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[flemm]

android654 wrote...
Does Miranda actually yearn to be a mother? I honestly can't see it.

I'm not sure I would put it quite that way. But I think she's interested in creating new life, yes. Maybe Lazarus sparked that interest, but it could also be something she inherited from her father. She's not unlike her father in certain ways.

I'm curious as to what subjects *spoiler conversation* will touch on, partly for this reason.

[JosephDucreux]

android654 wrote...

jtav wrote...

I was responding to android, Joseph. That said, I don't want children in my ME any more than I want them in my life.

Trying to decipher a character's relationship to other characters is much more difficult than deciphering the characters themselves. Does Miranda actually yearn to be a mother? I honestly can't see it. Then again I can't see her rescue of Oriana as entirely selfless. Thsi is someone who willingly takes on just about every struggle she can as well as all of those that remotely include her. I think saving Oriana had more to do with her responsibility to keep her safe more than her desire to actually keep her safe.

As for her being a mother, as much as she abhors how she was raised I think she might see some merit in how it prepared her for the life she now leads. I can see her approaching a child in the same manner.

Aslo, no kids in ME, it simply wouldn't fit.

Miranda having kids is probably post ME anyways, so you don't need to worry about gunning down Cerberus goons with a rifle in one hand and cradling your baby with the other. Android, the saving Oriana part was more desire than responsibility going by Miranda's tone. Responsibility doesn't evoke as much panic as desire does.

I see Miranda wanting to be a mother as a form of catharsis. By mothering her natural born child the best she can, she is essentially making up for all the abuse and neglect that she received as a child, as well as compensating for the things she wanted but never could have. It's basically self-atonement via proxy.

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

@Crutch I don't understand this part of your comment: "I can see how you might find similarities but I can't understand why you would want to or why you would hold on to them instead of discarding them." Expand?

I can see how you might find similarities: brilliant scientist uses science & technology to revive the dead with some level of disregard for traditional values/morality.

but I can't understand why you would want to [see it like that] or hold on to it: Why cast it in that light? For one it completely undermines Shepard's character.  The monster was Frankenstein's plaything, his machine. It had nothing of its own either intrinsically or in terms of goals or achievements. If I had to view it this way I would likely disown the entirety of ME2 past the inital cutscene.

The fact is, Shepard is not Miranda's creation in any sense of the word, be it child or science project. She restored parts of him and enhanced others (don't dwell on that one too much) but she didn't create anything. Perhaps what I should've said is "I can see how you might find similarities but I can't understand why you don't see why they fall short"

Of course it demeans the romance as well. If Miranda "frankensteined" Shepard isn't getting with him just glorified masturbation (yeah I went there)? What does that say about Miranda as well? I see no upside to going down this path.

[android654]

flemm wrote...
I'm not sure I would put it quite that way. But I think she's interested in creating new life, yes. Maybe Lazarus sparked that interest, but it could also be something she inherited from her father. She's not unlike her father in certain ways.

I'm curious as to what subjects *spoiler conversation* will touch on, partly for this reason.

*see below*

JosephDucreux wrote...
Miranda having kids is probably post ME anyways, so you don't need to worry about gunning down Cerberus goons with a rifle in one hand and cradling your baby with the other. Android, the saving Oriana part was more desire than responsibility going by Miranda's tone. Responsibility doesn't evoke as much panic as desire does.

I see Miranda wanting to be a mother as a form of catharsis. By mothering her natural born child the best she can, she is essentially making up for all the abuse and neglect that she received as a child, as well as compensating for the things she wanted but never could have. It's basically self-atonement via proxy.

Unless you factor in how much Miranda values responsibility and the value she places on all she's involved in. Its quite literally all she has, her experience and her acts. Failing to protect Oriana is failing to live up to her own standards, and I think its quite evident that Miranda can not stand to disappoint herself.

That's even more selfish that what I proposed. Having a child as a means of therapy is prenatal abuse. In your scenario, she's having a child with the expectation that that child will fix her emotional problems left to her by her father. An impossible standard to place on a child, especially when the attitude and relationship with this child is entirely unknown. If Miranda's child couldn't provide what Miranda wanted, it will flip the dynamic on its head. Its never good to have conditional relationships especially between a parent and a shild.

