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[Ieldra]

I was asked to post this tribute trailer here:



by Aliqaiser

[ThomGau]

This is nice Thank you.

[cg8900]

very nice video

[jtav]

Going back to the idea of dilution, if their resources were so limited, wouldn't it have been better for her to replace Brynn on Gellix and toss in a quick romance scene during downtime and an email/Citadel conversation/fetch quest from an Ori who wants news of her sister? Not exciting, but you could at least hit most character beats. And Gellix was one way to get TIM's location in an older draft.

[CrutchCricket]

jtav wrote...

Going back to the idea of dilution, if their resources were so limited, wouldn't it have been better for her to replace Brynn on Gellix and toss in a quick romance scene during downtime and an email/Citadel conversation/fetch quest from an Ori who wants news of her sister? Not exciting, but you could at least hit most character beats. And Gellix was one way to get TIM's location in an older draft.

Not if replacing Brynn means ending up with Jacob. That might finally make me willingly kill someone in the Suicide Mission. Jacob's already got one strike against him for Kasumi's comment.

Besides if we go with the idea that Miranda is on the run from Cerberus she might be too high profile to hide out with the rest of the Cerberus scientists who only got discovered recently.

I don't know if a lack of resources holds much weight either way though. Going back to Kasumi, I remember thinking I actually like what she ends up doing - "procurring" resources for the Crucible. I felt it was the most appropriate thing for her to do if she wasn't with me. I have other issues with her appearance but that wasn't one of them.

Basically if that email from the Alliance to Miranda came sooner or if on the Citadel she just said something like "Feeding the Alliance info about Cerberus without them finding me isn't easy. I'm off to raid." I would've been happy with that.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

Going back to the idea of dilution, if their resources were so limited, wouldn't it have been better for her to replace Brynn on Gellix and toss in a quick romance scene during downtime and an email/Citadel conversation/fetch quest from an Ori who wants news of her sister? Not exciting, but you could at least hit most character beats. And Gellix was one way to get TIM's location in an older draft.

I don't think so, because on a conceptual level, Sanctuary should be a better way to handle the essential elements of Miranda's character/story arc (Cerberus/genetic origins/father-Oriana) than the alternate you are proposing.

There would be a major whole either way if Miranda doesn't come along for TIM's base (there's just no way around that), so nothing would change there.

Problem is the implementation and the writing, including the fact that Miranda is not around much even during the one mission where she is active.

An alternate that I think would have worked would be establishing Miranda's renegade Cerberus team right away, and have that be how you initially meet her. You could have a holo-dialogue with TIM during that mission to deal with that aspect right away. Sanctuary could be basically as is, though with more substance in the dialogue with the father. If Miranda survives, she goes back to her team, which is a war asset. 

Basically, in that scenario, an early mission replaces Miranda's active participation at the TIM's base. I don't like it as much, but I think it would also have worked.

Modifié par flemm, 22 mars 2012 - 03:12 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

At the beginning of that video, Miri says "I love you." She only says that in the death scene. I didn't want to see the death scene, nor hear it. Thank you. The thumbnail pictures weren't enough? Now I have Miri's dying voice to haunt me.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 22 mars 2012 - 03:10 .

[redBadger14]

Ieldra2 wrote...

redBadger14 wrote...
Cerberus wants to change humanity for the worse. Miranda is trying to preserve what humanity really is. She does not want humanity to become genetically altered or manufactured, she wants to keep humanity pure. That is what I love about her in ME3.

There is not a shred of evidence to support this assumption. In fact she says "Cerberus fully endorses anything that advances the cause of humanity... genetic alterations included." in ME2, and there is not the least hint of disapproval in her voice. There is no indication that this has changed.

In fact, I don't think Miranda believes in notions of purity at all. And it is a false assumption there is a "true humanity" at all. Biology would suggest otherwise. Species are malleable. Humanity may change through selection pressure or by deliberate engineering, but neither is more "true" than the other.

What Miranda shows in Sanctuary is that she doesn't want humans to be mutated into husks. Because that's what they're doing at Sanctuary. She's not willing to follow Cerberus down this path, and of course we expected nothing else because she's not a villain.

She wants to separate Oriana from her father's domineering influence, i.e. separate the creation (essentially good) from the creator (evil because of his intentions). Or at least, that's what it might/should mean.

Indeed. It's her father's control she wants them both to escape. That's it. She always goes on about how he's very controlling etc... in ME2 and ME3.

To Flemm as well...

