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[Sylvianus]

I hope you realize that Miranda knows a LOT about cerberus. She was basically TIM's right hand man (woman?), did you not watch the first cutscene in ME2? Delving deeper into the story it goes to say TIM' barely trusted anyone to see him in person and the fact Miranda was shown with him in the first cutscene in ME2 it means she knows damn wellwhat goes on in Cerberus.

I hope you realize that the shadowbroker know a LOT about cerberus.

And there is no proof she was TIM's right hand. She was just the operation chief instructed by TIM to find the body of shepard, to revive him, then to watch him in the mission against collectors on the normandy, after she betrayed him. There's no evidence she was his right's hand. ( since we need apparently absolute evidences to use our brains ).

The cutscene is not meant to be taken that seriously. I doubt that she is at her side, it's just the striking effect of cinematics.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 17 février 2012 - 01:55 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Sylvianus wrote...

I hope you realize that the shadowbroker know a LOT about cerberus.

And there is no proof she was TIM's right hand. She was just the operation chief instructed by TIM to find the body of shepard, to revive him, then to watch him in the mission against collectors on the normandy, after she betrayed him. There's no evidence she was his right hand. ( since we need apparently absolute evidences to use our brains ).

The cutscene is not meat to be takent hat seriously. I doubt that she is at her side, it's just the striking effect of cinematics.

No one said he didn't. I'm saying Miranda knows as much as he did or more.

And yes, she is (was) TIM's 2IC. It's discussed in ME3.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 17 février 2012 - 01:54 .

[Volandrius]

 

Sylvianus wrote...

I hope you realize that Miranda knows a LOT about cerberus. She was basically TIM's right hand man (woman?), did you not watch the first cutscene in ME2? Delving deeper into the story it goes to say TIM' barely trusted anyone to see him in person and the fact Miranda was shown with him in the first cutscene in ME2 it means she knows damn wellwhat goes on in Cerberus.

I hope you realize that the shadowbroker know a LOT about cerberus. 

And there is no proof she was TIM's right hand. She was just the operation chief instructed by TIM to find the body of shepard, to revive him, then to watch him in the mission against collectors on the normandy, after she betrayed him. There's no evidence she was his right's hand. ( since we need apparently absolute evidences to use our brains ).

The cutscene is not meant to be taken that seriously. I doubt that she is at her side, it's just the striking effect of cinematics.

 

 Lets take a peek at the official Mass Effect Wiki page, shall we?
Take directly from Miranda Lawson's wiki page: " Evidently, Miranda has ADVANCED FAR enough to become one of the FEW in the organization, MUCH LESS THE GALAXY, that meets and answers DIRECTLY to the Illusive Man, who appreciates her abilities."

I'm sorry but if this doesn't get through your thick skull that she is fairly high up in the organiztion and therefore knows a lot about Cerberus' dealings, then you sir, are a blight.

Modifié par Volandrius, 17 février 2012 - 02:00 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Volandrius wrote...

I'm sorry but if this doesn't get through your thick skull that she is fairly high up in the organiztion and therefore knows a lot about Cerberus' dealings, then you sir, are a blight.

@bold- And you, and you, yes, even YOU!

/Mad Prophet

[outmane]

theres no clear statement of Miranda status in Cerberus. But 2 things apply:

1) Her presentation at the beginning of the game does make her look like a well positionned Cerberus asset. She has met TIM in person which is rare. We also know she likes to be in control and well informed (like putting bugs in Mordin's lab or not wanting to open Grunt's box until she is sure what he will do) so her character implies she might have wanted to know things about the organisation she works for.

2) She states that she had no idea what was happening in the Telsin facility and she separates her self from the 'horrors' Cerberus did. She lets Shepard stop the geth experiement in Overlord. She has no idea when TIM hides something from Shepard or sends the team in dangerous sitations and sounds surprise. She doenst seem to know TIM's ultimate goal is to keep the CB.

So arguing either way works. She might know much and be TIM right hand. Or she might know not much that isnt Lazarus related.

[Volandrius]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Volandrius wrote...

I'm sorry but if this doesn't get through your thick skull that she is fairly high up in the organiztion and therefore knows a lot about Cerberus' dealings, then you sir, are a blight.

@bold- And you, and you, yes, even YOU!

/Mad Prophet

+1 for getting the reference.

