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[shepard1038]

MisterJB wrote...

First of all Cerberus is not a terrorist organization.
Second, in ME1 Hackett manipulated Shepard into doing the Alliance's dirty work wether it was recovering probes we didn't want the Council getting its hands or or actual assassination which makes him as much a murderer as TIM. Not to mention that Hackett is instrumental in using the geth to kill the Council and taking over the Citadel for the betterment of mankind and he is more than willing to use Shepard as a scapegoat for the batarians.
What exactly makes them so different again?

Yes it is, It was Shepard's decision to save the council or not, Shepard killed 300,000 thousand batarians how
can Shepard justify that and he can't say: It was to stop the reapers from entering, because no one believes
Shepard except Hackett and his squadmembers , Cerberus has killed popes, admirals, civilians, abducted
children if that isn't a terrorist organization then I don't what it is.And don't forget what they are doing now in
Mass effect 3.

[shepard1038]

Anyway let's get back to discussing Miri.

[Dr. Doctor]

MisterJB wrote...

Hackett is not Shepard's friend. The Commander is willing to do covert operations for Hackett who, in return, makes sure the Alliance is off his back. It's a mutually beneficial relationship.

To be clear, Hackett is one of the few people in the Alliance that I like but he is no more Shepard's friend than The Illusive Man.

TIM usually will tell you the truth, he'll omit certain information that could be important but he tells the truth. You're more likely to be killed by what he didn't tell you about more  than what he does.

In ME1 at least Shepard was the Alliance's cleaner. First Contact War-era nuclear bomb probe? Shepard better go take care of it before the Council yells at the Alliance for it. Major Kyle? Shepard better go clear out him and his followers before the Council finds out an ex-Alliance officer is stirring up trouble in the Traverse.

Neither of them are Shepard's friends, he's just an asset for both organizations.

[MACharlie1]

MisterJB wrote...

MegaBadExample wrote...

Again, Shepard is an Alliance soldier it's what he signed up for. So of course, he’s going to be offered missions from the Alliance/Hackett in ME1, Jesus.

And if I remember right. Hackett asked for your help in ME2. Open and honest wit it. Can't say the same for TIM.

First of all, Shepard was a Spectre. He can tell Hackett to stuff his missions where the sun doesn't shine and there's nothing the admiral can do about it.

Second, honesty from Hackett? Someone seems to be forgetting UNC: The Negotiation.
http://masseffect.wi...The_Negotiation

Hackett lied and manipulated Shepard so as to get the job done. Same as TIM.

Hackett is authorized by a government organization who, ideally, was created to benefit the people it serves. All governments in truth are most concerned with making a profit. Remember that Lord Darius was costing the Alliiance MONEY. He wasn't assasinated for politcal goals. So while the Alliance is simply a huge organized crime syndicate, Cerberus is a terrorist organization because the goals are political/religious/morally based rather then profit motivated. 

[jtav]

Not strictly Miranda related but I did a short Oriana-centric ficlet set in ME3 where she, among other things, mulls what made Miranda tick. Comments more than welcome.

[Dr. Doctor]

@MisterJB

In ME1 Hackett said that even though he's a Spectre who reports to the Council, Shepard is still a part of the Alliance Navy and therefore is subject to orders given by his superiors.

[MisterJB]

Terrorists use terror as a tactic to achieve their goals.
Cerberus does not, therefore, Cerberus is not a terrorist organization.

Dr. Doctor wrote...

@MisterJB

In ME1 Hackett said that even though he's a Spectre who reports to the Council, Shepard is still a part of the Alliance Navy and therefore is subject to orders given by his superiors.

Which could have merely been a lie in order to better manipulate Shepard.
The logic is not sound. The Council would not accept Spectres having conflicts of interests.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 février 2012 - 08:36 .

[MisterJB]

doublepost, sorry.

Modifié par MisterJB, 03 février 2012 - 08:34 .

[MACharlie1]

MisterJB wrote...