I amended my statement somewhere back when CrutchCricket brought up the same point. Miranda wants to advance humanity through safe means, and she does not want to take the Cerberus path of human advancement through human domination. I'll need to dig through to find my post.

redBadger14 wrote...

CrutchCricket wrote...

redBadger14 wrote...
She was devoted to human advancement when she was with Cerberus. The revelation of what Cerberus's true intentions were put that side of her into question, and I think we see that in her character in ME3. She is not confident she did the right thing when she was with Cerberus, but she tries to right her wrongs by doing what she can to cripple Cerberus. I think that represents her trying to redeem herself and truly advance humanity by putting a stop to Cerberus's assassination of what makes humans "human." Cerberus wants to change humanity for the worse. Miranda is trying to preserve what humanity really is. She does not want humanity to become genetically altered or manufactured, she wants to keep humanity pure. That is what I love about her in ME3.

The shady side of her never went away. We see this constantly with her in ME3. She makes herself scarce. She especially shows her shady side when she asks for Shepard's resources but refuses to tell him why, no matter if you romance her or not. Also, the raids on Cerberus bases in the Shadow Broker terminal mail. She manages to do that while eluding the Alliance (even though the Alliance addresses her activities).

Brilliance, again this never disappeared from Miranda's character. Her brillance is shown throughout ME3. We probably don't see it as much as we should because Miranda makes herself scarce. But she manages to discover the truth of the Sanctuary facility and her father's involvement with Cerberus, she can save Oriana *and* kill her father once and for all, and she also manages to place a tracer on Kai Leng so Shepard can finally finish the fight against Cerberus. If that is not a display of brilliance, I don't know what is.

Well put. Just a little thing in the first paragraph though- human advancement and human dominance aren't the same thing. Cerberus wanted the latter. But you can have the former without it, and without being a dick about it. That's what this thread sees Miranda as doing. And careful about the genetic engineering/alteration. Not all of necessarily bad. Suggesting otherwise is a... touchy issue around here.

Ah, thanks for catching that. That was what I was aiming for was Cerberus's goal for human dominance, disguised by claiming it as human advancement. And yeah, wasn't necessarily saying that genetic engineering/alteration was a bad thing. Apologies if it came across that way. Rather, I was aiming for how Miranda did not want herself to be genetically engineered, and probably did not want the same for humanity when her father's experiments came to light.

But yeah, I think Miranda's key traits are present in ME3. They aren't shoved in your face, but rather you need to extrapolate from her actions in ME3 to find the underlying motivations behind them that almost perfectly link to her traits from ME2 that we loved.

 
Here we go. I amended what I previously said. Words came out wrong. And yes I know her main goal was to liberate Oriana, but Miranda also went to lengths to get the message out that Sanctuary was a death-trap (even though Shepard needs to unjam communications).

Modifié par redBadger14, 22 mars 2012 - 03:24 .

[redBadger14]

enayasoul wrote...

redBadger14 wrote...

jtav wrote...

Read Brave New World or Shadow War and tell me I have a problem with a loving, emotional Miranda. The problem is that that isn't the whole story. She's also brilliant, devoted to human advancement, and a little shady. Where's that aspect?

She was devoted to human advancement when she was with Cerberus. The revelation of what Cerberus's true intentions were put that side of her into question, and I think we see that in her character in ME3. She is not confident she did the right thing when she was with Cerberus, but she tries to right her wrongs by doing what she can to cripple Cerberus. I think that represents her trying to redeem herself and truly advance humanity by putting a stop to Cerberus's assassination of what makes humans "human." Cerberus wants to change humanity for the worse. Miranda is trying to preserve what humanity really is. She does not want humanity to become genetically altered or manufactured, she wants to keep humanity pure. That is what I love about her in ME3.

The shady side of her never went away. We see this constantly with her in ME3. She makes herself scarce. She especially shows her shady side when she asks for Shepard's resources but refuses to tell him why, no matter if you romance her or not. Also, the raids on Cerberus bases in the Shadow Broker terminal mail. She manages to do that while eluding the Alliance (even though the Alliance addresses her activities).

Brilliance, again this never disappeared from Miranda's character. Her brillance is shown throughout ME3. We probably don't see it as much as we should because Miranda makes herself scarce. But she manages to discover the truth of the Sanctuary facility and her father's involvement with Cerberus, she can save Oriana *and* kill her father once and for all, and she also manages to place a tracer on Kai Leng so Shepard can finally finish the fight against Cerberus. If that is not a display of brilliance, I don't know what is.

