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[Ieldra]

Varus Praetor wrote...
A lot of theories being thrown around regarding Cerberus' structure in ME3 and what kind of agenda various characters will have. All very interesting. My main problem is that I can't see any plot device for BW to use for turning Cerberus into a Reaper ally that doesn't reek of cheesy writing (i.e. indoctrination).

The problem I'm having is that any plot twist not involving indoctrination appears like utter stupidity. Unless Cerberus really has something ultra-powerful in development that could ensure victory against the Reapers given time, any deal will have absolutely no long-term benefit. 

Having said that, I semi-agree that the Reapers are too big to hate. It's not so much that they're too big to hate (although they're more of a "force" than a group of individuals), but that they're too inhuman to hate. That's why I think each game has a proxy for the Reapers that is able to cause pain and serve as a more understandable outlet for our anger. In ME1 it was Saren, ME2 had the Collectors (although that wasn't as well done), and ME3 is apparently going to have Cerberus (very poor choice IMO, but I'm just a consumer).

What I don't get is this: why do people *want* to be angry at someone, and why the hell does Bioware want people to act out of anger? That's just stupid. The will to survive and the determination that engenders should be enough to motivate people. That the Reapers are inhuman and their actions are understandable by their own standards doesn't change anything. Why must every story have a villain you can hate? 

Since the actual invasion is taking place it will be interesting to see whether BW tries to direct the anger directly at the Reapers or continues to use a proxy. If they decide to use the proxy, I think it's important that the player feel an emotional investment in their destruction. Similar to how the Collectors actually killed Shepard in ME2. That's a hell of a motive for wanting their destruction.

I can only say, I will feel very satisfied when I have prevented the Reapers from destroying all sapient organic life in the galaxy. No matter that I don't hate them. Emotional investment comes in many forms. Hate's the cheapest of all.

Edit:
Oops....just noticed this is seriously OT. Sorry. I'll think of starting a new thread about this.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 11 juillet 2011 - 08:32 .

[Jebel Krong]

Arijharn wrote...

Ieldra have you heard my theory before? I've posted it elsewhere about the place but I'm not sure if you or others here have read it.

Basically; the crux is this: Cerberus is working for the Reapers, but there is some 'power play' in regards to it. Cerberus strikes a 'bargain' with the Reapers (taking advantage of their vanity) by also taking advantage of Cerberus' own notoriety. The bargain is this; they will do 'everything' they can to capture/kill Shephard and his group of elite veterans if the Reapers slow their 'consumption' of Earth.

The reason they (Cerberus) could probably get away with this is largely simple; they take advantage of the laws of conservation of energy basically as well as even portray themselves as willing to perform tasks that make them seem like Saren and as eager dogsbodies.

Meanwhile; Cerberus makes a good showing of keeping faith with the the Reapers (by sending kill teams) but meanwhile they continue to send intelligence to Shephard in order for our hero to be 'forewarned' about these sort of attempts. The cold reasoning is that while the operatives deaths are unfortunate, it's infinitely preferable to the Reapers finishing up on Earth and possibly worse; separating into different fleets to attack major locations at once. By keeping them on Earth, Cerberus' true objective is to buy time for Shephard to rally the various races and secure the necessary technology to effectively combat the Reapers.

Then; when Shephard has his forces sufficiently prepared, Cerberus abruptly 'changes' allegiance and sends as much information about the Reapers to all races involved (reasoning their guns are useful too, and they may as well be effective guns) but may have slight differences depending on your choices in the games. Cerberus' military teams actively assist groups like Alliance marines etc and while may not be wholly under their chain of command, are still going to follow common sense etc.

i like the idea, i just don't really see logically the reapers going for it - after all once you have destroyed the seat of humanity their view has always been that even shep doesn't matter/can't stop them - their hubris may be their eventual undoing but it has always been there, even in "arrival".

[ubermensch007]

This is what I wrote about Miri in my Fanfic: Commander Shepard's Log: 2185...