CrutchCricket wrote...
The fact is, Shepard is not Miranda's creation in any sense of the word, be it child or science project. She restored parts of him and enhanced others (don't dwell on that one too much) but she didn't create anything. Perhaps what I should've said is "I can see how you might find similarities but I can't understand why you don't see why they fall short"

Of course it demeans the romance as well. If Miranda "frankensteined" Shepard isn't getting with him just glorified masturbation (yeah I went there)? What does that say about Miranda as well? I see no upside to going down this path.

On Frankenstein, you're forgetting an important part of the Doctor's actions. Victor did what he did to accomplish a scientific feat. He didn't give much concern to the persons that existed before, his focus was on success. This is central to Miranda's actions in every way. Once she lost control of her creation and saw Shepard actin on his own, her initial reaction is to admonish him only once he begins to show his competence does she give him credit. I think this is because she gives herself credit for his existence, so its an accomplishment for herself as well.

I think some surgeons take great pride in their work when a patient can walk again due to a surgery they performed. It's a testament to their prowess in their craft. Every time Shepard does something right from ME2 on is a stamp of approval for what Miranda did. Without her his story would've ended with him charred by crashing onto a planet. Like it or not his/her life is possible only because of Miranda so Shepard is her monster in a very real sense.

Miranda is quite self obsessed, one would have to be in order to be that successful and to accomplish so much to warrant a title such as "perfect." So yes, she is prone to "masturbation" in just about every sense of the word.

Modifié par android654, 31 janvier 2012 - 01:33 .

[Dr. Doctor]

@ Cricket

That sound you're hearing is Freud's head exploding from beyond the grave.

[flemm]

android654 wrote...
 In your scenario, she's having a child with the expectation that that child will fix her emotional problems left to her by her father.

I don't believe that is what Joseph was suggesting at all. It wouldn't be therapy for herself. But it would make sense that she would want to love and care for a child in order to give that child what she herself was denied. That's partly what motivates her to protect Oriana already.

Logically part of Miranda's character arc would involve some kind of final confrontation with her father as a preamble to moving beyond that, having children of her own, etc.

Modifié par flemm, 31 janvier 2012 - 01:40 .

[android654]

flemm wrote...

android654 wrote...
 In your scenario, she's having a child with the expectation that that child will fix her emotional problems left to her by her father.

I don't believe that is what Joseph was suggesting at all. It wouldn't be therapy for herself. But it would make sense that she would want to love and care for a child in order to give that child what she herself was denied. That's partly what motivates her to protect Oriana already.

That sounds like therapy by proxy. If she raises a child and does so with the sole intent of being an amazing parent, and that child resents her it exposes the condition that Miranda has --whether it be consciously of subconsciously) and it changes their relationship.

[flemm]

android654 wrote...

If she raises a child and does so with the sole intent of being an amazing parent, and that child resents her it exposes the condition that Miranda has --whether it be consciously of subconsciously) and it changes their relationship.

I don't agree, at least not unless parenthood can be considered that way as a general rule. Which it might, in a sense, I suppose. Nobody becomes a parent for entirely unselfish reasons, parents want children to enrich their lives, give them someone to love and care for, and nobody is completely unencumbered by some sort of baggage from how they were raised, etc.

It's always possible for children to resent their parents. Most do, at some point or another, in their lives.

Modifié par flemm, 31 janvier 2012 - 01:45 .

[CrutchCricket]

android654 wrote...
I think some surgeons take great pride in their work when a patient can walk again due to a surgery they performed. It's a testament to their prowess in their craft. Everytime Shepard does something right from ME2 on is a stamp of approval for what Miranda did. Without her his story would've ended with him charred by crashing onto a planet. Like it or not his/her life is possible only because of Miranda so Shepard is her monster in a very real sense.

