82210 réponses à ce sujet

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The problem is, we're supposed to take the ME universe at least halfway seriously.

According to whom?

I think it would be more accurate to say that serious/fantastical elements actually co-exist in perfect harmony in fiction, and always have.

There really is no "problem." Just different people wanting different things.

Modifié par flemm, 05 février 2012 - 05:49 .

[jtav]

ME2 is noticeably softer sci-fi than ME. There's much more "physics/biology/etc doesn't work that way." I don't mind, but it annoys some.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
 I don't mind, but it annoys some.

Undoubtedly true. But that fits under the heading "different people wanting different things."

It's just a question of emphasis anyway. One might be able to make the case that there are more fantastical elements in ME2, but there are so many in ME1 already that it's hardly a giant leap.

Modifié par flemm, 05 février 2012 - 05:50 .

[100k]

Ieldra2 wrote...
The problem is, we're supposed to take the ME universe at least halfway seriously.

I disagree again. I take Batman's stories seriously. And Watchmen. And V for Vendetta. Etc, etc. All Superheroes wearing minor armor.

I'd criticize your standard superhero outfit as well if it wasn't a genre built on over-the-top badassery we aren't supposed to take seriously in the first place. ME attempts to be SF, with a few more or less acceptable breaks from reality. SF and superhero stories have different genre conventions, and mixing them up runs the danger of backfiring. IMO, it has backfired badly in ME2.

Zaeed Massani took a bullet to the head and survived. Garrus Valkarian mowed down several dozen mercs before taking a rocket to the shoulder, and being shot by a gun ship. Samara has wiped out entire villages in order to take out her daughter. 

I'd say that fits the definition of over-the-top. And that's not even commenting on their outfits.

[flemm]

100k wrote...
I disagree again. I take Batman's stories seriously. And Watchmen. And V for Vendetta. Etc, etc. All Superheroes wearing minor armor.

Agreed. Even leaving aside Pulitzer prize winning graphic novels and such, the big comic book icons are more deeply rooted in certain collective concerns and anxieties than anything in Mass Effect ever will be. Doesn't make them any less fantastical and silly from a certain point of view. But fiction doesn't really connect to reality by mimicking it. It's more indirect and complex than that most of the time.

Ieldra2 wrote...
IMO, it has backfired badly in ME2.

Where does that fit with the GotY awards, strong sales, very high meta-critic scores and all that sort of thing?

Modifié par flemm, 05 février 2012 - 06:02 .

[Td1984]

jtav wrote...

If you were tasked with putting Miranda on the squad, how would you go about it? I'd have her in Alliance custody. When Cerberus reveals itself as an enemy, you're asked to take her aboard the Normandy for possible intel. Only Leng is hunting her too. You rescue her and she takes the same role Jack had in ME2 of gadfly. Toss her in the brig if you want to make the parallels really explicit.

No brig for her. If she were in Alliance custody, great. That makes it easier to get her, instead of having to go into a war zone to save her. As for her quarters, well her old office is apparently occupied, so there's only one other place she could stay   

[Ieldra]

flemm wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The problem is, we're supposed to take the ME universe at least halfway seriously.

According to whom?

I think it would be more accurate to say that serious/fantastical elements actually co-exist in perfect harmony in fiction, and always have.

There really is no "problem." Just different people wanting different things.

As I see it, ME1 set the tone of the series, and it was quite a bit less over-the-top in visual presentation. Also, there are such things as genre conventions. Put too much superhero stuff in your SF work and at some point it ceases to be SF. That's somewhat subjective admittedly, but I think it's a good guideline to not let the fantastic elements overwhelm the SF stuff. Especially, as in the case of outfits, if they serve no other function but to make the characters iconic. As DA2 shows, that can be done without going over into a different genre.

[Dr. Doctor]

jtav wrote...

ME2 is noticeably softer sci-fi than ME. There's much more "physics/biology/etc doesn't work that way." I don't mind, but it annoys some.