Terrorists use terror as a tactic to achieve their goals.
Cerberus does not, therefore, Cerberus is not a terrorist organization.

That is not how you define a terrorist organization. In fact, that is a ****** poor way of defining it. They use violence to achieve political goals. That makes them a terrorist group. Hell, it's even structured as a terrorist group. Cells all operating independant from each other, only reporting to TIM. One goes down, the organization isn't compromised. 

FBI definition:

International terrorism involves violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any state, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or any state. These acts appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping. International terrorist acts occur outside the United States or transcend national boundaries in terms of the means by which they are accomplished, the persons they appear intended to coerce or intimidate, or the locale in which their perpetrators operate or seek asylum.

[wright1978]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

@MisterJB

In ME1 Hackett said that even though he's a Spectre who reports to the Council, Shepard is still a part of the Alliance Navy and therefore is subject to orders given by his superiors.

In ME1 the Alliance just considers getting Shephard made a Spectre is a step along the way to getting the powerful seat on the council. That doesn't make their lack of respect for  the independence of the Spectres correct.

[Skullheart]

Well, cerberus is knowed as a terrorist organization just because the council labeled them like that. I'll say that they are a rogue black op team. And I don't know what's Council main problem with cerberus, most of their bases we encountered were are outside council space.

Well, enough of Cerberus, TIM or Hackett. This is a Miranda thread.

@jtav
Didn't you plan to use that on Ghost? I remember you posted something like that a time ago.

[MisterJB]

MACharlie1 wrote...
That is not how you define a terrorist organization. In fact, that is a ****** poor way of defining it. They use violence to achieve political goals.

By that logic, almost all governments in the world are terrorist organizations.

Hell, it's even structured as a terrorist group. Cells all operating independant from each other, only reporting to TIM. One goes down, the organization isn't compromised.

So are the Spectres.

These acts appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping.

Of these three, only the last one fits Cerberus. Cerberus does not use intimidation or coercion, they use assassination and subterfuge.

[Ieldra]

Can we PLEASE stop discussing the merits of the Alliance and Cerberus? There are COUNTLESS threads about that and it will almost certainly derail this thread for the next 100 pages. If it continues, I'll report the offending parties.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 février 2012 - 08:45 .

[MACharlie1]

MisterJB wrote...

MACharlie1 wrote...
That is not how you define a terrorist organization. In fact, that is a ****** poor way of defining it. They use violence to achieve political goals.

By that logic, almost all governments in the world are terrorist organizations.

Hell, it's even structured as a terrorist group. Cells all operating independant from each other, only reporting to TIM. One goes down, the organization isn't compromised.

So are the Spectres.

These acts appear to be intended to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion, or affect the conduct of a government by assassination or kidnapping.

Of these three, only the last one fits Cerberus. Cerberus does not use intimidation or coercion, they use assassination and subterfuge.

As I've said before: YEP. All governments are criminal organizations. Again, the difference being goals: governments do what they do for profit. As for the Spectres, they aren't organized. It's one guy who answers to the Council. They themselves can be terrorists though. 

Please notice the OR in that last one. And you completely ignored the first criteria: violent acts or acts dangerous to human life that are a violation of the criminal laws of the United States or any state, or that would be a criminal violation if committed within the jurisdiction of the United States or any state.

Modifié par MACharlie1, 03 février 2012 - 08:50 .

[MisterJB]

Changing this to PMs, now.

[jtav]

You know, I sometimes wonder if Miranda might be on the verge of sliding into depression. She does strike me as self-loathing and in a great deal of pain, though she keeps that carefully hidden.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
You know, I sometimes wonder if Miranda might be on the verge of sliding into depression.

I don't think there's anything in the game that really supports this. She's a bit of a special case in that she struggles with self-esteem, but not self-confidence. In a pretty short span of time, she's integral to the success of the Lazarus Project and the Suicide Mission (both against pretty long odds).

