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[o Ventus]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Oh. It never came up with me. I assume that's because I always stopped her from killing him. Is this during the second game? Or dialogue in the third as a result?

In the elevator immediately following the shootout with Enyala.

[jtav]

Second game, in the elevator before you get to Ori.

Like I said, this impostor isn't Miranda.

[CrutchCricket]

redBadger14 wrote...

I completely agree, but I look at it from this standpoint: Miranda has always been a confident woman who takes great pride in her work. What happened with Cerberus at the end of ME2 and going into ME3 however I see as the lowest low blow that could have been delivered to Miranda. She put her faith in this organization for 20+ years, and even used the organization to help keep Oriana from her father. To suddenly come to the realization that all her work, that she held such convictions for,  be rendered as horrendous and destroying the heart of what makes humans "human" I think was the worst kind of guilt Miranda could endure. Of course she goes to lengths to fix her mistakes and cripple Cerberus, but I think that guilt will linger over her head for a while. Add that on top of Cerberus supporting Miranda's father in undertaking experiments to fuse Reaper tech in humans, the exact thing Miranda was fighting against her father for, and you have something that weighs heavily on her. Have no illusions though, she finds her strength in doing what she can to cripple Cerberus, and I think that is a powerful aspect of her character in ME3 that can be so easily overlooked.

Agreed. In fact I would venture that she's feeling the same type of disappointment as we are over the RGB ending(s). In the end it didn't even matter.

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...
Like I said, this impostor isn't Miranda.

Well at least your fantastically radical opinions aren't going away anytime soon. I'll take them as reminders of a better time.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...
Oh. It never came up with me. I assume that's because I always stopped her from killing him. Is this during the second game? Or dialogue in the third as a result?

In ME2. You'd think something that creates a character trait would be in ME3? Hey, that would be....meaningful character development. Can't have that for anyone but Liara. /sarcasm.

[o Ventus]

Ieldra2 wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...
Oh. It never came up with me. I assume that's because I always stopped her from killing him. Is this during the second game? Or dialogue in the third as a result?

In ME2. You'd think something that creates a character trait would be in ME3? Hey, that would be....meaningful character development. Can't have that for anyone but Liara. /sarcasm.

You could remove the sarcasm tag, it's basically true.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Second game, in the elevator before you get to Ori.

Like I said, this impostor isn't Miranda.

I fully agree. If my experience of her in ME2 weren't still in the background, I would find her boring in ME3. At least they only watered her down in ME3 instead of character-assassinating her. Though they came close.

[redBadger14]

@Crutch: Hehe, very true.

@jtav: I wouldn't go so far to say that. Miranda had some welcome and proper character development in ME3, some that I *sort of* expected from her. In fact, I think Miranda's character has become more "humanized" in ME3 and her character drifts from being the cold operative we knew from ME2. And I think that's a good thing. I wouldn't want her character to be stuck in what we saw from ME2. Apologies though if I am misinterpreting your intentions jtav.

[o Ventus]

I'm on the fence about her ME3 presentation. On one hand, I am grateful she isn't a carbon-copy of her ME2 incarnation. On the other hand, I miss some of those traits.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
In ME2. You'd think something that creates a character trait would be in ME3? Hey, that would be....meaningful character development. Can't have that for anyone but Liara. /sarcasm.

To be fair, apart from the time capsule thing (which I actually appreciated the most out of any NPC action I've seen to date) Liara didn't do anything I found particularly interesting. Javik pretty much upstaged her as the wise older alien (even though he was supposed to be more analogous to Shepard himself.)

[Ieldra]

redBadger14 wrote...
@jtav: I wouldn't go so far to say that. Miranda had some welcome and proper character development in ME3, some that I *sort of* expected from her. In fact, I think Miranda's character has become more "humanized" in ME3 and her character drifts from being the cold operative we knew from ME2. And I think that's a good thing. I wouldn't want her character to be stuck in what we saw from ME2. Apologies though if I am misinterpreting your intentions jtav.

You know why I hate this talk of "humanizing"? because it implies that certain character traits I happen to appreciate make someone less than human.
What I wanted to see was everything: the calculating operative and the loving sister and romance-Miranda. But only the romance version got any character development. She's now more confident in the romance and I like that. What I don't like is that she's lost her edge. Whatever is left of that is an informed trait, not present on screen.

