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[Jebel Krong]

Yannkee wrote...

Datas_12 wrote...

So who thinks Miri will be on the Normandy in the beginning fo ME3? I'm not sure she will be...

I don't think she will be, I think she will be busy elsewhere.

But I hope we will be able to have her back as soon as possible.

i do hope they come up with a better explanation than "everyone left because, just as the reapers were arriving shepard thought it would be a good time to sideline himself by going back to earth to stand trial, forcing everyone he had meticulously recruited to leave..."

or, as i like to put it: "mac walters had one of his 'cool' ideas that ME3 should start with a trial, how can we force this into the story, even though it doesn't make sense."

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 15 juin 2011 - 08:47 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
How does it not belong here? She does discuss Miranda fairly extensively. Are the criticisms of her and her loyalty mission valid? Why or why not? I think she's overly strident, but I think there's some valid points buried within. Some of the camera angles are ridiculous to the point where you could almost hear the developers snickering. And consider the fight we just had over her resignation. A lot of the confusion that some of us feel could be cleared up if she had an additional mission that forced her to come to grips with the fact that Cerberus did horrible things.

Actually, she did come to grips with it. As late as the second romance conversation (the one with the kiss), you get this if you choose "Cerberus is wrong".

Shepard: I trust you, but I don't trust Cerberus. Your experiments cross the line.

Miranda: All the time, yes. But I recall a Spectre who crossed a few lines while hunting down Saren and the geth.
Miranda: And we'd be lucky to have you. Too many join us out of simple
xenophobia. We need more people here for the right reasons.

So she knows that lines were crossed, and she thinks it's justified. Except for Jack's treatment which she says was a mistake. She doesn't appear to be troubled by it. That would fit my definition of "having come to grips with it". Given that this comes up after the loyalty mission and that you can get this conversation as late as after Reaper IFF, I'd say she still justifies those Cerberus activities at the end of the game, and there isn't any character development for her after this point. She now trusts Shepard - that's the big change - but she's still with Cerberus in her mind.

That is why I feel justified in saying that her resignation was not the result of long-term character development, but a snapshot decision made in the face of the unexpected conflict between TIM and Shepard about the base. Though possibly Miranda thinks that TIM has crossed one line too many with the base, she still believes in Cerberus' agenda and feels their methods are generally justified. As I said elsewhere it doesn't mean that she doesn't care about the "collateral damage". It only means she overrides that feeling for the sake of the outcome. 

I would also like to remind everyone that her resignation is not canonical, but one of two possible ways things could be going. Disenchantment with Cerberus can't be a core trait of Miranda unless we get new reasons for such a development in ME3. Apparently we will get those new reasons, since I can't imagine that Miranda would join Cerberus' hunt for Shepard, but I imagine her belief in advancing humanity, even be it at the cost of a few (!) lives, will remain the same as ever. She'll only think Cerberus has crossed one line too many or doesn't represent the cause she joined it for it any more.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 juin 2011 - 09:26 .

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...
i do hope they come up with a better explanation than "everyone left because, just as the reapers were arriving shepard thought it would be a good time to sideline himself by going back to earth to stand trial, forcing everyone he had meticulously recruited to leave..."

or, as i like to put it: "mac walters had one of his 'cool' ideas that ME3 should start with a trial, how can we force this into the story, even though it doesn't make sense."

Miranda does have a good reason to leave: She's Cerberus, at the very least she's a highly-ranked Ex-Cerberus operative. The Alliance would love to get their hands on her. Of course she'll leave. I only find it surprising she'd let Shepard give the SR2 to the Alliance.

[Blackguard82]

Full time squadmate! Nothing less. Kicking ass with Miranda at your side never gets old.

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
i do hope they come up with a better explanation than "everyone left because, just as the reapers were arriving shepard thought it would be a good time to sideline himself by going back to earth to stand trial, forcing everyone he had meticulously recruited to leave..."

or, as i like to put it: "mac walters had one of his 'cool' ideas that ME3 should start with a trial, how can we force this into the story, even though it doesn't make sense."

Miranda does have a good reason to leave: She's Cerberus, at the very least she's a highly-ranked Ex-Cerberus operative. The Alliance would love to get their hands on her. Of course she'll leave. I only find it surprising she'd let Shepard give the SR2 to the Alliance.

