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[snfonseka]

Not sure I have uploaded this long time ago.......

[ClanMacNab]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Swaggacide wrote...

Hey Lemon and MEFan
What major decisions did you choose in ME2 (Canon Shepard only)
Destroy or rewrite geth?
Keep base or destroy?
Kill or let Maelon live?
Kill Sidonis or let him live?
Morinth or Samara?
Encourage or discourage quarian/geth war?
Tell me anything else I forgot. Anyone else that wants to answer this go ahead please

1. Rewrite
2. Destroy (I headcanon out the awful in-game reasoning)
3. Live
4. Live (I see it as the more sadistic option)
5. Samara
6. Discourage

I've been on both side of all of these decisions, with the exception of the the Samara/Morinth decision. I just couldn't bring myself to bring a full blown sociopath into the crew when I already had two of them who were on the borderline. I had no desire to even see the outcome of that decision.

But I wanted some perspective on the outcome of all the other decisions after they played out so I've let the rest of them go both ways several times in varying arrangements  Mostly so I could see how the decisions play out with regards to NPC reaction and interplay afterwards and story arc alteration. This is one of the very cool aspects of this game in particular and most games with role
playing elements to them, especially well designed ones with complex
branching systems that factor every one of those decsions in as a whole.
 

But I also played these decisions out both ways to see how they affected *me* afterward for making them, and make myself think about why I chose to make the choice I made from a personal perspective. Sure, I always analyze my decisions in my real life with the benefit of hindsight, but how many times do you get to look at a problem from the perspective of personal foresight?

Destroy or rewrite geth?:
Haven't been able to reach an internal consensus with myself on this one, but I find myself leaning toward destroying the base to avoid what I see a potentially larger Geth problem in the future.

Keep base or destroy?:
That one was fairly easy for me. Obliterate it. Hundreds of thousands and potentially millions more thrown into the grinder. I did it mostly for those who had already been lost. It was, however, interesting to see the reactions of squadmates after making the decision to keep the base and then think about the tech benefits or potential for Cerberus mischief from the choice.

Kill or let Maelon live?:
The first couple of times I played this one out I let Mordin kill him. Conversations with Mordin afterward made me decide to reverse that decision. I'm as conflicted as Mordin is about the Genophage. But came the personal conclusion that bioengineering another species was just plain wrong no matter how agressive they were when I reversed the roles and put another aggressive species on the other side of that choice - us (Yeah, I know this puts me in somewhat of a conflict with my Geth decision, still trying to figure that one out).

Kill Sidonis or let him live?:
'Vengence is mine sayeth the Lord'. Words to live by for a reasonable man. I wasn't so sure that Sidonis was as really ripped up by his actions as he let on, plus he got the entire squad killed by those actions. My Shepard tends to be a hardass on decisions like this and the first couple of times I made it I just stepped aside and let Garrus take the shot. Later when I reversed the decision the value of forgiveness of a tortured heart was reinforced in me (but I still felt like he deserved one right between the eyes).

Morinth or Samara?:
No contest for me as originally stated. Don't want a sociopath on the team, period. Samara lives by a code that helps to ground my Shep. I already have enough flexible moral code issues, to bring Morinth into the equation would have made them worse.

Encourage or discourage quarian/geth war?:
I lean toward discouraging the war. Making a decision to destroy the heretics was an expedient one based on the premise of negotiation from a position of strengh in case things went wrong, which I thought was a strong possiblity. Ultimately I think peaceful accomodations must be made for every member of the galactic community for any hope of peace to be achieved - including the Reapers - the Reapers just need to be nuked a lot before I'm going to think about negotiating with them.

I'm going to add the kill or not kill Nikket decision here:
I wouldn't let Miranda kill him to protect her psyche from the potential personal self-torture she might have inflicted on herself as a result, because my Shepard loves her and hopes she would have done the same for me. If necessary, I would have done the job myself and borne the potential consequences later. (yeah, it puts me in conflict with the Garrus/Sidonis choice, but like I said, my Shepard (and ME!) have personal issues with flexible morality).

[ClanMacNab]

Argh!

Modifié par ClanMacNab, 25 janvier 2012 - 02:28 .

[ClanMacNab]

D*mn, this forum software just flat out sucks!