[TomY90]

The only character I say actually changed from ME2 to ME3 is EDI and thats because shepard was answering questions for her and basically created a conscious.

and Javik was the only interesting character thanks to him being a former extinct race and his opinions are very different to what we are used to in ME characters.

[flemm]

CrutchCricket wrote...

jtav wrote...
Like I said, this impostor isn't Miranda.

Well at least your fantastically radical opinions aren't going away anytime soon. I'll take them as reminders of a better time.

Well, the thing is, I basically agree. And I've always been open to the idea of a more emotional Miranda and even a somewhat more paragon-oriented one.

That's not the same as being open to a diluted version of the character, though. To develop a character, you can't just abandon important character traits (or slap on new ones). You have to develop/evolve existing ones.

In passing, a lot of what's been done with Liara (though arguably not all), is really character makeover, rather than character development (slapping on new traits), so I don't necessarily see it as the best model.

But with Miranda what we have is character dilution, or character mutilation (to use a more extreme metaphor). Too much of the character as initially presented simply disappears. Concretely, this means too much Oriana, not enough operative/Cerberus/big picture/woman on a mission.

Both sides are important, and Miranda in ME3 is way out of balance.

Modifié par flemm, 21 mars 2012 - 04:19 .

[redBadger14]

CrutchCricket wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...
In ME2. You'd think something that creates a character trait would be in ME3? Hey, that would be....meaningful character development. Can't have that for anyone but Liara. /sarcasm.

To be fair, apart from the time capsule thing (which I actually appreciated the most out of any NPC action I've seen to date) Liara didn't do anything I found particularly interesting. Javik pretty much upstaged her as the wise older alien (even though he was supposed to be more analogous to Shepard himself.)

Agreed on this. Liara did not have much development in ME3, but frankly she didn't really need that much. In ME1 she was naive but incredibly intelligent. In ME2 she became stone-cold ruthless and mature, but LotSB showed she still had a bit of naitivety to her character. In ME3, she "settles down" and loses her cold, stoic nature from ME2 and matures completely as a person, still has a bit of naitivety to her character but that's what makes her Liara.

Edit: I see sort of the same with Miranda. She didn't have *too* much character development, but enough to see a subtle change while not compromising her base nature from ME2.

Modifié par redBadger14, 21 mars 2012 - 04:18 .

[o Ventus]

TomY90 wrote...

The only character I say actually changed from ME2 to ME3 is EDI and thats because shepard was answering questions for her and basically created a conscious.

and Javik was the only interesting character thanks to him being a former extinct race and his opinions are very different to what we are used to in ME characters.

Agreed. I was surprised Javik impressed me as much as he did. He's the cliche "Only survivor of a lost people", but he makes it fresh and interesting.

[o Ventus]

*Crosses fingers for ME2 character DLC's*

It's insulting that only 2 of them have any extended screen time, even more insulting when those same two come aboard the Normandy for a bit of the game.

[redBadger14]

o Ventus wrote...

TomY90 wrote...

The only character I say actually changed from ME2 to ME3 is EDI and thats because shepard was answering questions for her and basically created a conscious.

and Javik was the only interesting character thanks to him being a former extinct race and his opinions are very different to what we are used to in ME characters.

Agreed. I was surprised Javik impressed me as much as he did. He's the cliche "Only survivor of a lost people", but he makes it fresh and interesting.

What I loved about Javik was that he was the strongest character, emotionally, in the game. Yeah, he is the cliche "Only survivor of my race" kind of character, but he doesn't wallow in pity for his people. He presents strong opinions and convictions which he does not back down from, and while his opinions may be brutal at times, he was honest and provided some insight for Shepard and Liara and such. Plus, he developed in the game from being totally ignorant and dismissive of the potential of the other races to being optimistic about the other races and what they can offer for the future of the galaxy, and that they can "finish what the Protheans started."

[jtav]

Read Brave New World or Shadow War and tell me I have a problem with a loving, emotional Miranda. The problem is that that isn't the whole story. She's also brilliant, devoted to human advancement, and a little shady. Where's that aspect?

[CrutchCricket]

flemm: Well you do see a couple of emails on the Shadow Broker terminal about her running some raids on Cerberus or something and the Alliance basically going "we can't allow this" *nodding heads furiously. Then she has a fighter squadron in the final battle or something? So I wouldn't say her professional side is absent, it's just not seen.

It isn't satisfying. But it isn't a crime either.

