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[android654]

jtav wrote...

Both squick me for different reasons. Jack's is beyond the scope of this thread, but my brain keeps superimposing an almost parental cast to Shep/Miranda, similar to Frankenstein and the Creature. As long as I don't think about it, I'm okay, but I'm really not the target audience for this ship.

It represents an imbalance of interest between the two. It calls Miranda's motivation into question. Its ethically questionable to pursue someone who you brought back to life. Its almost on equal footing with a psychiatrist pursuing a patient in a sexual or romantic way.

The question of Jack and Shepard seems to be even more heavily dependent upon perspective.

[ThomGau]

I understand your Frankenstein argument, sure Miranda could be likened to Shepard's mother.

Nonetheless, in my mind, it conveys a unique link between the two lovers (if Miranda is romanced, of course).
In a sense they've been knowing each other for a longer time than they consciously think .
Of course to some people, what I just said could have made more sense if Miranda and Shepard were in love before ME2. However I prefer it that way, it gives a special start to a relationship which eventually evolves tremendously.

I don't pay attention to the ethical yoke at stake regarding that situation.

Modifié par ThomGau, 31 janvier 2012 - 12:12 .

[Dr. Doctor]

jtav wrote...

Both squick me for different reasons. Jack's is beyond the scope of this thread, but my brain keeps superimposing an almost parental cast to Shep/Miranda, similar to Frankenstein and the Creature. As long as I don't think about it, I'm okay, but I'm really not the target audience for this ship.

I've thought the same thing, and it really kills the romance when I do. The romance (especially the renegade one) really appeals to me because it has Shepard and Miranda forming a mutual respect for each other that turns into a relationship.

Jack's romance in ME2 is less "let's make love before we die" and more about the fact that she genuinely has someone who cares about her. ME3 Jack has a lot of character development, and the romance development reflects it.

[Totally Not Swaggacide]

Seeing Jack change and finally open up to Shepard was very emotional. Call me a sissy if you want i dont care but the first time i saw the whole Jack/Shepard romance i cried.

[jtav]

If I imagine a prior relationship, I can make sense of a romance, but otherwise Miranda inevitably turns into his "mother" in my head.

[android654]

Shepard Rex?

[jtav]

I prefer Frankenstein. Lazarus is Miranda's way of telling her infertility to go to hell.

[Totally Not Swaggacide]

@jtav
i disagree very greatly

[android654]

@Jtzv

So Shepard becomes a physical embodiment of her trumping her own limitations? That could be a new level of conceit that you rarely see in fiction. If that's the case it seems like its entirely about her with almost no thought of him at all. Which actually makes sense for the character.

Modifié par android654, 31 janvier 2012 - 12:33 .

[android654]

jreezy wrote...

jtav wrote...

Lazarus is Miranda's way of telling her infertility to go to hell.

In a way. I think she's still troubled by the fact that she can't create a life through normal female means though.

I don't think she actually cares to be a mother. I think what troubles her is having something that she is unable to do. The fact that something is restricted from her drives her mad and it becomes another goal for her to accomplish.

[jtav]

I see it more positively. Cerberus gives her this task that needs doing and she does it because she believes in them, but it also allows her to create life in a way biology won't let her.

And I think we have to concede a desire for children is canon.

Modifié par jtav, 31 janvier 2012 - 12:37 .

[flemm]

android654 wrote...
Its ethically questionable to pursue someone who you brought back to life.

Is it? I dunno, it's not something that comes up very often

The psychologist-patient thing doesn't really fit, I don't think, because there's really no ongoing treatment, and therefore no question of mixed motivations.

She didn't create Shepard, so she's not a mother figure either. It's not really analogous to Frankenstein, for the same reason.

I guess it's most similar to doctor-patient, with the patient having recovered from a really severe injury. It's like Miranda performed an especially remarkable surgical procedure. But if those two people end up working together and then getting involved, there's really nothing that odd about it.

The whole situation is... interesting, though, that's for certain.

Modifié par flemm, 31 janvier 2012 - 12:38 .

[android654]

jtav wrote...
And I think we have to concede a desire for children is canon.

Its not out of the question for a parent to want children for selfish reasons. Considering her ambitious nature, it seems even more likely.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
And I think we have to concede a desire for children is canon.

Almost undoubtedly, yes, I think so. Though I'm not sure that was clear in Miranda's mind prior to Lazarus. It would appear that Lazarus led her to consider the idea and thereby discover her infertility (along with probably finding out more about her father's methods).

Modifié par flemm, 31 janvier 2012 - 12:43 .

[Totally Not Swaggacide]

The way I see it. Shepard was already a great stringed willed man before he died. Miranda did bring he back to life but she didn't create him so i see nothing wrong their relationship (assuming a romance of course)

[JosephDucreux]

It doesn't look like they confused anyone, it seems more like speculation. I'm still hoping to see Miranda in the demo in a coupla weeks.

[jtav]

I don't know that it was in her mind, either. The idea appeals to me, though, so I stuck it in headcanon. It's only a problem when I sit down to analyze the relationship. I genuinely prefer that dynamic to the romantic.

[JosephDucreux]

jtav wrote...
And I think we have to concede a desire for children is canon.

And what's so bad about that again..? My child is due next month, and it's an amazing experience. My wife plans to be a working mother and juggle the challenges of a job and raising a child. I don't see why Miranda can't do that too.

[flemm]

JosephDucreux wrote...

It doesn't look like they confused anyone, it seems more like speculation.

It's definitely almost pure speculation (and is presented as such). Possibly there is one little detail that is not, but even that is probably not Miranda-related in actual fact.

JosephDucreux wrote...
And what's so bad about that again..?

Nothing

Though to each her/his own, of course.

Modifié par flemm, 31 janvier 2012 - 12:47 .

[jtav]

I was responding to android, Joseph. That said, I don't want children in my ME any more than I want them in my life.

[CrutchCricket]

I resent the drawing of these parallels between Miranda/Shepard and Frankenstein or any sort of parental action. I can see how you might find similarities but I can't understand why you would want to or why you would hold on to them instead of discarding them.
I also view Lazarus more as extreme resuscitation as opposed to true resurrection. So in that light, these associations are even more out of place.

[Totally Not Swaggacide]

i doubt having kids would happen but i wouldn't mind it

[android654]

jtav wrote...

I was responding to android, Joseph. That said, I don't want children in my ME any more than I want them in my life.

Trying to decipher a character's relationship to other characters is much more difficult than deciphering the characters themselves. Does Miranda actually yearn to be a mother? I honestly can't see it. Then again I can't see her rescue of Oriana as entirely selfless. Thsi is someone who willingly takes on just about every struggle she can as well as all of those that remotely include her. I think saving Oriana had more to do with her responsibility to keep her safe more than her desire to actually keep her safe.

As for her being a mother, as much as she abhors how she was raised I think she might see some merit in how it prepared her for the life she now leads. I can see her approaching a child in the same manner.

Aslo, no kids in ME, it simply wouldn't fit.

[jtav]

@Crutch I don't understand this part of your comment: "I can see how you might find similarities but I can't understand why you would want to or why you would hold on to them instead of discarding them." Expand?