Miranda Lawson (Human) Is a genetically-engineered, Super-Woman!! Cerberus Officer, Second in Command, aboard my ship, and our Liaison to, The Illusive Man...She is a sight to behold and a marvel of science! In a strange way, that blurs the line betwixt, science and fantasy, from the story that Ms.Lawson, told me concerning her origin, she is kind of a, Sci-Fi version, of Wonder Woman...Princess Diana, was created by her single mother, with the aid of the Gods.Miranda, was created by her single father, with the aid of, the best and brightest in the scientific community.Men and women, who at times can seem to posses, God-like powers!

A real-life, super-woman, in the flesh...  

Beautiful:
From her face, to her figure, her lips, her hair, her eyes and smooth skin...She looks, how a woman, is suppose to look...(The ideal female form)...     http://t0.gstatic.co...135myAvr0_rXwFj




Intelligent:  Ms.Lawson, was the commanding officer of The Lazarus Station, and from what i saw of her log entries, she did not fail, in bringing me back, as she said, that she would not...



Athletic: Miranda, has the body of a fitness model, and moves with the grace of a ballerina...

http://t3.gstatic.co...S4XpwRKGRFaysJg

Powerful: From her steely exterior, to cold-confidence... and throw in her considerable biotic-abilities...and she is most certainly, a force to bereckoned with...   http://t3.gstatic.co...S3lXlqMHByYPPlA


In many ways, Miranda, has qualities and attributes, that most women, aspire to possess.Yet, she does not seem to see herself, that way.As a model to follow. I've been doing my best, to get her to see her gifts, and herself, as a blessing, instead of as an abomination.And i think that, I'm finally starting to convince her, of this."                               

http://t3.gstatic.co...HzKHcE7YrQIPks2
Finally... Is it just me or does Miranda just look like she smells really good? Oh and what I would like to see more of from her in Mass Effect 3, is her sense of humor.Which may be kind of under- rated and under - used.I remember thinking what she said to Shepard prior to leaving the Lazarus Project Station, was pretty funny. And showed a different side of her that I wished to see more of.And when she salutes Shepard and smiles at him prior to the Suicide Mission. I saw in that moment the innocent little girl that she once was, before her father started treating her like a "Pet Project" instead of a cherished and loved daughter...

Modifié par ubermensch007, 11 juillet 2011 - 09:36 .

[Arijharn]

Jebel Krong wrote...
i like the idea, i just don't really see logically the reapers going for it - after all once you have destroyed the seat of humanity their view has always been that even shep doesn't matter/can't stop them - their hubris may be their eventual undoing but it has always been there, even in "arrival".

Well, my theory does depend quite highly on a sense of added worth that Shephard may have for the Reapers. I mean, the Reapers have already demonstrated that they sort of act like a jilted lover with the amount of focus they've given our hero already.

No matter how many times Harbinger attempts to taunt and even kill Shephard, Shephard has continually proven that he's an utter badass by consistently foiling their attempts. Think about it; the Reapers must want Shephard's body (a bit like Miranda! ) because they not only tasked their proxy agents the Collector's with obtaining it, but also engaged the services of not only the prior Shadow Broker but also the Arrival DLC Dr. (otherwise, why not just kill Shephard after Object Rho activated or when she had the Harbinger/Collector General possessed eye effect).

But to get back to your point; if the Collector's 'intelligence network' is ranked at least as highly as Shadow Brokers and Cerberus' then they must have known that through the majority of ME2 at least he didn't have any official support. Coupled with when they (i.e., the Reapers) arrive there's likely going to be a slight sort of rallying sort of effect around Shephard, especially if the Reapers announce themselves to actually be the Reapers (Psychological Warfare 101 imo). Therefore; chances are that if the Reapers could kill or capture Shephard, it would have a crippling effect on survivor morale.

I think my scenario is even more likely to work mainly because Cerberus is taking advantage of (the seeming existence of) Reaper hubris.

[Ieldra]

ubermensch007 wrote...
Oh and what I would like to see more of from her in Mass Effect 3, is her sense of humor.Which may be kind of under- rated and under - used.I remember thinking what she said to Shepard prior to leaving the Lazarus Project Station, was pretty funny. And showed a different side of her that I wished to see more of.And when she salutes Shepard and smiles at him prior to the Suicide Mission. I saw in that moment the innocent little girl that she once was, before her father started treating her like a "Pet Project" instead of a cherished and loved daughter...