[o Ventus]

CrutchCricket wrote...

flemm: Well you do see a couple of emails on the Shadow Broker terminal about her running some raids on Cerberus or something and the Alliance basically going "we can't allow this" *nodding heads furiously. Then she has a fighter squadron in the final battle or something? So I wouldn't say her professional side is absent, it's just not seen.

It isn't satisfying. But it isn't a crime either.

This.

I just wish it was more clear what she's doing, considering all the other ME2 characters flat out say "Hey Shepard, I'm doing this--". For Miranda, you have to go and check Liara's terminal.

Modifié par o Ventus, 21 mars 2012 - 04:30 .

[redBadger14]

jtav wrote...

Read Brave New World or Shadow War and tell me I have a problem with a loving, emotional Miranda. The problem is that that isn't the whole story. She's also brilliant, devoted to human advancement, and a little shady. Where's that aspect?

She was devoted to human advancement when she was with Cerberus. The revelation of what Cerberus's true intentions were put that side of her into question, and I think we see that in her character in ME3. She is not confident she did the right thing when she was with Cerberus, but she tries to right her wrongs by doing what she can to cripple Cerberus. I think that represents her trying to redeem herself and truly advance humanity by putting a stop to Cerberus's assassination of what makes humans "human." Cerberus wants to change humanity for the worse. Miranda is trying to preserve what humanity really is. She does not want humanity to become genetically altered or manufactured, she wants to keep humanity pure. That is what I love about her in ME3.

The shady side of her never went away. We see this constantly with her in ME3. She makes herself scarce. She especially shows her shady side when she asks for Shepard's resources but refuses to tell him why, no matter if you romance her or not. Also, the raids on Cerberus bases in the Shadow Broker terminal mail. She manages to do that while eluding the Alliance (even though the Alliance addresses her activities).

Brilliance, again this never disappeared from Miranda's character. Her brillance is shown throughout ME3. We probably don't see it as much as we should because Miranda makes herself scarce. But she manages to discover the truth of the Sanctuary facility and her father's involvement with Cerberus, she can save Oriana *and* kill her father once and for all, and she also manages to place a tracer on Kai Leng so Shepard can finally finish the fight against Cerberus. If that is not a display of brilliance, I don't know what is.

Modifié par redBadger14, 21 mars 2012 - 04:34 .

[jtav]

It's pretty blatant damage control that doesn't quite fit with the game, especially the last vidcomm call.Miranda sounds as if she has only recovered and made overtures to the Alliance recently, both of which are inconsistent with the email.

[redBadger14]

jtav wrote...

It's pretty blatant damage control that doesn't quite fit with the game, especially the last vidcomm call.Miranda sounds as if she has only recovered and made overtures to the Alliance recently, both of which are inconsistent with the email.

I disagree that its purely damage control. It seems like it, but it really isn't.

And I would expect Miranda and the Alliance to come to terms at some point. Putting a "timestamp" on the Shadow Broker intel is irrelevant. The fact that it happened before the final assault on Earth makes it even more realistic. The Alliance can't keep up grudges against what Miranda had done, and needed her for the final assault. They buried the hatchet and I was happy to see it.

Modifié par redBadger14, 21 mars 2012 - 04:40 .

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
It's pretty blatant damage control that doesn't quite fit with the game, especially the last vidcomm call.Miranda sounds as if she has only recovered and made overtures to the Alliance recently, both of which are inconsistent with the email.

Didn't you say you like Miranda as in that email? Did anything change?

Yes, it is damage control, but a reasonably good attempt at it. I'm still annoyed they apparently forgot some of her core traits in their writing of ME3, but I think this really saves Miranda in ME3.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 21 mars 2012 - 04:43 .

[Td1984]

o Ventus wrote...

pyro_technician wrote...

Huh. Had a dream that Miranda somehow showed up at my house with my roomies when we were drinking and apparently started lecturing us on how we were wasting our potential by playing video games all the time. I think my brain is trying to tell me something. Either that or it was the tacos I had for dinner. Either way, it was....strange.

That's nothing compared to the dream I had the other night...

Sadly, if I were to go into detail about the events therein, I may be banned from this site.

A few nights ago, I had a dream that as I was headed to see Miranda for that romance culmination scene in the apartments on the Citadel, I found a diamond ring lying on the ground (I finally managed to reach that scene yesterday).