We don't know if Shep does. Could easily be just explained that they go to dock somewhere and it gets locked down just like it did in ME.

One thing to obviously point out is that during the Earth Gameplay footage, it is clear to see that the SR2 has gone through a respray. I doubt they'd be able to do that within timeframe of the trial if that is right at the start.

As for Miranda whereabouts, I see 2 possibilities (actually I do see a third but am not wanting to speculate on that), either arrested and then conveniently freed/taken by some Cerberus Ops (that'll fit either ending of ME2) or after SR2 grounded she gets away to report in to TIM (if base kept) or gets away to go try ensure Oriana is moved again so TIM can't use her as a means to control Miranda.

[GuitarShredUK]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
i do hope they come up with a better explanation than "everyone left because, just as the reapers were arriving shepard thought it would be a good time to sideline himself by going back to earth to stand trial, forcing everyone he had meticulously recruited to leave..."

or, as i like to put it: "mac walters had one of his 'cool' ideas that ME3 should start with a trial, how can we force this into the story, even though it doesn't make sense."

Miranda does have a good reason to leave: She's Cerberus, at the very least she's a highly-ranked Ex-Cerberus operative. The Alliance would love to get their hands on her. Of course she'll leave. I only find it surprising she'd let Shepard give the SR2 to the Alliance.

@Jebel: I'm sure Casey made a point during one of his interviews at E3 that ME3 is set "six months to a year" after the events of ME2 and Arrival - so there is a lot of leeway there for certain members to move on. Plus, I doubt the whole of the team from ME2 would want to stay, as several of the more...individual characters have outside commitments so their own reasons to move on e.g. Grunt, Samara, Zaeed and possibly Jack. 

@Ieldra: in terms of Shepard's trial, for some reason I had visions of the Alliance also pursuing Miranda for questioning, rather than a trial due to her depth of knowledge, and wasn't it you who mentioned in the main Miri support thread that a possible progression for Miranda would be that she is also captured, but held on board the Normandy?

Plus, I think Miranda would see the bigger picture and have to accept that the SR2 is now Alliance property, as getting involved may be a bigger mistake on her part - due to who she is and who she is/has worked for. 

[wright1978]

My feeling is that my Shephard wouldn't hand his entire crew over to be interrogated and imprisoned by the Alliance. So i'm interested to how the trial comes about in ME3. Is the deal that Shepherd comes in and his crew is pardoned or are the Alliance going to ambush and capture the Normandy? Either way I think the trial isn't necessarily a reason for Miranda being absent. Possibly securing Oriana's safety could be a justifiable reason.

[GuitarShredUK]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

We don't know if Shep does. Could easily be just explained that they go to dock somewhere and it gets locked down just like it did in ME.

One thing to obviously point out is that during the Earth Gameplay footage, it is clear to see that the SR2 has gone through a respray. I doubt they'd be able to do that within timeframe of the trial if that is right at the start.

As for Miranda whereabouts, I see 2 possibilities (actually I do see a third but am not wanting to speculate on that), either arrested and then conveniently freed/taken by some Cerberus Ops (that'll fit either ending of ME2) or after SR2 grounded she gets away to report in to TIM (if base kept) or gets away to go try ensure Oriana is moved again so TIM can't use her as a means to control Miranda.

Interesting - I could see a chain of events happening whereby Shepard is preparing to stand trial, Cerberus attacks the jail/courts etc as they also want to get to him/her (could be Cerberus' intro into the game, and on Earth), and almost get to Miranda in the process but she manages to evade them and slip away. Then we have the big introduction of the Reapers, Shepard meets up with Anderson and has to fight his way out a la E3 gameplay. 

Modifié par GuitarShredUK, 15 juin 2011 - 09:45 .

[Ieldra]

@Ieldra: in terms of Shepard's trial, for some reason I had visions of the Alliance also pursuing Miranda for questioning, rather than a trial due to her depth of knowledge, and wasn't it you who mentioned in the main Miri support thread that a possible progression for Miranda would be that she is also captured, but held on board the Normandy?