[AgitatedLemon]

outmane wrote...

theres no clear statement of Miranda status in Cerberus. But 2 things apply:

1) Her presentation at the beginning of the game does make her look like a well positionned Cerberus asset. She has met TIM in person which is rare. We also know she likes to be in control and well informed (like putting bugs in Mordin's lab or not wanting to open Grunt's box until she is sure what he will do) so her character implies she might have wanted to know things about the organisation she works for.

2) She states that she had no idea what was happening in the Telsin facility and she separates her self from the 'horrors' Cerberus did. She lets Shepard stop the geth experiement in Overlord. She has no idea when TIM hides something from Shepard or sends the team in dangerous sitations and sounds surprise. She doenst seem to know TIM's ultimate goal is to keep the CB.

So arguing either way works. She might know much and be TIM right hand. Or she might know not much that isnt Lazarus related.

Overlord and Teltin imply that Miranda know's about a LOT of what Cerberus does, but the darkest and most twisted, she's kept in the dark. I mean, she knows about the Thorian creepers, the husks, and the rachni troops, despite the cells operating those projects being kept separate from one another, so she very clearly knows more than Steve the Cerberus agent.

[jtav]

Well, she refers to herself as TIM's 2IC in the leak, so there's that.

But my argument is mostly narrative. She needs to be involved with Cerberus the way Mordin is the genophage. And she isn't.

[AgitatedLemon]

jtav wrote...

Well, she refers to herself as TIM's 2IC in the leak, so there's that.

But my argument is mostly narrative. She needs to be involved with Cerberus the way Mordin is the genophage. And she isn't.

As far as we know.

That said, Bioware probably forgot all about that.

[Sylvianus]

For wilson

http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Shadow_Broker_Dossiers/Legion

@ agitated Lemon : And the shadowbroker is enough to find Cerberus, that's pretty weak to keep Miranda on the Normandy.

And no, there's no evidence at all for Miranda. What you are talking about, I don't know where they come from and I don't want to know.

[Sylvianus]

Volandrius wrote...

 

Sylvianus wrote...

I hope you realize that Miranda knows a LOT about cerberus. She was basically TIM's right hand man (woman?), did you not watch the first cutscene in ME2? Delving deeper into the story it goes to say TIM' barely trusted anyone to see him in person and the fact Miranda was shown with him in the first cutscene in ME2 it means she knows damn wellwhat goes on in Cerberus.

I hope you realize that the shadowbroker know a LOT about cerberus. 

And there is no proof she was TIM's right hand. She was just the operation chief instructed by TIM to find the body of shepard, to revive him, then to watch him in the mission against collectors on the normandy, after she betrayed him. There's no evidence she was his right's hand. ( since we need apparently absolute evidences to use our brains ).

The cutscene is not meant to be taken that seriously. I doubt that she is at her side, it's just the striking effect of cinematics.

 

 Lets take a peek at the official Mass Effect Wiki page, shall we?
Take directly from Miranda Lawson's wiki page: " Evidently, Miranda has ADVANCED FAR enough to become one of the FEW in the organization, MUCH LESS THE GALAXY, that meets and answers DIRECTLY to the Illusive Man, who appreciates her abilities."

I'm sorry but if this doesn't get through your thick skull that she is fairly high up in the organiztion and therefore knows a lot about Cerberus' dealings, then you sir, are a blight.

Yes she's AMONG A FEW PEOPLE who meets and answers directly to the illusive man, that doesn't give any evidence she would be his right's hand. You need to read correctly. Each operation chief in Cerberus, leader of a cell answers DIRECTLY to TIM. That's obvious.

[AgitatedLemon]

Sylvianus wrote...

For wilson

http://masseffect.wi...Dossiers/Legion

@ agitated Lemon : And the shadowbroker is enough to find Cerberus, that's pretty weak to keep Miranda on the Normandy.

And no, there's no evidence at all for Miranda. What you are talking about, I don't know where they come from and I don't want to know.

Yeah, I read that earlier today. The same dossier that says "With agent Wilson dead, gathering new information will be difficult", or whatever.

And knowingly ignoring dialogue that's in the game? Credibility = gone. When it's explicitly stated in ME3 that Miranda used to be TIM's 2IC... I don't see what the problem is.

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 17 février 2012 - 02:15 .