And then there's the fact that she escaped from her father, rather than mope around lamenting her fate, and then she leaves Cerberus without hesitation as well, when the situation calls for it in her mind. None of this really corresponds to the behavior of someone who is prone to depression.

There's certainly plenty of pain, there, though. But that's a bit of separate issue.

Modifié par flemm, 03 février 2012 - 09:02 .

[Td1984]

Ieldra2 wrote...

About Shepard and the Alliance:

How people roleplay their Shepards is their choice, MegaBadExample. If, for some reason, they've come to hate the Alliance, who are you to say they shouldn't. There could be any number of reasons. At the same time, whether they come to trust TIM or not is their choice again, who are you to say what others' Shepards think?

Here's another story as an example:
Cyrus Shepard joined the Alliance because it was a way out of the slums (Earthborn background). He had a talent for soldiering and leadership, but his true calling was covert operations. A large part of his years in the Alliance he spent in military intelligence, though his clearance was never high enough to get behind the events on Akuze. He came to believe in advancing humanity and his experience brought him to think the Alliance was too conservative with research and technological development, held back by public opinion. That's why he appreciated the opportunity to work with Cerberus, apart from the necessity to destroy the Collectors. Not that he really trusted the Illusive Man, but he stands behind the ideals put forward in the Cerberus Manifesto. His appreciation of the organization took a serious hit when he discovered the extent of their atrocities. Nonetheless, he thought it necessary that someone studied the Collector base, even if it was Cerberus. Where he stands at the start of ME3 is not clear. The Alliance and Cerberus have both lost his respect, people like Anderson and Hackett on one side and Miranda on the other notwithstanding.

As an aside, I think Miranda, too, is beyond the existing factions at the start of ME3, and for much the same reasons.

*snip*

Sounds like our Sheps have a lot in common. With the exception that since my canon Shep is Soldier, covert ops is not exactly his specialty.

[Ieldra]

You know what I think about that, jtav. You always overstate Miranda's self-esteem problems and you've done so from day one. I've disagreed with that from day one. I was even tempted to delete the "Broken Ace" entry you put into Miranda's section at tvtropes. That's totally off IMO. No idea why the idea's so attractive to you.

But thanks for bringing the discussion on-topic again.

Edit:
Also, what flemm said.

Edit2:
It appears I was wrong assuming you edited Miranda's character sheet. Sorry about that. Anyway, I *was* tempted to delete the "Broken Ace" entry. Miranda is NOT broken, damn it.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 03 février 2012 - 09:09 .

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

You know, I sometimes wonder if Miranda might be on the verge of sliding into depression. She does strike me as self-loathing and in a great deal of pain, though she keeps that carefully hidden.

No.

[shepard1038]

jtav wrote...

You know, I sometimes wonder if Miranda might be on the verge of sliding into depression. She does strike me as self-loathing and in a great deal of pain, though she keeps that carefully hidden.

I hope not, that's because what his father did to her.

[jtav]

It comes through pretty strongly if you don't let her talk to her sister. It's pretty clear that security isn't why she's staying away. More that she's afraid she's somehow toxic for her sister or that Oriana will reject her.

[shepard1038]

jtav wrote...

It comes through pretty strongly if you don't let her talk to her sister. It's pretty clear that security isn't why she's staying away. More that she's afraid she's somehow toxic for her sister or that Oriana will reject her.

Clearly self steem, and because what her father did to her, not wanting that to happen to her.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

It comes through pretty strongly if you don't let her talk to her sister. It's pretty clear that security isn't why she's staying away. More that she's afraid she's somehow toxic for her sister or that Oriana will reject her.

Hmmmm can't say I really agree. She puts Oriana's safety and happiness above her own. So, encouraging her to talk to Oriana is almost like encouraging her to... indulge. Miranda tends to have unrealistically high standards for herself. But that's not the same thing as self-loathing.

[shepard1038]

Also what type of background is better with Miranda:
1.earthborn
2.colonist
3.spacer
Also:
1.war hero
2.Ruthless
3.survivor