Humans are special more genetically diverse. Logical from the standpoint that most other races live on what appear to be single-biome planets or have been interbreeding for centuries while humanity has only recently come to the galactic stage. Annoying from the standpoint that it seems like a cheap plot device to explain why the Collectors were abducting humans.

That is all.

jtav wrote...
If you were tasked with putting Miranda on
the squad, how would you go about it? I'd have her in Alliance custody.
When Cerberus reveals itself as an enemy, you're asked to take her
aboard the Normandy for possible intel. Only Leng is hunting her too.
You rescue her and she takes the same role Jack had in ME2 of gadfly.
Toss her in the brig if you want to make the parallels really
explicit.

That's the reason why I'm happy that Miranda isn't going to be on the ME3 squad. If she did come back I'd be afraid of her turning into another  ME2 Garrus with little character development or dialogue. The way that its set up Miranda undergoes character development that doesn't hinge upon Shepard's actions, she stands on her own.

[Ieldra]

100k wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The problem is, we're supposed to take the ME universe at least halfway seriously.

I disagree again. I take Batman's stories seriously. And Watchmen. And V for Vendetta. Etc, etc. All Superheroes wearing minor armor.

You take the stories seriously. As do I. There are some really good stories told in superhero universes. But you don't take the world they play in seriously, don't you? It's a matter of worldbuilding, not of storytelling. Admittedly I'm somewhat obsessed with that aspect, but the reason is the half-assed way too many authors put their worlds together. ME is actually one of the better examples, but things went downhill from ME1 to ME2. Some of the new things may be worth the price, but as I see it, the outfits weren't.  

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 février 2012 - 07:07 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
If you were tasked with putting Miranda on the squad, how would you go about it? I'd have her in Alliance custody. When Cerberus reveals itself as an enemy, you're asked to take her aboard the Normandy for possible intel. Only Leng is hunting her too. You rescue her and she takes the same role Jack had in ME2 of gadfly. Toss her in the brig if you want to make the parallels really explicit.

No brig. Enough that she rest of the crew likely despises her, though Garrus and Tali should have a more differentiated opinion. And it would need to be explained how the Alliance got hold of her.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 05 février 2012 - 07:12 .

[Jynthor]

Couldn't think of anything to say, so here goes;
Miri fan reporting, hi.

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
As I see it, ME1 set the tone of the series, and it was quite a bit less over-the-top in visual presentation. Also, there are such things as genre conventions.

Genre conventions exist, but that doesn't mean they should be followed rigidly.

Regardless, Mass Effect is mostly pulp sci-fi, a genre in which extravagant outfits, "aliens" who are pretty much "humans with a twist," green/blue space babes who fall all over themselves for the human hero, some sort of magic (basically) faster-than-light travel, etc., etc. are all pretty much par for the course.

So, ME2 didn't violate any genre conventions. At most it presented a slightly different take on some of them. Inevitably, opinions about what take is preferable will vary according to individual taste.

Modifié par flemm, 05 février 2012 - 07:45 .

[Dr. Doctor]

Ieldra2 wrote...

You take the stories seriously. As do I. There are some really good stories told in superhero universes. But you don't take the world they play in seriously, don't you? It's a matter of worldbuilding, not of storytelling. Admittedly I'm somewhat obsessed with that aspect, but the reason is the half-assed way too many authors put their worlds together. ME is actually one of the better examples, but things went downhill from ME1 to ME2. Some of the new things may be worth the price, but as I see it, the outfits weren't.  

ME2's world sort of generates mixed feelings with me. Horizon and the other human colonies that were started to get away from the Alliance brought back fond memories of Firefly. The Terminus in general succeded in making the ME universe feel more lived-in than the sterile environments we saw in ME1.