[Ieldra]

ClanMacNab wrote...
Keep base or destroy?:
That one was fairly easy for me. Obliterate it. Hundreds of thousands and potentially millions more thrown into the grinder. I did it mostly for those who had already been lost. It was, however, interesting to see the reactions of squadmates after making the decision to keep the base and then think about the tech benefits or potential for Cerberus mischief from the choice.

Mostly for those already lost? That's exactly the kind of reasoning I don't understand. Why would you do that?

Will post my decisions and my take on Miranda's opinion about them (excepting the CB, that has been discussed enough) later.

[nelly21]

I agree with Ieldra. You are talking about defeating an enemy that has never been defeated and has wiped out all advanced organic life in the galaxy on more than one occasion. Against such odds, symbolic victories are meaningless. TIM's megalomania is a valid concern, but he is bacteria compared to the Reapers.

Who would honor those who were lost if everyone is dead?

Also Miranda would agree with everything I said so I'm not derailing the thread.

Modifié par nelly21, 25 janvier 2012 - 02:51 .

[Ieldra]

nelly21 wrote...
I agree with Ieldra. You are talking about defeating an enemy that has never been defeated and has wiped out all advanced organic life in the galaxy on more than one occasion. Against such odds, symbolic victories are meaningless. TIM's megalomania is a valid concern, but he is bacteria compared to the Reapers.

Who would honor those who were lost if everyone is dead?
Also Miranda would agree with everything I said so I'm not derailing the thread.

Such a relief to see someone agree with me here, especially that Miranda would agree. I was starting to think moral outrage had clouded the reason of everyone here. The thing is, if you choose the Paragon response in the first exchange with TIM at the base, Miranda says her dreadful "betrayal" line echoing what MacNab said. Thus, the repeating discussion about this line being out of character. I - and you - say Miranda wouldn't think that way.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 25 janvier 2012 - 02:59 .

[jtav]

It hasn't clouded my reason. I'm just stick of the argument. I think Miranda would argue to destroy the base, but on the grounds of it being too dangerous.

[wright1978]

Destroy Geth. Both the ethical problem i had with brainwashing them and the danger that their re-introduction with the sensible geth might have unforseen negative consequences.

Destroy Base: Don't trust TIM as far as i could throw him. If there was a third choice i might have taken it.

Let Maelon live. Felt there no need reason to kill him.

Kill Sidonis. Responsible for death of garrus squad.

Choose Samara. I have a renegade who chose Morinth though as he felt she'd be a more vicious weapon.

Discourage war. Felt sorry for Qwib Qwib, it is hard being a sane man in a room full of crazies.

Let Miranda kill Niket. Paragon interrupt is silly.

[ClanMacNab]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Swaggacide wrote...

Lemon what color is your armor?
Mine is dark red

Blue and orange.

Colors of the Florida Gators, college football.

I'm in the Brad Paisley camp when it comes to the colors I wear.

My favorite color is camouflage.
___________________

You can blend in in the country

You can stand out in the fashion world

Be invisible to a White Tail

Irresistible to a redneck girl

_______________

Yeah, I know Miri is far from a redneck girl but it still works for my infiltrator Shepard.

I can't imagine an infiltrator in anything else but camo if he isn't cloaked.

[ClanMacNab]

Ieldra2 wrote...

ClanMacNab wrote...
Keep base or destroy?:
That one was fairly easy for me. Obliterate it. Hundreds of thousands and potentially millions more thrown into the grinder. I did it mostly for those who had already been lost. It was, however, interesting to see the reactions of squadmates after making the decision to keep the base and then think about the tech benefits or potential for Cerberus mischief from the choice.

Mostly for those already lost? That's exactly the kind of reasoning I don't understand. Why would you do that?

Will post my decisions and my take on Miranda's opinion about them (excepting the CB, that has been discussed enough) later.

I said mostly. Yes, it's morally cloudy, but as I said about my Shepard...

I also did it because the info would have been very dangerous in the wrong hands, and my Shepard *does not* trust Cerberus under any circumstances even though he is in agreement with some of their stated goals...back into that morally cloudy world for my Shep...

My Shepard is not a Spock who makes his decisions based solely on logic, he's ruled to a degree by his passions.