No, that wasn't me. I would dislike such a development greatly since it would deprive her of the opportunity to be doing important things during her absence. And yes, that's what I meant when I said they'd like to get their hands on Miranda. The "questioning" wouldn't be all that friendly. 

Plus, I think Miranda would see the bigger picture and have to accept that the SR2 is now Alliance property, as getting involved may be a bigger mistake on her part - due to who she is and who she is/has worked for.

Oh, I have no doubt Miranda sees the bigger picture. But the bigger picture may look like this to her if she didn't resign: The Alliance, who isn't all that convinced of the Reapers' existence, would claim the SR2 and deprive Cerberus of resources much needed for the fight against the Reapers. The SR2 is wasted on the Alliance and better put to use elsewhere. Of course once the Reapers have come it doesn't matter anymore, but we're talking about the time between Arrival and the trial. If she's still with Cerberus at the end of ME2, she certainly won't like it that Shepard brings the SR2 to the Alliance at that time, that's for sure.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 15 juin 2011 - 09:50 .

[Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien]

Editted
With regards why the secrecy surrounding Miranda and Jacob, I imagine it is obviously due to the whole 'Cerberus mystery' I'll also place bets on them being 'optional' squadmates at most. My slight annoyance with that is that most of the squad really should be treated as such. Not purely from a Miranda PoV but the fact that some people have it that their Sheps might not like the particular squadmates.

Modifié par Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien, 15 juin 2011 - 09:57 .

[GuitarShredUK]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
That is why I listed 'taken' next to the word 'freed' that way it covers both options regarding the base. I doubt we'll see Cerberus troops on that opening Earth part.

Noted - I did go back and edit my post once I saw that 

Modifié par GuitarShredUK, 15 juin 2011 - 09:57 .

[Sigyn2011]

wright1978 wrote...

My feeling is that my Shephard wouldn't hand his entire crew over to be interrogated and imprisoned by the Alliance. So i'm interested to how the trial comes about in ME3. Is the deal that Shepherd comes in and his crew is pardoned or are the Alliance going to ambush and capture the Normandy? Either way I think the trial isn't necessarily a reason for Miranda being absent. Possibly securing Oriana's safety could be a justifiable reason.

I have to agree--unless the Alliance tries to take the Normandy by force.  If this were a paragon/renegade decision, i.e. an incoming message from Alliance command saying 'hand over your ship or else."  Shepard makes the paragon decision to obey or renegade/neutral to run, forcing the Alliance to shoot and capture the Normandy by force.  Either way, this will surely bring Shepard to trial.  Will Miranda be aboard?  That's anyone's guess--most of us are wishing for it, but I'm going to say no because of how Casey Hudson was talking.  Also, I agree she will likely be working on moving Oriana again (especially if she quit Cerberus).

[Jebel Krong]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...

Editted
With regards why the secrecy surrounding Miranda and Jacob, I imagine it is obviously due to the whole 'Cerberus mystery' I'll also place bets on them being 'optional' squadmates at most. My slight annoyance with that is that most of the squad really should be treated as such. Not purely from a Miranda PoV but the fact that some people have it that their Sheps might not like the particular squadmates.

most probably will be, as most could be dead, and the game will have to account for that and any number of combinations therein. BW have also said that 'permanency' doesn't mean the same thing as before. i think it'll work out more along the lines of legion/tali will pop up whenever it involves geth/quarians etc. but not necessarily anywhere else, and so on for the others.

[Jebel Krong]

GuitarShredUK wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
i do hope they come up with a better explanation than "everyone left because, just as the reapers were arriving shepard thought it would be a good time to sideline himself by going back to earth to stand trial, forcing everyone he had meticulously recruited to leave..."

or, as i like to put it: "mac walters had one of his 'cool' ideas that ME3 should start with a trial, how can we force this into the story, even though it doesn't make sense."

Miranda does have a good reason to leave: She's Cerberus, at the very least she's a highly-ranked Ex-Cerberus operative. The Alliance would love to get their hands on her. Of course she'll leave. I only find it surprising she'd let Shepard give the SR2 to the Alliance.

@Jebel: I'm sure Casey made a point during one of his interviews at E3 that ME3 is set "six months to a year" after the events of ME2 and Arrival - so there is a lot of leeway there for certain members to move on. Plus, I doubt the whole of the team from ME2 would want to stay, as several of the more...individual characters have outside commitments so their own reasons to move on e.g. Grunt, Samara, Zaeed and possibly Jack. 