Squadwise I think that the whole Dirty Dozen-like suicide squad mechanic wasn't that great. We have some really great characters (Miranda, Mordin, Samara, Thane, Jack, and Legion) some characters who are just there because they're "fan favorites" (Team Dextro) and Jacob. Having that many party members is going to put a strain on how much dialogue they get and in ME2's case it shows. In a way ME3's transition back to a smaller squad really opens up oppertunities for really good characterization.

Even the ME2 squadmates going off and doing their own thing isn't a completely bad thing. I'd much rather have the romance continuation/character development with Miranda occur in a few big chunks instead of "I'll come by when its quiet" for half the game.

[100k]

Ieldra2 wrote...

100k wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
The problem is, we're supposed to take the ME universe at least halfway seriously.

I disagree again. I take Batman's stories seriously. And Watchmen. And V for Vendetta. Etc, etc. All Superheroes wearing minor armor.

You take the stories seriously. As do I. There are some really good stories told in superhero universes. But you don't take the world they play in seriously, don't you? It's a matter of worldbuilding, not of storytelling. Admittedly I'm somewhat obsessed with that aspect, but the reason is the half-assed way too many authors put their worlds together.

I guess I'm having a difficult time understanding what your view point is then, because I find the idea of the "world" of Gotham, or a corrupt New York, London, or LA far more "believable" (in theory) than the idea that a "mass effect field" allowing faster than light travel, solid-yet-holographic interfaces, and breathable atmospheres in vacuum. 

Don't get me wrong, I love the concept behind Mass Effect, but if you're going to fault one universe for being too fantastical, then you should start with the one that goes really BIG.  

ME is actually one of the better examples, but things went downhill from ME1 to ME2. Some of the new things may be worth the price, but as I see it, the outfits weren't.  

Agreed, but I'd say it went downhill from the perspectives of story telling, not so much design. 

[Spanky Magoo]

jtav wrote...

If you were tasked with putting Miranda on the squad, how would you go about it? I'd have her in Alliance custody. When Cerberus reveals itself as an enemy, you're asked to take her aboard the Normandy for possible intel. Only Leng is hunting her too. You rescue her and she takes the same role Jack had in ME2 of gadfly. Toss her in the brig if you want to make the parallels really explicit.

Well, I wish we could have a scene where shepard tells the alliance instead of having to prove himself to them, they have to earn his trust. Miri helped him save all of their lives and now after they wanted to throw him under the bus and then they want to imprison the second best chance or humanity. Yeah, about that lol. 

I know that this wont happen but im not a big fan of the alliance.

Or a scene where you can tell the alliance crew to shove it if they have a problem taking orders from Miri (after she resumes her place as second in command of course) then they are replaceable, she is not.

Idk, im dissaponted that she wont be an xo this time around but hopefully they will do her justice.

Modifié par Spanky Magoo, 05 février 2012 - 08:09 .

[Dr. Doctor]

Considering that Cerberus appears to be fighing Shepard every step of the way in ME3 and the popular Alliance view considers them to be a terrorist organization I could picture something bad happening happening onboard the Normandy if Allers attempted to interview Miranda about Cerberus.

[wright1978]

jtav wrote...

If you were tasked with putting Miranda on the squad, how would you go about it? I'd have her in Alliance custody. When Cerberus reveals itself as an enemy, you're asked to take her aboard the Normandy for possible intel. Only Leng is hunting her too. You rescue her and she takes the same role Jack had in ME2 of gadfly. Toss her in the brig if you want to make the parallels really explicit.

I'd probably have her on the run at the start of the game. During the game she would offer her help to deal with a Cerberus related target after which Shephard could recruit her. Recruiting her would provide additional intel on Cerberus but theThe Virmire survivor/alliance would react negatively to her presence.

[shepard1038]

wright1978 wrote...

jtav wrote...

If you were tasked with putting Miranda on the squad, how would you go about it? I'd have her in Alliance custody. When Cerberus reveals itself as an enemy, you're asked to take her aboard the Normandy for possible intel. Only Leng is hunting her too. You rescue her and she takes the same role Jack had in ME2 of gadfly. Toss her in the brig if you want to make the parallels really explicit.