[Sylvianus]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

For wilson

http://masseffect.wi...Dossiers/Legion

@ agitated Lemon : And the shadowbroker is enough to find Cerberus, that's pretty weak to keep Miranda on the Normandy.

And no, there's no evidence at all for Miranda. What you are talking about, I don't know where they come from and I don't want to know.

Yeah, I read that earlier today. The same dossier that says "With agent Wilson dead, gathering new information will be difficult", or whatever.

And knowingly ignoring dialogue that's in the game? Credibility = gone. When it's explicitly stated in ME3 that Miranda used to be TIM's 2IC... I don't see what the problem is.

 I don't know, you seem to need absolute evidence in the game, I used your logic.  I am not sure how thinking like that is relevant, especially when you keep ignoring yourself all the evidences. The leaked script isn't an evidence. The lines could be totally changed, the script different, etc etc.

So do you have anything else ?

Modifié par Sylvianus, 17 février 2012 - 02:21 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Sylvianus wrote...
 I don't know, you seem to need absolute evidence in the game, I used your logic.  I am not sure how thinking like that is relevant, especially when you keep ignoring yourself all the evidence. The leaked script isn't an evidence.

The leaked script isn't evidence? *literally* everything in the demo footage has been in the leaks. What evidence have I ignored? The only "proof" you've presented is the wiki page, which means little to nothing. for the same reasons I've noted above.

Don't even pull the "But it could change!" card. That leak wasn't long enough ago to warrant re-writing and re-recording and re-animating significant chunks of the game. 

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 17 février 2012 - 02:23 .

[outmane]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

outmane wrote...

theres no clear statement of Miranda status in Cerberus. But 2 things apply:

1) Her presentation at the beginning of the game does make her look like a well positionned Cerberus asset. She has met TIM in person which is rare. We also know she likes to be in control and well informed (like putting bugs in Mordin's lab or not wanting to open Grunt's box until she is sure what he will do) so her character implies she might have wanted to know things about the organisation she works for.

2) She states that she had no idea what was happening in the Telsin facility and she separates her self from the 'horrors' Cerberus did. She lets Shepard stop the geth experiement in Overlord. She has no idea when TIM hides something from Shepard or sends the team in dangerous sitations and sounds surprise. She doenst seem to know TIM's ultimate goal is to keep the CB.

So arguing either way works. She might know much and be TIM right hand. Or she might know not much that isnt Lazarus related.

Overlord and Teltin imply that Miranda know's about a LOT of what Cerberus does, but the darkest and most twisted, she's kept in the dark. I mean, she knows about the Thorian creepers, the husks, and the rachni troops, despite the cells operating those projects being kept separate from one another, so she very clearly knows more than Steve the Cerberus agent.

She knows more then Steve the Cerberus agent but that doesnt mean she knows much of the overall TIM plan. (I mean that Cerberus grunts really know nothing at all, as most convos with them seems to imply)

On a narrative plan it makes some sense she doesnt know whats going on in TIM head or she might have acted differently in ME2. But then it cuts short on her potential role in ME3 which is bad because it takes her from 'Efficient Operative' to 'Protective motherbear' a bit too much in my tastes.

[AgitatedLemon]

outmane wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

outmane wrote...

theres no clear statement of Miranda status in Cerberus. But 2 things apply:

1) Her presentation at the beginning of the game does make her look like a well positionned Cerberus asset. She has met TIM in person which is rare. We also know she likes to be in control and well informed (like putting bugs in Mordin's lab or not wanting to open Grunt's box until she is sure what he will do) so her character implies she might have wanted to know things about the organisation she works for.

2) She states that she had no idea what was happening in the Telsin facility and she separates her self from the 'horrors' Cerberus did. She lets Shepard stop the geth experiement in Overlord. She has no idea when TIM hides something from Shepard or sends the team in dangerous sitations and sounds surprise. She doenst seem to know TIM's ultimate goal is to keep the CB.

So arguing either way works. She might know much and be TIM right hand. Or she might know not much that isnt Lazarus related.

Overlord and Teltin imply that Miranda know's about a LOT of what Cerberus does, but the darkest and most twisted, she's kept in the dark. I mean, she knows about the Thorian creepers, the husks, and the rachni troops, despite the cells operating those projects being kept separate from one another, so she very clearly knows more than Steve the Cerberus agent.

