life where I said," Man why did I (say/do) that?" That is not who I am or want to be.

Now think back to Miranda at the end of the SM mission. Depending on the way it turns out, people may already be dead to everyone is alive but time is running out. The liquification affected her, though she never shows it because she only shows her innermost feelings in a private context. She is now almost at the end of this Sm, a mission, that leading up to it , that she always reminded the crew of the success chances. Chances are she is exhausted, disturbed by the liquify machines, and now is confronted with the realization that her boss/ idol wants t keep this base, and possibly dispose of the man she spent two years rebuilding and who made this SM successful. So those factors may have led to a lapse of her regular character, imprinting the justification of destroying the base and quitting Cerberus forever in her brain... or just for the time being, that is up for Bioware to decide in ME 3.

So given all of that I think it is okay if she acted out of character at the end of the SM, heck she is human after all. We all have done it at some point in our lives, probably under far less stressful, dangerous, traumatic, etc. situations. So thats my 2 cents on this situation feel free to pick it apart.

[jtav]

Two points:

One: Miranda is a character. That means she's held to a higher standard of consistency. A viewer should always be able to say "I see why she did that." For a significant percentage of players, we don't see and it comes across as unbelievable based on her prior behavior.

Two: It's the last thing we see of her and may herald her going in a direction we don't like. I don't want to lose the first character I really fell in love with. If ME3 is bad enough, I will kill her off, and I'd hate to do that.

[Jebel Krong]

btw why do we only want one romance scene in ME3?

[Ieldra]

@cbutz:
I wish this very explosive can of worms would've stayed closed. But here's my take on it:

(1) Her resignation
I see it as a practical decision. Shepard wants to destroy the base, TIM wants her to prevent that, and she knows she won't be able to win against Shepard and the second team member. If she tries, she'll die. She's caught between a rock and a hard place, and the only way to survive is to resign. That way she may still influence things.

(2) Her recommendation to destroy the base
My issue is with the line "this feels like a betrayal". A slip-up out of stress is the only remotely acceptable rationalization for me. And it *still* feels out of character even then. She's used to stressful situations and very likely has seen many ugly things in her career, and has often made decisions about life and death of others. And of all the decisions she was asked to make, this might be the one where the strategic impact is highest. I find it hard to believe that she'd freak out. At the very least, she wouldn't recommend to destroy the base without giving consideration to the benefits of keeping it. Mostly, I think she'd recommend to keep it.

Anyway, admittedly your rationalization has merit. It makes her behavior a little easier to live with. FYI, it has also been suggested that at that time she was thinking of Oriana being in one of those pods. That might also make her freak out. But I'd like that to stay a one-time event. It's bad enough that ME2 shows us more of her mistakes than her successes, we don't need that tendency to be continued in ME3.

jtav wrote...
Two points:

One: Miranda is a character.
That means she's held to a higher standard of consistency. A viewer should always be able to say "I see why she did that." For a significant percentage of players, we don't see and it comes across as unbelievable based on her prior behavior.

Two: It's the last thing we see of her and may herald her going in a direction we don't like. I don't want to lose the first character I really fell in love with. If ME3 is bad enough, I will kill her off, and I'd hate to do that.

I agree with this 100% (Ok, not the killing. Things would have to be extreme for me to do that)

Modifié par Ieldra2, 14 juin 2011 - 08:50 .

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...
btw why do we only want one romance scene in ME3?

We assume that there is only one. Of course more would be nice, but I don't think it will happen. There is too much else going on in ME3.

[Vertigo_1]

There should be some sort of response from her and/or Shepard when you meet her again in ME3 + a romance scene right before the final battle...

I am now reminded of that discussion in the old forums about sending sexy emails back and forth between the two: I think that was hilarious

I'm weird like that...

[Caihn]

jtav wrote...

Two points:

One: Miranda is a character. That means she's held to a higher standard of consistency. A viewer should always be able to say "I see why she did that." For a significant percentage of players, we don't see and it comes across as unbelievable based on her prior behavior.