@Ieldra: in terms of Shepard's trial, for some reason I had visions of the Alliance also pursuing Miranda for questioning, rather than a trial due to her depth of knowledge, and wasn't it you who mentioned in the main Miri support thread that a possible progression for Miranda would be that she is also captured, but held on board the Normandy?

Plus, I think Miranda would see the bigger picture and have to accept that the SR2 is now Alliance property, as getting involved may be a bigger mistake on her part - due to who she is and who she is/has worked for. 

why would they hold her on the normandy and not earth-bound? the potential for escape/damage alone isn't worth the risk.

whilst i agree that certain squad-members would have reasons to move on (samara, non-romanced characters), the whole point of ME2 was to build a team, so the bonds you should have to carry you through should mean that whilst you would inevitably lose some, more would stay, besides ME2 also made it perfectly clear that the fight was just beginning, not ending.

edit: @ Ieldra, i would find it illogical that a. shep would go back anyway and certainly b. he'd let the normandy anywhere near the alliance after not only ME1's events but those in ME2/DLC as well. miranda letting or not letting isn't a factor as she was XO, not "captain" - Shepard would make the decisions, hopefully you would expect them to be smarter ones by now knowing what he faces. As an LI, i would expect her to stay (close at the very least) all the way through, even though that certainly wouldn't involve surrendering to the alliance.

Modifié par Jebel Krong, 15 juin 2011 - 10:31 .

[Ieldra]

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
I'll also place bets on them being 'optional' squadmates at most. My slight annoyance with that is that most of the squad really should be treated as such. Not purely from a Miranda PoV but the fact that some people have it that their Sheps might not like the particular squadmates.

I agree. My annoyance with a setup where some team members are permanent and my favorites are not would be rather more than slight. I might be placated by a really impressive story arc, though.
 

[goofyomnivore]

I don't think Miranda could do anything for Shepard's trial. She would probably be indicted right beside him/her. I don't blame her for keeping her distance romance or not. Here is a random guess on her where abouts. Just thinking aloud I guess.

(A)Resigned/Destroyed the base: Securing Oriana's safety.
(B)Kept the Base: Analyzing the data from the base. Defects with valuable technology/data once she realizes Cerberus is going completly evil through indoctrination or whatever.

You could then tie them together with a conflict such as;
(A) Miranda couldn't keep Oriana safe without Cerberus cover ups -- someone leaks Oriana's where abouts to Mr. Lawson. Cerberus captures her.
( Cerberus captures/gives Oriana to Mr. Lawson once they realize she defects. Demands their data back in exchange for her.

As for something a few pages old..

Ieldra2 wrote...

That's one I actually like quite a bit. Sure you could say it's a bit out of place in the mission, with this relaxed and pensive mood in the middle of a high-tension mission, but I like thecontrast. As for being "gratuitous sex appeal driven shot", I don't feel this is one. The one in her loyalty mission and the one in the second conversation on the Normandy, that's what most of us here are talking about.

It isn't as bad as the two you mentioned. I used that one as an example because it just isn't Miranda, but it just felt  akward to me for every squadmember. It is pretty hilarious with Legion or Grunt however. Cus you could see the scene  wasn't designed for their "curves". The third party member is just hanging out on a guard rail with their ass hanging out. I get that they're relaxing, chilling, or whatever while Shepard and  Zaeed talk some things over, but it just seemed like BioWare wanted to show off the character's curves rather than anything else. It also looks much worse in her white armor as well, but that is more of that armors fault than the camera. The Zaeed mission camera shot however is a thousand times better than the ones you mentioned and this one.

Modifié par strive, 15 juin 2011 - 12:34 .

[Ieldra]

Jebel Krong wrote...
I would find it illogical that a. shep would go back anyway and certainly b. he'd let the normandy anywhere near the alliance after not only ME1's events but those in ME2/DLC as well.