Also, I would like to point out that while I value and factor in Mirandas opinion on these matters as best as they can be deduced based on things we know (and can flexibly infer) about her, the choices are ultimately mine to make. Funny how they made the game that way...

Modifié par ClanMacNab, 25 janvier 2012 - 03:40 .

[ClanMacNab]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Swaggacide wrote...

I agree. I always have my woman with me

There's no better way to show her you care than to continually risk her life by taking her on dangerous military operations.

HA!

[Ieldra]

@MacNab:
I didn't mean to imply that you should always make decisions Miranda would make. I just think that since this is the Miranda thread, talking about the decisions she would make in your place is more on-topic than simply talking about yours.

[ClanMacNab]

ThomGau wrote...

I have say that I like this line, the fact that she trusts more Shepard than TIM and watnot .

However, the first I heard it I was " What ? Really Miranda ? " . It was really unexpected from her, I was gladly surprized but at the same time bewildered .
Indeed, there is nothing within her character development that could cleary lead her to say that line at this critical moment of the game .
I know she is quite a mysterious and secretive women, but I would expect her to express her thoughts regarding Cerberus's ideals and goals, how her outlook on these would have possibly changed during the ME2 Odyssey ( with Teltin, Overlord ... ) especially if she is loyal or in love with Shepard .
If such a thing would have been present in the game I think this line would have been rather in-character . As it is now, it is rather out .
She doesn't usually make instinctive decisions like this, though that doesn't exclude that fact that she can't do such a thing at all, but still ... 
I recall a developer (Walters ?) saying something like " drastic decisions for drastic moments " about that line .

I would like her to add further explanations to that decision to Shepard in ME3, but I doubt this will be present .

Agreed. That in mind, I can think of several circumstances in real life where a sound, intelligent, and mentally nimble friend has made a sudden reversal of major opinion based on new information in a very stressful situation. It happens frequently in my line of work, sometimes a refusal to reverse that staid opinion ends up being a smoking hole in the ground. So in that sense I agree with Walters (?) and can be fexible enough to accept it.

Modifié par ClanMacNab, 25 janvier 2012 - 04:54 .

[MisterJB]

Ieldra2 wrote...
You have a point. But the problem is that the damnable betrayal line still exists, and that her resignation is linked to the destruction of the base. Both in combination make it difficult to disassociate one from the other. How many different Mirandas are we supposed to create through our decisions here?

As long as in ME3, Miranda doesn't explain how she resigned from Cerberus becasue of Harper wanting the Base, I think we can safely say that her recomendation and her resignation are two separate events with diferent reasonings.
After all, it's not like Miranda stops being loyal to Shepard if he decides to keep the Base.

Also this appears to indicate that she now trusts Shepard more than TIM. That's not quite believable considering how she defends TIM as late as the first romance conversation. There is never the slightest indication she doesn't trust TIM any more. This comes totally out of the blue.

In her first romance conversation, she defends Cerberus, not TIM. The two do not need to be one and the same, I do not expect Miranda, after she resigned, to be any less pragmatic or human centric.

She defends TIM in her first conversation aboard the Normandy and I think it's safe to say that she trusted him on a personal level at that point.

"Whatever else people might say about him, I can assure you he's got humanity's best interests at heart. That includes you and me."

Of course, when they reach the Collector Cruiser, she learns that it is not so. TIM betrays her personal trust and I think we can all agree that trust in someone is something that Miranda doesn't take lightly.

So, I do not believe it is a matter of Miranda trusting Shepard more than she trusts TIM. I think it's simply a matter of her not trusting Harper anymore. If he had ordered her to kill anyone else on the crew, her reaction might have been the same. This situation is completely different from her killing Wilson. They are not traitors, they have just stopped the Collectors. TIM is the traitor who is trying to kill his own people because of a difference of opinions. How long until he decides to have her killed too because she gets in the way of his plans?

There are also some other arguments I could make. For example, we know that Miranda cares about the crew but she is, at the same time, willing to sacrifice them so as to not risk the mission. If Shepard sends someone loyal with the crew, it might teach to look for other solutions. However, since sending someone with the crew is entirely optional, it's not a very strong argument.

So while I don't have an issue with her resigning as such (as opposed to what people might believe, I don't exactly like TIM's Cerberus), given the way it's presented I do not find it believable. It feels tacked-on, character derailment to pander to Paragons and/or the players' ego. Given how many people think this is her finest moment I'm not surprised they tacked it on, but it damages her integrity as a character.