Heh...funny to notice that my maleSheps never saw her salute. Because you only get that if you don't romance her

Otherwise, I agree that Miranda has a better sense of humor than she gives herself credit for. She's not the joking type, but I think she has a sense for irony. You can hear it in her voice at times.

[Jebel Krong]

Arijharn wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
i like the idea, i just don't really see logically the reapers going for it - after all once you have destroyed the seat of humanity their view has always been that even shep doesn't matter/can't stop them - their hubris may be their eventual undoing but it has always been there, even in "arrival".

Well, my theory does depend quite highly on a sense of added worth that Shephard may have for the Reapers. I mean, the Reapers have already demonstrated that they sort of act like a jilted lover with the amount of focus they've given our hero already.

No matter how many times Harbinger attempts to taunt and even kill Shephard, Shephard has continually proven that he's an utter badass by consistently foiling their attempts. Think about it; the Reapers must want Shephard's body (a bit like Miranda! ) because they not only tasked their proxy agents the Collector's with obtaining it, but also engaged the services of not only the prior Shadow Broker but also the Arrival DLC Dr. (otherwise, why not just kill Shephard after Object Rho activated or when she had the Harbinger/Collector General possessed eye effect).

But to get back to your point; if the Collector's 'intelligence network' is ranked at least as highly as Shadow Brokers and Cerberus' then they must have known that through the majority of ME2 at least he didn't have any official support. Coupled with when they (i.e., the Reapers) arrive there's likely going to be a slight sort of rallying sort of effect around Shephard, especially if the Reapers announce themselves to actually be the Reapers (Psychological Warfare 101 imo). Therefore; chances are that if the Reapers could kill or capture Shephard, it would have a crippling effect on survivor morale.

I think my scenario is even more likely to work mainly because Cerberus is taking advantage of (the seeming existence of) Reaper hubris.

i would totally agree if arrival hadn't (stupidly) destroyed your very notion - they had shepard for 2 days and did nothing to him - and the problem being - as a dlc - they can't carry the consequences forward more than in passing if they did decide they had done something in the meantime, because you can't assume everyone played the dlc (and newcomers won't understand a development suddenly compromising them like that).

[Melra]

Jebel Krong wrote...

Arijharn wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
i like the idea, i just don't really see logically the reapers going for it - after all once you have destroyed the seat of humanity their view has always been that even shep doesn't matter/can't stop them - their hubris may be their eventual undoing but it has always been there, even in "arrival".

Well, my theory does depend quite highly on a sense of added worth that Shephard may have for the Reapers. I mean, the Reapers have already demonstrated that they sort of act like a jilted lover with the amount of focus they've given our hero already.

No matter how many times Harbinger attempts to taunt and even kill Shephard, Shephard has continually proven that he's an utter badass by consistently foiling their attempts. Think about it; the Reapers must want Shephard's body (a bit like Miranda! ) because they not only tasked their proxy agents the Collector's with obtaining it, but also engaged the services of not only the prior Shadow Broker but also the Arrival DLC Dr. (otherwise, why not just kill Shephard after Object Rho activated or when she had the Harbinger/Collector General possessed eye effect).

But to get back to your point; if the Collector's 'intelligence network' is ranked at least as highly as Shadow Brokers and Cerberus' then they must have known that through the majority of ME2 at least he didn't have any official support. Coupled with when they (i.e., the Reapers) arrive there's likely going to be a slight sort of rallying sort of effect around Shephard, especially if the Reapers announce themselves to actually be the Reapers (Psychological Warfare 101 imo). Therefore; chances are that if the Reapers could kill or capture Shephard, it would have a crippling effect on survivor morale.

I think my scenario is even more likely to work mainly because Cerberus is taking advantage of (the seeming existence of) Reaper hubris.

i would totally agree if arrival hadn't (stupidly) destroyed your very notion - they had shepard for 2 days and did nothing to him - and the problem being - as a dlc - they can't carry the consequences forward more than in passing if they did decide they had done something in the meantime, because you can't assume everyone played the dlc (and newcomers won't understand a development suddenly compromising them like that).