She knows more then Steve the Cerberus agent but that doesnt mean she knows much of the overall TIM plan. (I mean that Cerberus grunts really know nothing at all, as most convos with them seems to imply)

On a narrative plan it makes some sense she doesnt know whats going on in TIM head or she might have acted differently in ME2. But then it cuts short on her potential role in ME3 which is bad because it takes her from 'Efficient Operative' to 'Protective motherbear' a bit too much in my tastes.

That's exactly what I said, just worded differently.

She knows more than everyone else, but the *most* private dealings are kept to TIM himself.

[Sylvianus]

So, That means it will be necessarily the same for Miranda ? that's just speculation, not an evidence.
The truth is you don't know if it will be the same, that's it. The fact is you haven't anything. So yeah I use this card agitated lemon.

Now, wilson was just a traitor and that's it ? With all the indications you are unable to think more than that ? lol. yeah, wilson was just a traitor unknown, that's interesting. I stop here.

And your reason about Miranda on the normandy means pretty much nothing.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 17 février 2012 - 02:34 .

[android654]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

outmane wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

outmane wrote...

theres no clear statement of Miranda status in Cerberus. But 2 things apply:

1) Her presentation at the beginning of the game does make her look like a well positionned Cerberus asset. She has met TIM in person which is rare. We also know she likes to be in control and well informed (like putting bugs in Mordin's lab or not wanting to open Grunt's box until she is sure what he will do) so her character implies she might have wanted to know things about the organisation she works for.

2) She states that she had no idea what was happening in the Telsin facility and she separates her self from the 'horrors' Cerberus did. She lets Shepard stop the geth experiement in Overlord. She has no idea when TIM hides something from Shepard or sends the team in dangerous sitations and sounds surprise. She doenst seem to know TIM's ultimate goal is to keep the CB.

So arguing either way works. She might know much and be TIM right hand. Or she might know not much that isnt Lazarus related.

Overlord and Teltin imply that Miranda know's about a LOT of what Cerberus does, but the darkest and most twisted, she's kept in the dark. I mean, she knows about the Thorian creepers, the husks, and the rachni troops, despite the cells operating those projects being kept separate from one another, so she very clearly knows more than Steve the Cerberus agent.

She knows more then Steve the Cerberus agent but that doesnt mean she knows much of the overall TIM plan. (I mean that Cerberus grunts really know nothing at all, as most convos with them seems to imply)

On a narrative plan it makes some sense she doesnt know whats going on in TIM head or she might have acted differently in ME2. But then it cuts short on her potential role in ME3 which is bad because it takes her from 'Efficient Operative' to 'Protective motherbear' a bit too much in my tastes.

That's exactly what I said, just worded differently.

She knows more than everyone else, but the *most* private dealings are kept to TIM himself.

If there's one thing I've learned from reading about the KGB, CIA and MI6 all these years is that nothing can be kept secret for very long. There's nothing to suggest that Miranda couldn't figure out everything TIM did behind her back, and given her nature, there's nothing to stop her from knowing what he'll do before he does.

[AgitatedLemon]

Sylvianus wrote...

So, That means it will be necessarily the same for Miranda ? that's just speculation, not an evidence.
The truth is you don't know if it will be the same, that's it. The fact is you haven't anything.

Now, wilson was just a traitor and that's it ? With all the indications you are unable to think more than that ? lol. yeah, wilson was just a traitor unknown, that's interesting. I stop here.

A couple of things.

1. What part of "It's not going to change. The only differences are the things that weren't leaked" don't you understand? They aren't going to rewrite, reanimate, and rerecord just for you.

2. Wilson was a traitor and... That's it. He was a traitor. I'm ignoring the "facts" you present because they aren't facts. The only other knowledge we have of Wilson are Legion's dossier, which explains why Wilson did what he did, and the other dossier (Forget which one it was) which implied Wilson was the only spy. You aren't even making a point by arguing this.

My reasoning for Miranda being on the Normandy are perfectly sound, but since they contain ME3 spoilers, you're just going to ignore them and say "Well you don't know...!"

Modifié par AgitatedLemon, 17 février 2012 - 02:38 .

[AgitatedLemon]

android654 wrote...

If there's one thing I've learned from reading about the KGB, CIA and MI6 all these years is that nothing can be kept secret for very long. There's nothing to suggest that Miranda couldn't figure out everything TIM did behind her back, and given her nature, there's nothing to stop her from knowing what he'll do before he does.