Yeah, that they force that start on us is annoying. I guess a starting point depending on Shepard's affiliation would have been too much to ask. The rationalization to go back is more or less acceptable for most Shepards I guess, but to gift the SR2 to the Alliance? My primary Shepard would not do such a thing.

miranda letting or not letting isn't a factor as she was XO, not "captain" - Shepard would make the decisions, hopefully you would expect them to be smarter ones by now knowing what he faces.

Cerberus gave Shepard the SR2, technically he is only captain at their sufferance, and Miranda is the highest-ranking Cerberus representative. Her promise to follow his orders ends with the Collector base mission. If I were Miranda, I'd have installed backdoor access to the ship's critical systems so that I could take control if Shepard goes AWOL with the SR2. Not that she'd use such a thing lightly, especially if she trusts Shepard as a rule, but giving the SR2 to the Alliance might just be that line she wouldn't let him cross.

[The Uncanny]

Ieldra2 wrote...
I think we will get that important mission with her. Apart from that, there is no information, but it would be a shame to reduce her presence to one mission. And I would find it highly annoying if other team members get a permanent presence but Miranda does not.

It could well be a deal breaker for me.

The characters and our interaction with them are, at least for me, the strongest aspect of the ME franchise. Not the shooting. The shooting is fine, don't get me wrong. But when DLC packages come out entirely focused on this aspect, the absence of character interaction and decision making is keenly felt.

That being the case, who the game focuses on will be significant. If my favourite characters get shoved into the background whilst characters I have less empathy with are trudging around after me, chattering incessantly, then my experience will be a significantly poorer, less enjoyable one.

I'm not saying I'd not play ME3 at all... but it will certainly help me choose if I really want to invest in the CE or wait for a cheap, second hand copy of the standard...

Modifié par The Uncanny, 15 juin 2011 - 12:46 .

[MsSihaKatieKrios]

If BW dares to make Miranda a background character and shove tali (yuck) and Garrus in my face, I'm not gonna give them my money. I'm just gonna play a free copy

[goofyomnivore]

I would hate for Miranda to get the Liara treatment. As good as LotSB was, the reason it was acceptable was because there is a third game coming. If you had bundled a conclusion to a character/romance in a 7$ DLC/one mission. I would think that would not make anyone happy.

I'm thinking best case we get her Garrus/Mordin early, and worst case she could be like Legion and tied to a plot device late in the game. However if she got the Legion treatment and finished in a blaze of glory with an excellent character arc/depth I wouldn't mind, but I would like for her to get that and be a more permanent squad member.

Modifié par strive, 15 juin 2011 - 12:54 .

[Vertigo_1]

The trial to me is like the death of Shepard in ME2. It's a chance to start from the beginning (setting stats and whatnot) and bringing the player back up to speed on events from previous games.

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
I would find it illogical that a. shep would go back anyway and certainly b. he'd let the normandy anywhere near the alliance after not only ME1's events but those in ME2/DLC as well.

Yeah, that they force that start on us is annoying. I guess a starting point depending on Shepard's affiliation would have been too much to ask. The rationalization to go back is more or less acceptable for most Shepards I guess, but to gift the SR2 to the Alliance? My primary Shepard would not do such a thing.

miranda letting or not letting isn't a factor as she was XO, not "captain" - Shepard would make the decisions, hopefully you would expect them to be smarter ones by now knowing what he faces.

Cerberus gave Shepard the SR2, technically he is only captain at their sufferance, and Miranda is the highest-ranking Cerberus representative. Her promise to follow his orders ends with the Collector base mission. If I were Miranda, I'd have installed backdoor access to the ship's critical systems so that I could take control if Shepard goes AWOL with the SR2. Not that she'd use such a thing lightly, especially if she trusts Shepard as a rule, but giving the SR2 to the Alliance might just be that line she wouldn't let him cross.

let alone if you are still a spectre and the alliance has no authority over you 9and it's not like the council would order you to a trial, if anything they'd do it themselves).

you quit cerberus at the end of me2, remember? one way or another you end association, so that doesn't really fly. also wouldn't matter what backdoors anyone had - EDI is in charge now, and i don't think she'd let anyone mutiny (in fact i'm surprised she would agree to surrender to the alliance knowing what they wouldprobably do to an unshackled AI).