There's a diffference between taking pride and taking ownership. I fixed someone's computer today but I am in no way responsible for anything other than the restoration of some of its functions. Similarily surgeons do not create a person (or recreate if you want), they merely fix.
And Shepard is not back "only because of Miranda" but rather because of the technology that was put in him. If not her there would've been another. Besides she was not the only one working on the project, there was Wilson and a whole other unseen team. Come to think of it we don't know the extent of her direct involvement anyway. She oversaw the Lazarus project but that could mean everything from helping to operate the little robotic scalpels you see at the start to making sure all the proper requisitioning forms were filled out. Seriously overseeing a project can look like this:

The fact that we know Miranda's a far more competent manager does not mean she necessarily "breathed life" into him.

[android654]

flemm wrote...

android654 wrote...

If she raises a child and does so with the sole intent of being an amazing parent, and that child resents her it exposes the condition that Miranda has --whether it be consciously of subconsciously) and it changes their relationship.

I don't agree, at least not unless parenthood can be considered that way as a general rule. Which it might, in a sense, I suppose. Nobody becomes a parent for entirely unselfish reasons, parents want children to enrich their lives, give them someone to love and care for, and nobody is completely unencumbered by some sort of baggage from how they were raised, etc.

It's always possible for children to resent their parents. Most do, at some point or another, in their lives.

I would argue that most parents who plan to have children do so with some selfish reasons behind it. The only time I can honestly consider people having children without there being anything selfish behind it is when they occur by "happy accidents."

CrutchCricket wrote...

android654 wrote...
I think some surgeons take great pride in their work when a patient can walk again due to a surgery they performed. It's a testament to their prowess in their craft. Everytime Shepard does something right from ME2 on is a stamp of approval for what Miranda did. Without her his story would've ended with him charred by crashing onto a planet. Like it or not his/her life is possible only because of Miranda so Shepard is her monster in a very real sense.

There's a diffference between taking pride and taking ownership. I fixed someone's computer today but I am in no way responsible for anything other than the restoration of some of its functions. Similarily surgeons do not create a person (or recreate if you want), they merely fix.
And Shepard is not back "only because of Miranda" but rather because of the technology that was put in him. If not her there would've been another. Besides she was not the only one working on the project, there was Wilson and a whole other unseen team. Come to think of it we don't know the extent of her direct involvement anyway. She oversaw the Lazarus project but that could mean everything from helping to operate the little robotic scalpels you see at the start to making sure all the proper requisitioning forms were filled out. Seriously overseeing a project can look like this:

The fact that we know Miranda's a far more competent manager does not mean she necessarily "breathed life" into him.

A person is of more consequence than a computer. It's different from fixing a person to fixing a thing.

But there wasn't another. TIM gives Miranda a position of importance and everything he tells her to do comes with an overtone of importance. So whether its true or not, Miranda sees herself as the only one equipped to do whatever it is she's doing. The implication is there that she was "in charge" of the project responsible for bringing him back to life. How we read into that difers from perspective to perspective.

[flemm]

android654 wrote...

I would argue that most parents who plan to have children do so with some selfish reasons behind it.

I agree, but that doesn't mean it is the wrong choice, or that they will be bad parents.

[jtav]

@Crutch because she worked a miracle. This wasn't the heart stopping for two seconds, but a full-blown resurrection. Dead and decomposing matter restored to life. So, yeah, I see Frankenstein parallels. And I don't give two credits for the romance because it doesn't exist in my universe. I'm not saying "this is how it is for everyone" just why the romance fails when I actually think about it.

[JosephDucreux]

I wasn't saying a conditional parental relationship for Miranda in my above post. Given that she lacked unconditional love as a child, she would more likely than not shower her child with unconditional love as part of her atonement via proxy.

[CrutchCricket]

android654 wrote...

A person is of more consequence than a computer. It's different from fixing a person to fixing a thing.

But there wasn't another. TIM gives Miranda a position of importance and everything he tells her to do comes with an overtone of importance. So whether its true or not, Miranda sees herself as the only one equipped to do whatever it is she's doing. The implication is there that she was "in charge" of the project responsible for bringing him back to life. How we read into that difers from perspective to perspective.

Is it now? Adding cybernetics tends to blur the lines does it not? To say nothing of AI.  If Shepard's having problems, who does he see now? A doctor? Or an IT guy? Joking of course. But on a more serious note, the methods may be different but the goals and in some cases the workflow is the same. Particularly if we're discussing sci-fi of this variety where nature and tech start courting each other.