Ah, fantastic. I hadn't thought about it. No annoying twists like ''Haaahaaa we put something really nasty insaid ya! Now ya work for us!'' being rebuilt with Reaper tech inside, is bad enough.

[Arijharn]

Jebel Krong wrote...

i would totally agree if arrival hadn't (stupidly) destroyed your very notion - they had shepard for 2 days and did nothing to him - and the problem being - as a dlc - they can't carry the consequences forward more than in passing if they did decide they had done something in the meantime, because you can't assume everyone played the dlc (and newcomers won't understand a development suddenly compromising them like that).

It doesn't destroy it at all since they've said that whether you've done it or not; the events of Arrival occured and all it means that in those 2 days where they didn't do anything to him it means they couldn't do anything to him in the sense of 'preparing him for ascension.'

I.e., they didn't have any people-liquifying-test-tubes around the place, and presumably it means that if for some crazy notion you didn't do it post-SM, then the Collector's weren't able to rendevous with the Indoctrinated science team for whatever reason (they probably didn't want to needlessly antagonize the Batarian's, because I'm pretty sure the Collector cruiser isn't stealth (since Normandy SR-1 detected it after all) and the Batarian's have a crap tonne of spy satellites all over the place in the system.) 

So I don't think it destroys it's likelihood at all, although I still doubt it would occur (BioWare, hire me for your next game so I can make dirty twists in it!)

[conrad winkles]

love and support Miranda!

[Ieldra]

Reposting.....but this picture is far too good to remain mostly unlooked-at in the OP:


(artist link)

[Sebby]

It's a shame that Miranda looks better in fanart and on the cover of ME2 than she does in the actual game.

[ISpeakTheTruth]

We Miranda fan are probably going to have to suffer through months and months of not being told about anything about her. There's an active attempt not to talk about Miranda while other people are being talked about rather openly (Tali and Jack). She is either being made very important to the story and therefore don't want to spoil anything or is being given such a small role that they don't want to get fans upset. Either way we're going to be left hanging for a while I fear.

[jtav]

Ieldra2 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Funny how some of our squadmates have done far more horrible things than Miranda ever did but are ignored. Being rude to Shepard appears to be the ultimate sin.

Yeah....strange how Jack never gets called out for mass murder, while Miranda is "an elitist Cerberus b*itch" just because she doesn't worship at Shepard's feet and is confident in following her own cause. 

Devil's advocate: I'm harder on Miranda because I hold her to a higher standard. She has much better control and reasoning avilities.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

MisterJB wrote...
Funny how some of our squadmates have done far more horrible things than Miranda ever did but are ignored. Being rude to Shepard appears to be the ultimate sin.

Yeah....strange how Jack never gets called out for mass murder, while Miranda is "an elitist Cerberus b*itch" just because she doesn't worship at Shepard's feet and is confident in following her own cause. 

Devil's advocate: I'm harder on Miranda because I hold her to a higher standard. She has much better control and reasoning avilities.

Yes....only that not worshiping at Shepard's feet and being confident in following her own cause are not character flaws that need to be controlled. Yet that's what makes some people hate Miranda.

[jtav]

I think we got our wires crossed Ieldra. I was responding to 'strange how Jack never gets called out for mass murder." You won't find me calling Miranda;s independence and reserve flaws.

[Jebel Krong]

Arijharn wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...

i would totally agree if arrival hadn't (stupidly) destroyed your very notion - they had shepard for 2 days and did nothing to him - and the problem being - as a dlc - they can't carry the consequences forward more than in passing if they did decide they had done something in the meantime, because you can't assume everyone played the dlc (and newcomers won't understand a development suddenly compromising them like that).

It doesn't destroy it at all since they've said that whether you've done it or not; the events of Arrival occured and all it means that in those 2 days where they didn't do anything to him it means they couldn't do anything to him in the sense of 'preparing him for ascension.'