A significant percentage of players also understand why she did that and consider her behavior totally believable.

Two: It's the last thing we see of her and may herald her going in a direction we don't like. I don't want to lose the first character I really fell in love with. If ME3 is bad enough, I will kill her off, and I'd hate to do that.

I don't want to lose the character I like : the one I saw during the whole game (from the first second of ME2, until the last one)

This discussion is pointless. The fact is we don't like the same character.

[Ghost Warrior]

I definitely support this thread,Miranda is one of my favourite characters and my main LI. I really hope she gets big and important role in ME3,sort of like in ME2.

[Chewin]

Ghost Warrior wrote...

I definitely support this thread,Miranda is one of my favourite characters and my main LI. I really hope she gets big and important role in ME3,sort of like in ME2.

Well since she had the biggest chance  of surviving the SM, I guess she will have a major role.

[Ghost Warrior]

Chewin3 wrote...

Well since she had the biggest chance  of surviving the SM, I guess she will have a major role.

Exactly what I was thinking

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
My issue is with the line "this feels like a betrayal". A slip-up out of stress is the only remotely acceptable rationalization for me.

Had it been a slip-up out of stress, she should have shown doubts regarding the destruction of the Base once they were safe aboard the Normandy, no?
It seems to me that, between Shepard's debriefing with The Illusive Man and the repairs, there would be enough time for Miranda to reflect about what she said.

[TheMarshal]

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
My issue is with the line "this feels like a betrayal". A slip-up out of stress is the only remotely acceptable rationalization for me.

Had it been a slip-up out of stress, she should have shown doubts regarding the destruction of the Base once they were safe aboard the Normandy, no?
It seems to me that, between Shepard's debriefing with The Illusive Man and the repairs, there would be enough time for Miranda to reflect about what she said.

Is this when you destroy the base?  She feels like it's a betrayal to TIM/Cerberus?

Modifié par TheMarshal, 14 juin 2011 - 10:05 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

What is this about stress? I thought Miri meant to resign.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 14 juin 2011 - 10:09 .

[Saber Wolf]

So who thinks Miri will be on the Normandy in the beginning fo ME3? I'm not sure she will be...

[Rawke]

TheMarshal wrote...

MisterJB wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
My issue is with the line "this feels like a betrayal". A slip-up out of stress is the only remotely acceptable rationalization for me.

Had it been a slip-up out of stress, she should have shown doubts regarding the destruction of the Base once they were safe aboard the Normandy, no?
It seems to me that, between Shepard's debriefing with The Illusive Man and the repairs, there would be enough time for Miranda to reflect about what she said.

Is this when you destroy the base?  She feels like it's a betrayal to TIM/Cerberus?

No, she feels like it's a betrayal when TIM suggests using the base. Which shows just how ****ed up Cerberus as organisation is. Everybody seems committed to help humanity, except TIM. The only thing he's interested in is his own agenda. Shows that Cerberus is just another terrorist group. Everybody believes in the cause and works towards it except the leader.

[MisterJB]

TheMarshal wrote...

Is this when you destroy the base?  She feels like it's a betrayal to TIM/Cerberus?

No, she feels keeping the Base is a betrayal. To whom? She doesn't specify, most likely to the people who died there.

"Miranda: I'm not so sure. Seeing it first hand...using anything from this base seems like a betrayal."

Modifié par MisterJB, 14 juin 2011 - 10:16 .

[Caihn]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

What is this about stress? I thought Miri meant to resign.

Of course she meant it.
She even say this after the SM : "We had to do it. Taking down the Collectors was the right decision. The Illusive Man might not agree, but we had no choice."

Modifié par Yannkee, 14 juin 2011 - 10:17 .

[Caihn]

Datas_12 wrote...

So who thinks Miri will be on the Normandy in the beginning fo ME3? I'm not sure she will be...

I don't think she will be, I think she will be busy elsewhere.

But I hope we will be able to have her back as soon as possible.

Modifié par Yannkee, 14 juin 2011 - 10:17 .