Of course.

That said, she never really had a reason prior to ME3 to not trust him. As far as she knows, he was the man who saved her life and offered protection to her sister. She had no reason to believe he was advocating the torture of biotic kids and feeding Marines to Thresher Maws.

[Sylvianus]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

Sylvianus wrote...

So, That means it will be necessarily the same for Miranda ? that's just speculation, not an evidence.
The truth is you don't know if it will be the same, that's it. The fact is you haven't anything.

Now, wilson was just a traitor and that's it ? With all the indications you are unable to think more than that ? lol. yeah, wilson was just a traitor unknown, that's interesting. I stop here.

A couple of things.

2. Wilson was a traitor and... That's it. He was a traitor. I'm ignoring the "facts" you present because they aren't facts. The only other knowledge we have of Wilson are Legion's dossier, which explains why Wilson did what he did, and the other dossier (Forget which one it was) which implied Wilson was the only spy. You aren't even making a point by arguing this.

(Note: We are still unable to directly tap geth communications. Cerberus decryption programs look promising, but Wilson´s death will make integrating new agents onto Minuteman difficult.)

Who is the ' we ' according to you ? You are reading shadowbroker's dossiers, remember.

[android654]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

android654 wrote...

If there's one thing I've learned from reading about the KGB, CIA and MI6 all these years is that nothing can be kept secret for very long. There's nothing to suggest that Miranda couldn't figure out everything TIM did behind her back, and given her nature, there's nothing to stop her from knowing what he'll do before he does.

Of course.

That said, she never really had a reason prior to ME3 to not trust him. As far as she knows, he was the man who saved her life and offered protection to her sister. She had no reason to believe he was advocating the torture of biotic kids and feeding Marines to Thresher Maws.

Any smart spy or saboteur, which is what Miranda seemed to do in the field, knows they can't trust anyone. Then again, only few people can truly be alone their whole lives. I suppose if she had to trust someone, then the head of the galaxy's best spy organization seems like a good bet.

[Sylvianus]

AgitatedLemon wrote...

2. Wilson was a traitor and... That's it. He was a traitor. I'm ignoring the "facts" you present because they aren't facts. The only other knowledge we have of Wilson are Legion's dossier, which explains why Wilson did what he did, and the other dossier (Forget which one it was) which implied Wilson was the only spy. You aren't even making a point by arguing this.

(Note: We are still unable to directly tap geth communications. Cerberus decryption programs look promising, but Wilson´s death will make integrating new agents onto Minuteman difficult.)

Who is the ' we ' according to you ? You are reading shadowbroker's dossiers, remember.

Modifié par Sylvianus, 17 février 2012 - 02:45 .

[AgitatedLemon]

Sylvianus wrote...

AgitatedLemon wrote...

2. Wilson was a traitor and... That's it. He was a traitor. I'm ignoring the "facts" you present because they aren't facts. The only other knowledge we have of Wilson are Legion's dossier, which explains why Wilson did what he did, and the other dossier (Forget which one it was) which implied Wilson was the only spy. You aren't even making a point by arguing this.

(Note: We are still unable to directly tap geth communications. Cerberus decryption programs look promising, but Wilson´s death will make integrating new agents onto Minuteman difficult.)

Who is the ' we ' according to you ? You are reading shadowbroker's dossiers, remember.

"We" being the players.

I still don't see what you're saying. That snip from the dossier is just proving my point. "Wilson's death will make integrating new agents onto Minuteman difficult".

Implies the Broker didn't have any other agents and that putting in new ones is going to be a pain, because now they know to be suspicious of the new recruits.

[Avy DiSartori]

jtav wrote...

Well, she refers to herself as TIM's 2IC in the leak, so there's that.

But my argument is mostly narrative. She needs to be involved with Cerberus the way Mordin is the genophage. And she isn't.

.                                                                                                                                                                     The "investigate" options of dialogue weren't in the leaked script, were They? (since investigate never actually triggers new dialogue options). I'm saying this, because probably any information about cerberus might be in the investigate dialogue choices when talking to Miranda..       Edit: sorry for the spaces in the post.. I'm writing from my mobile 

Modifié par Avy DiSartori, 17 février 2012 - 03:01 .