I partially agree with this. Most of what I said before is my reasoning from lines that can be easily missed during the game. Miranda's resignation needed more build up.
Why not have Shepard bring the subject of TIM's betrayal into discussion with her? Why not make it obligatory?
Why not make it possible to completely blame Teltin on Harper?
Or, if Miranda is not loyal, why not have her have a small discussion with TIM on the spot regarding trust but, since she is not loyal, TIM manages to convince her and Shepard has to kill her on the spot? I think we could have lived with that.

Modifié par MisterJB, 25 janvier 2012 - 04:15 .

[ClanMacNab]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@MacNab:
I didn't mean to imply that you should always make decisions Miranda would make. I just think that since this is the Miranda thread, talking about the decisions she would make in your place is more on-topic than simply talking about yours.

Absolutely. Didn't take it that way. In fact I find myself deferring to her opinion several times during the story. My Shepard values her thoughts immensly, and yes this thread is about her, but darn it, we only get to play Shepard, so I don't know how we can leave him out of the discussion, especially if he's romancing her.

Apologies if you thought I was drifting OT unecessarily. I'm new here and still trying to find my way around. One of the reasons I like to post on this thread is to show my implicit support for Miranda in ME3 in an overt way, but being new here I sometimes drift OT as I sort out my thoughts on the game in this venue.

Modifié par ClanMacNab, 25 janvier 2012 - 05:20 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Who has Miri Lead the 2nd Fire Team at the beginning of the SM? I do.

For some Reason, I can't change Miri to her Armor After the Romance Scene and before going through the Debris Field. I can only change her to her Armor when one of those drones breaks through the Cargo Bay.

Look at the bold area. That is where I mostly want you to reply from:

I leave Miri on the Bridge because it doesn't make sense having her with you in the Cargo Bay, because you hear her say, "We're about the clear the Debris Field." on the speaker, yet she is right next to you. Why does that happen?

And when I go back to the bridge/cockpit, she is in her armor, which makes no sense. I can't change her to her Armor after the debriefing, because she is Leading the 2nd Fire Team.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 25 janvier 2012 - 04:20 .

[Dr. Doctor]

Mordin's LM: Keep the data, there's no reason to destroy it when it could be useful one day.

Miranda's LM: Kill Niket, I don't like the Paragon interupt and Miranda's one-liner after she shoots him is great.

Garrus' LM: Kill Sidonis, Shepard doesn't know all the details about what happened so it's Garrus' choice.

Samara's LM: There's no way in hell I'm letting a crazy space vampire on my ship.

Keep the Base: I don't trust TIM, but as an engineer I view technology as a tool, not anything that's necessarily good or evil.

[Ieldra]

@101:
I've not done so in my early playthroughs, but now Miranda leads my fire teams most of the time. It makes the most sense since she's my second-in-command. For the same reason I leave her on the bridge while I deal with the Oculus. As for the comment: Never noticed that glitch. Likely it's a bug. Ignore it.

[ClanMacNab]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

Mordin's LM: Keep the data, there's no reason to destroy it when it could be useful one day.

Miranda's LM: Kill Niket, I don't like the Paragon interupt and Miranda's one-liner after she shoots him is great.

Garrus' LM: Kill Sidonis, Shepard doesn't know all the details about what happened so it's Garrus' choice.

Samara's LM: There's no way in hell I'm letting a crazy space vampire on my ship.

Keep the Base: I don't trust TIM, but as an engineer I view technology as a tool, not anything that's necessarily good or evil.

That one liner from Miri is very good. It's also one of the reasons I prefer the renegade option during the first romance scene.

I still didn't want Cerberus to have that tech because of a lack of trust in their motives, but my own engineering background did persuade me to also try the other option to see how the outcome felt. I remained somewhat unconvinced (but I kept the save).

[jtav]

I usually let her lead the fireteam, unless I want to hear certain dialogue. I think Jacob makes a better first fireteam leader from a narrative standpoint because this is the moment he comes into his own. Miranda also occasionally gets biotic duty to engineer a sensible death.