I.e., they didn't have any people-liquifying-test-tubes around the place, and presumably it means that if for some crazy notion you didn't do it post-SM, then the Collector's weren't able to rendevous with the Indoctrinated science team for whatever reason (they probably didn't want to needlessly antagonize the Batarian's, because I'm pretty sure the Collector cruiser isn't stealth (since Normandy SR-1 detected it after all) and the Batarian's have a crap tonne of spy satellites all over the place in the system.) 

So I don't think it destroys it's likelihood at all, although I still doubt it would occur (BioWare, hire me for your next game so I can make dirty twists in it!)

they could have killed him/implanted him with anything, left him near the machine to be indoctrinated etc. the fact that they didn't is either a glaring omission, deliberate (i.e. meaning perhaps that shepard is resistant, naturally, through the prothean beacon or through his implants even), or because that it doesn't jive with where they want to take ME3, which is the most likely explanation.

[MisterJB]

Jebel Krong wrote...
 (i.e. meaning perhaps that shepard is resistant, naturally, through the prothean beacon or through his implants even),

Could be that the Reapers want Shepard exactly as he is, intelligence included, and since indocrination affects mental capabilities...

[Arijharn]

I think it's readily apparent though that they don't want to kill him. They'll kill him if they have too, but obviously they prefer it if they didn't. Or at least, don't want to overly destroy his body (i.e, cell death etc over a period of time).

[jtav]

Vertigo_1 wrote...

I should perhaps leave this here too (if you haven't seen it):

twitter.com/#!/patsquinade/status/90258605617586176

"Lots of old friends grow and change in ME3. Jack is one of my favorites now."


I think it says a lot about how they are handling the ME2 exclusive characters (I hope anyway)...

Good news if you ask me. They're paying some attention to the ME2-exclusives. And I would like Jack as a permanent squaddie. Not as much as Miranda, but I wouldn't exactly be consumed by resentment.

Modifié par jtav, 11 juillet 2011 - 02:55 .

[wolf99000]

my theory on them working with the reapers is this we already know that tim is at the least party indoctrinated so maybe the reapers proximity to him has something to do with ie he had some control of his actions but now they are in they have arrived the indoctrination has took over

plus I am sure the reapers would want all the info on how you are running around still after the collectors killed you

[Jebel Krong]

MisterJB wrote...

Jebel Krong wrote...
 (i.e. meaning perhaps that shepard is resistant, naturally, through the prothean beacon or through his implants even),

Could be that the Reapers want Shepard exactly as he is, intelligence included, and since indocrination affects mental capabilities...

why? it's not like he'd work for them willingly, and it'd be easy enough to "saren" him, if that was the case, though i doubt that'd work as shep would rebel even more as he knows it's possible, and if the reapers then tried more indoctrination he'd lose all effectiveness anyway.

Arijharn wrote...

I think it's readily apparent though that they don't want to kill him. They'll kill him if they have too, but obviously they prefer it if they didn't. Or at least, don't want to overly destroy his body (i.e, cell death etc over a period of time).

if that's true, it goes against everything in the last 2 games, after all everyone has been trying to kill you, even sovereign did.

[jtav]

Hmm. I wonder if Miranda and Jacob might get the short end of the stick and be the LIs demoted to temp status?

[Melra]

Oi boi, Jack.. One side of the story I'll never have to see. Mmm!

And btw. Shepard hadn't defeated the Reapers in ME1, why would Sovereign want him alive, if it considers Shepard to be nothing but a minor nuisance? In ME2 Collectors wanted Shepard alive.

Anyway... Those Miri news should've been here -yesterday- *sigh*

[Prudii Aden]

New outbreak of pessimism jtav? What brought this on?

[MisterJB]

Jebel Krong wrote...
why? it's not like he'd work for them willingly, and it'd be easy enough to "saren" him, if that was the case, though i doubt that'd work as shep would rebel even more as he knows it's possible, and if the reapers then tried more indoctrination he'd lose all effectiveness anyway.

The Reapers could want Shepard to be the dominant conscience on the future Human Reaper and indocrination causes irreversible damage.

if that's true, it goes against everything in the last 2 games, after all everyone has been trying to kill you, even sovereign did.

Like Melrache said, humanity only got the Reaper's attention after the destroyed Sovereign. No reason for Sovy to try and preserve Shepard.