How do we know there wasn't another? That assumption has no basis. There could've been medical or scientific personnell in Cerberus just as perfectly qualified to bring Shepard back. Why weren't they chosen? Perhaps because TIM needed someone with operative experience, someone who could handle combat if need be, if treachery was afoot (as it turned out to be) or if Shepard became violent. That's all well and good but those are qualifications outside the simple medical scope of reviving Shepard. There is no evidence to support the reasoning that Miranda was uniquely qualified medically for this proceedure.

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

@Crutch because she worked a miracle. This wasn't the heart stopping for two seconds, but a full-blown resurrection. Dead and decomposing matter restored to life. So, yeah, I see Frankenstein parallels. And I don't give two credits for the romance because it doesn't exist in my universe. I'm not saying "this is how it is for everyone" just why the romance fails when I actually think about it.

Decomposing? Really? Is this some comic book details I'm not aware of? I'd need to see it. I'll agree the lines of life and death may have been redrawn. I do not yet agree that anyone truly crossed them (apart from technicalities and plays on words).
Apart from that see the ongoing "replacable Miranda" discussion. You can pursue the romance or not. It is your choice. But I'm saying it shouldn't fail, at least not for the reasons you describe.

[jtav]

Yep. Decomposing. Couldn't tell if it was a man or a woman. And Miranda is treated as irreplaceable in the leak, by both TIM and Shepard--the only person who could pull this off.

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

Yep. Decomposing. Couldn't tell if it was a man or a woman. And Miranda is treated as irreplaceable in the leak, by both TIM and Shepard--the only person who could pull this off.

Because we all know how reliable the leak is....<_<

No doubt Miranda alone possesed the necessary medical skills and operative skills to succeed at this project. But I find it hard to believe she was the only one with the scientific skill to do so. Like I said there's no evidence to disprove the existence of some other scientist that could handle the science but not so much the combat (or perhaps even the leadership and administration). And obviously she didn't do it alone.

I stick by my statements of life and death. Clearly humans in the 22nd (or is it 23rd) century are far more resilient than we are (see Zaeed surviving a headshot from a mass accelerated round point blank)

[Skullheart]

It was an impossible assignment, and Miranda was the only one who could achieve it.

[android654]

flemm wrote...

android654 wrote...

I would argue that most parents who plan to have children do so with some selfish reasons behind it.

I agree, but that doesn't mean it is the wrong choice, or that they will be bad parents.

I wasn't arguing that. What I'm arguing is having a kid with even a subconscious hope that they could be a remedy to your pain or that you could do better to her that what was done to you is a recipe for disaster.

JosephDucreux wrote...

I wasn't saying a conditional parental relationship for Miranda in my above post. Given that she lacked unconditional love as a child, she would more likely than not shower her child with unconditional love as part of her atonement via proxy.

Not every "bad" child is a product of a broken home. Some children come from parents who love them and shower them with care, yet for some reason they turn against their parents. How do parents feel in that situation? Betrayed, they placed so much care and effort into a child who turned on them.

This would apply to someone even more who places considerable effort to rectify their own abuse by caring for this new child.

Therein lies the condition of that relationship, and that's where problems grow between a parent and child.

CrutchCricket wrote...

android654 wrote...

A person is of more consequence than a computer. It's different from fixing a person to fixing a thing.

But there wasn't another. TIM gives Miranda a position of importance and everything he tells her to do comes with an overtone of importance. So whether its true or not, Miranda sees herself as the only one equipped to do whatever it is she's doing. The implication is there that she was "in charge" of the project responsible for bringing him back to life. How we read into that difers from perspective to perspective.

Is it now? Adding cybernetics tends to blur the lines does it not? To say nothing of AI.  If Shepard's having problems, who does he see now? A doctor? Or an IT guy? Joking of course. But on a more serious note, the methods may be different but the goals and in some cases the workflow is the same. Particularly if we're discussing sci-fi of this variety where nature and tech start courting each other.