[Ieldra]

Here's the decisions my main Shepard takes in ME2 and my take on Miranda's opinion:

*Veetor: obviously Miranda wants him for interrogation. But I have reason to trust Tali and no reason to trust unnamed Cerberus interrogators, so I left him with the quarians. Question: If you give Veetor to Cerberus, does Miranda have anything to say about the result if you bring her to the Migrant Fleet?

*Genophage Cure: I think the Genophage is necessary and will continue to be. But I may be wrong, and there's no harm in keeping the stuff if it's kept somewhere safe. So I keep it on the reasoning "Better have it and not need it". I think Miranda would agree since this keeps all options open.

*Heretics: Reaper influence could spread through the geth in FTL speed if something goes wrong with the rewrite. Miranda is risk-averse enough in such things that I think she would destroy them. Cyrus Shepard has taken her recommendation.

*Sidonis: Miranda would let Garrus take the shot. She may think that personal vengeance is not a compelling enough reason, she may also think that Garrus is too hot-headed her. On the other hand, betrayal is a serious matter for her and she would understand. Cyrus Shepard simply thinks it's Garrus' business how he deals with this. He won't interfere.

*Niket: Cyrus Shepard thinks Miranda is a big girl who knows what she can live with and what not. And physically interfering here is out of the question anyway.

*Collector base: after the destruction of the derelict Reaper, there is no other place where we might learn so much about the Reapers. Cyrus Shepard is heavily displeased that he can't prevent TIM from getting exclusive access to it, but even that major concern pales in significance before the Reaper threat. If there's any chance something useful can be found on the base, it must be kept.

*Samara: Cyrus Shepard will not betray Samara. While their philosophies don't exactly match, she is a valuable ally and to kill her for a murder addict with vampiric tendencies is an alternative so utterly stupid that he'd never consider it. I think Miranda would think the same.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

Yeah, It's sort of like Star Trek, The Captain has the XO stay one the Bridge when He/She leaves. Since Miri is not only my LI, but also my XO, it makes sense for her to take Command of the Bridge.

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's the decisions my main Shepard takes in ME2 and my take on Miranda's opinion:

*Veetor: obviously Miranda wants him for interrogation. But I have reason to trust Tali and no reason to trust unnamed Cerberus interrogators, so I left him with the quarians. Question: If you give Veetor to Cerberus, does Miranda have anything to say about the result if you bring her to the Migrant Fleet?

She defends Cerberus interrogation methods.

[ClanMacNab]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Here's the decisions my main Shepard takes in ME2 and my take on Miranda's opinion:

*Veetor: obviously Miranda wants him for interrogation. But I have reason to trust Tali and no reason to trust unnamed Cerberus interrogators, so I left him with the quarians. Question: If you give Veetor to Cerberus, does Miranda have anything to say about the result if you bring her to the Migrant Fleet?

*Genophage Cure: I think the Genophage is necessary and will continue to be. But I may be wrong, and there's no harm in keeping the stuff if it's kept somewhere safe. So I keep it on the reasoning "Better have it and not need it". I think Miranda would agree since this keeps all options open.

*Heretics: Reaper influence could spread through the geth in FTL speed if something goes wrong with the rewrite. Miranda is risk-averse enough in such things that I think she would destroy them. Cyrus Shepard has taken her recommendation.

*Sidonis: Miranda would let Garrus take the shot. She may think that personal vengeance is not a compelling enough reason, she may also think that Garrus is too hot-headed her. On the other hand, betrayal is a serious matter for her and she would understand. Cyrus Shepard simply thinks it's Garrus' business how he deals with this. He won't interfere.

*Niket: Cyrus Shepard thinks Miranda is a big girl who knows what she can live with and what not. And physically interfering here is out of the question anyway.

*Collector base: after the destruction of the derelict Reaper, there is no other place where we might learn so much about the Reapers. Cyrus Shepard is heavily displeased that he can't prevent TIM from getting exclusive access to it, but even that major concern pales in significance before the Reaper threat. If there's any chance something useful can be found on the base, it must be kept.

*Samara: Cyrus Shepard will not betray Samara. While their philosophies don't exactly match, she is a valuable ally and to kill her for a murder addict with vampiric tendencies is an alternative so utterly stupid that he'd never consider it. I think Miranda would think the same.

Cyrus and Miranda make some pretty good arguments there. I'll try to take a lesson from the way you laid it out.