[Jebel Krong]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Sir Ulrich Von Lichenstien wrote...
I'll also place bets on them being 'optional' squadmates at most. My slight annoyance with that is that most of the squad really should be treated as such. Not purely from a Miranda PoV but the fact that some people have it that their Sheps might not like the particular squadmates.

I agree. My annoyance with a setup where some team members are permanent and my favorites are not would be rather more than slight. I might be placated by a really impressive story arc, though.
 

this. i will forgive somewhat if the story and game is as good as expected but i will take great pleasure in finding new and exciting ways to try and kill the forced-upon permies.

[Raizo]

strive wrote...

I would hate for Miranda to get the Liara treatment. As good as LotSB was, the reason it was acceptable was because there is a third game coming. If you had bundled a conclusion to a character/romance in a 7$ DLC/one mission. I would think that would not make anyone happy.

Good point. Deep down we all knew that we would be seeing alot more of Liara in ME3 so LOtSB worked because it just about enough to keep Liara fans going until the next game in the series. Seeing as how ME3 is the last ME game to follow Shepard's story and we will probably never see any of these characters ever again I think we are all hoping that we get to spend alot of time with the squad mates that we like especially our LI's.

[Rawke]

Ieldra2 wrote...

jtav wrote...
How does it not belong here? She does discuss Miranda fairly extensively. Are the criticisms of her and her loyalty mission valid? Why or why not? I think she's overly strident, but I think there's some valid points buried within. Some of the camera angles are ridiculous to the point where you could almost hear the developers snickering. And consider the fight we just had over her resignation. A lot of the confusion that some of us feel could be cleared up if she had an additional mission that forced her to come to grips with the fact that Cerberus did horrible things.

Actually, she did come to grips with it. As late as the second romance conversation (the one with the kiss), you get this if you choose "Cerberus is wrong".

Shepard: I trust you, but I don't trust Cerberus. Your experiments cross the line.

Miranda: All the time, yes. But I recall a Spectre who crossed a few lines while hunting down Saren and the geth.
Miranda: And we'd be lucky to have you. Too many join us out of simple
xenophobia. We need more people here for the right reasons.

So she knows that lines were crossed, and she thinks it's justified. Except for Jack's treatment which she says was a mistake. She doesn't appear to be troubled by it. That would fit my definition of "having come to grips with it". Given that this comes up after the loyalty mission and that you can get this conversation as late as after Reaper IFF, I'd say she still justifies those Cerberus activities at the end of the game, and there isn't any character development for her after this point. She now trusts Shepard - that's the big change - but she's still with Cerberus in her mind.

That is why I feel justified in saying that her resignation was not the result of long-term character development, but a snapshot decision made in the face of the unexpected conflict between TIM and Shepard about the base. Though possibly Miranda thinks that TIM has crossed one line too many with the base, she still believes in Cerberus' agenda and feels their methods are generally justified. As I said elsewhere it doesn't mean that she doesn't care about the "collateral damage". It only means she overrides that feeling for the sake of the outcome. 

I would also like to remind everyone that her resignation is not canonical, but one of two possible ways things could be going. Disenchantment with Cerberus can't be a core trait of Miranda unless we get new reasons for such a development in ME3. Apparently we will get those new reasons, since I can't imagine that Miranda would join Cerberus' hunt for Shepard, but I imagine her belief in advancing humanity, even be it at the cost of a few (!) lives, will remain the same as ever. She'll only think Cerberus has crossed one line too many or doesn't represent the cause she joined it for it any more.

I don't think we should all get hung up on that resignation thing. I don't think it's a snapshot decision, but whether you think so or not - it doesn't mean her opinion has changed. You don't have to be a member of some organisation to have an opinion. Just because she quit Cerberus doesn't mean her opinion changed. She never was as extreme as TIM when it came to humanity's role in the galaxy (from what we know, she wasn't focused on humanity being the kewlest race in the galaxy but to secure humanity's advancement in general; not necessarily by actively hostile actions against other races) and I doubt she needs a whole organisation and TIM backing her to voice her opinion. Whether she quits or not has no influence on her opinion on Cerberus' cause. Just like many Catholics still believe, but disagree with the Catholic church as an organisation. Whether you like the pope or not doesn't change your stance on religion. Just because people leave, say, a liberal party doesn't necessarily mean they aren't liberals anymore.