I'd probably have her on the run at the start of the game. During the game she would offer her help to deal with a Cerberus related target after which Shephard could recruit her. Recruiting her would provide additional intel on Cerberus but theThe Virmire survivor/alliance would react negatively to her presence.

Given that the Vs talk's bad about Miri in Me3.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

deleted

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 05 février 2012 - 10:32 .

[Skullheart]

A way to have Miranda as a squadmate or at least on the Normandy: complications with Shepard's implants. She was the one who brought Shepard back to life, and she is the only one who can help him/her regarding Lazarus issues.

[jtav]

They really should take a page or three from Bucky/Natasha for Shep/Miranda. Bucky is very obviously head over heels for Natasha, saying she "amazes" him. She's supportive when he starts beating himself up. And they have this wonderful, teasing relationship where the first one spotted during a covert op has to buy breakfast. Oh, and they're badass. This is what I want Shep/Miranda to be.

And this is totally a rec for the Winter Soldier comic.

[Han Shot First]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

We would've had much less traffic if not for all the complaining about Miranda's oversexualized presentation, that's for sure

Was the complaining focused on some of the camera angles or her outfits? The former I can sort of understand,  but certainly not the latter. Miranda is the femme fatale of Mass Effect 2. While there is a lot more to the character than just her sex appeal, the sex appeal is still a big part of who the character is.

The aversion to the camera angles was almost universal. The outfits are more controversial. From my point of view, there are several problems with Miranda's outfits: First, in any kind of fight, you won't wear stuff so thin that it looks like painted on the skin. Agility and Barriers are fine, but the former won't protect you against what you don't see coming, and the latter costs your body energy to keep up. Second, if you're a member of a secret paramilitary group, you want to be inconspicuous and not draw everyone's attention unless you're on a mission where need to use your sex appeal. Third, the white catsuit looks like made for the cheap thrill. Miranda would wear something more stylish. Fourth, if your life is on the line, your femme fatale aspect should take a backseat.

It isn't just Miranda whose outfits are ridiculous of course. IMO, the whole concept of "iconic" outfits needs to be toned down from its comic book superhero origins to fit something like the ME universe.

I agree with you on a couple points. It does make little sense for a secret (and banned) paramilitary organization to wear uniforms and plaster their logo all over their uniforms and ships. Most of the time they'd want to hide their true identities rather than advertising it to the galaxy at large. While I have no issue with Miranda wearing sexy outfits (and think it fits her character), I don't think those outfits should have had the Cerberus logo on them. Though to be fair that problem exists not just with Miranda but with the entire crew of the Normandy (including Shepard) and the Normandy itself. It would have made much more sense for Shepard & company to be disguised as just another mecenary band operating in the Terminus.

I also think she should have had seperate outfits from the start for more settled areas (like Ilium or Omega) and more combat oriented outfits for places like Tuchanka or uncharted worlds, or places where she'd be exposed to the vacuum.

Bioware should have also made the femme fatale aspect of her character more mission relevant. There should have been a couple points in the game where Miranda could have used her looks (and those catsuits) to her advantage. Rather than having to run and gun through some points, there should have been a couple instances where Miranda was able to gather information through her looks, charm her way through checkpoints, or lure some dumb mercenary mook away from his post to his doom. Her appearance should have been a tool or a weapon just as much as her biotics.

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

If only BioWare could show an Image of Miri in ME3 already! 

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 06 février 2012 - 12:28 .

[shepard1038]

MASSEFFECTfanforlife101 wrote...

If only BioWare could show an Image of Miri in ME3 already! 

Yeah

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

SERIOUSLY!!!! *BANGS on the table hard* WHAT THE HELL IS SO "SPOILER-ISH" ABOUT A ****ING PICTURE? A P-I-C-T-U-R-E!!!!!

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 06 février 2012 - 12:48 .