How do we know there wasn't another? That assumption has no basis. There could've been medical or scientific personnell in Cerberus just as perfectly qualified to bring Shepard back. Why weren't they chosen? Perhaps because TIM needed someone with operative experience, someone who could handle combat if need be, if treachery was afoot (as it turned out to be) or if Shepard became violent. That's all well and good but those are qualifications outside the simple medical scope of reviving Shepard. There is no evidence to support the reasoning that Miranda was uniquely qualified medically for this proceedure.

That is entirely speculative. From the context of the story, Miranda is responsible for the project and we know she was physically in the room while he was being worked on. Like it or not, as far as the story goes she's the person who brought him back. There's nothing anywhere in the story to suggest otherwise.

[CrutchCricket]

android654 wrote...
That is entirely speculative. From the context of the story, Miranda is responsible for the project and we know she was physically in the room while he was being worked on. Like it or not, as far as the story goes she's the person who brought him back. There's nothing anywhere in the story to suggest otherwise.

And what have we been doing all this time if not speculating? We know she was in the room for sure in at least two distinctive points in time. Is there any evidence to negate the hypothesis that those were the only times she was there? Nope.

This is getting all theoretical anyway. Obviously Miranda was crucial to bringing Shepard back. Given the complete circumstances, of course she was the only one pefectly suited for that role. I don't know where you got the impression that was being questioned (or that I had a problem with it). But there is no evidence provided that she was the only one that could do so from a purely medical/scientific perspective.

I can accept a doctor-patient relationship between them at the start of ME2. But that in no way compells me to accept a creator-creation parallel or any such thing. Any romance between them might've breached some medical ethics if treatment had been ongoing. As it stands that doesn't exist, nor would it bother me if it did.

Anyway I think I'd rather play some ME2 now (I've sure talked about it enough). Off to rescue Jack.

[Shepherd10]

[quote]flemm wrote...

[quote]android654 wrote...
Its ethically questionable to pursue someone who you brought back to life.[/quote]

Right, because this is so common in our modern and REAL world, it practically happens every day. (End sarcasm) Unless you all know something I don't, I'm pretty sure this type of technological advance hasn't happened in real life.

[Dr. Doctor]

jtav wrote...

Yep. Decomposing. Couldn't tell if it was a man or a woman. And Miranda is treated as irreplaceable in the leak, by both TIM and Shepard--the only person who could pull this off.

I always sort of thought that Miranda was the Cerberus HR department's big gun. Do you have a team or a project that absolutely-positively has to succeed? Send her in, she's not so much a specialized tool as a Swiss Army Operative. Miranda says herself that she's good at anything she puts her mind to and she's a consummate planner.

Pretty much her strength isn't her ability to do things single-handedly but the fact that she can solve problems using the people and the resources that are available. She's right when she says that she doesn't have Shepard's ability to get others to follow him into hell, but that's mostly because he's A Father to His Men. She doesn't give praise or respect easily and she expects a lot out of the people under her command, while she might not be the beloved leader she's not willing to throw her people's lives away for trivial reasons.

Modifié par Dr. Doctor, 31 janvier 2012 - 05:13 .

[Ieldra]

jtav, your mood swings with regard to the romance never cease to amaze me.

Also while I get parental vibes from Miranda's attitude to Oriana, to Shepard, not in the least. Lazarus is a reconstruction, not a creation. That Shepard was dead is a special complication with existential implications, but that doesn't change the fact that Lazarus was a reconstruction. Miranda says it herself in the station logs: "If Shepard is somehow not the man/woman (s)he used to be, the Lazarus project will have failed." The control chip comment supports this, too: Miranda was well aware Shepard had destroyed Cerberus projects and it was quite possible he would turn out to be an implacable enemy and go on a rampage of destruction after awakening. Her reasoning for the control chip was based on Shepard being the same as they'd been before - reconstructed.

I can see people having problems with the romance, but I think you're overthinking this aspect. It shouldn't pose any problems at all because the point is explicitly made that Shepard is reconstructed, not created.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 janvier 2012 - 07:02 .

[Tallis Lucienis]

Simply put: My shep loves Mianda. He needs her.

Please bring her back