You're right!  You're soooo right with stated everything above.  You've clearly expressed what I agree with as oppose to other comments posted on previous pages back...   THANK YOU!  I don't care what anyone else says, I absolutely LOVED Miranda in ME3. 

Glad you agreed! While I did make a mistake in saying Miranda wants to keep humanity pure (she wants to preserve humanity but make advances safely and naturally, unlike Cerberus), I think the rest of my points are sound. Miranda is not someone to take at face value in ME3, digging into her motivations really brings out all those traits we know her by. 

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

I was asked to post this tribute trailer here:



by Aliqaiser

Very nice, thanks

[jtav]

Anybody want me to transcribe the email you get from Ori if Miranda died?

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

I SINCERELY Hope that Miri Survived the Battle For Earth.


Do any of you guys think she had a chance to take down a few Brutes and Banshees....and some Harvesters? How many would you think she took down on her own, or with a squad, if she was on Earth?

Could you imagine it?

@ jtav Do NOT post it here! The video thumbnails and Miri's dying voice in that damn tribute video above haunt me already!

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 22 mars 2012 - 03:44 .

[flemm]

redBadger14 wrote...

To Flemm as well...

I amended my statement somewhere back when CrutchCricket brought up the same point. Miranda wants to advance humanity through safe means, and she does not want to take the Cerberus path of human advancement through human domination.

Agreed, my bad for missing your follow-up post.

On that subject, though, I don't think the distinction is made clearly enough in the game. That doesn't mean that I can't go on interpreting the character's mindset in that way, but at some point she needs to speak about her goals, and talk about what she thinks about her previous dedication to Cerberus.

That is the basic problem. She was dedicated to Cerberus, and had been for years. She explains why in ME2, and it makes sense. She justifies it without coming across as a cruel or inhumane individual (because she isn't), though she is capable of ruthlessness when needed.

So, now things have changed. She's left the organisation. Even the simple question of why she left is never really addressed.

There's real character development to be accomplished there, but none of it is actually realized, because the writing avoids the issue.

It's a terrorist organisation, or most people believe that it is, and she was one of its leaders. It's not like quitting a job at some random corporation. You can't just wash your hands of it like nothing happened.

Modifié par flemm, 22 mars 2012 - 03:49 .

[cg8900]

I would like to see ori's mail, since I'll never get it in game

[jtav]

Oriana's letter:

My Sister Miranda
From: Oriana Lawson

Commander Shepard,

I understand you worked a lot with my sister Miranda. I never got a chance to meet her, and often wonder when she was like. Maybe one day you’d be willing to sit down and tell me about her.

Our father recently contacted me. I don't know if Miranda mentioned him, but he found me, told me he was sorry, told me he wanted to make up for things. He talked about doing important work for humanity, something that could change the course of the war. A huge secret. Now he's taking me somewhere. I'm not sure where. Something doesn't seem right. Maybe it's nothing, but I'm spooked.

Anyway, when we get to wherever he's taking me, I'll let you know.

Oriana Lawson

I don't know if there is a variation for Miranda dying after the loyalty mission was complete, but I sort of doubt it.

[ThomGau]

Thank you jtav.
Despite the downer aspect of Miranda's death this is interesting, it tells us more about Henry. "He was sorry", I wonder if he really meant that or if it is just a ruse.

Modifié par ThomGau, 22 mars 2012 - 04:01 .

[cg8900]

thx for the letter, would be weird though to do sanctuary without miranda

Modifié par cg8900, 22 mars 2012 - 04:04 .

[CrutchCricket]

ThomGau wrote...

Thank you jtav.
Despite the downer aspect of Miranda's death this is interesting, it tells us more about Henry. "He was sorry", I wonder if he really meant that or if it is just a ruse.

Sorry my ass. You have to wonder exactly why did Lawson take her to Sanctuary in the first place, considering it's just a husk-making factory...

[Dr. Doctor]

jtav wrote...

Anybody want me to transcribe the email you get from Ori if Miranda died?

Go for it.


The problem I have with Sanctuary is that it's just...there. Yes we get to see Miranda in action, but from a narrative standpoint there really isn't much of a reason why it should be there. Shepard loses the Prothean data to Kai Leng on Thessia only to get the tracker information in the next mission. It seems almost as if they wanted to stretch out the whole "Shepard vs. Leng" idea for as long as they could.

[ThomGau]

@CC : Yeah, he probably didn't mean it.
A part of me would like to think the situation is more ambiguous than as it is presented in the game and the other part of me wants him dead, a payback for what he's done to Miranda.

Modifié par ThomGau, 22 mars 2012 - 04:38 .

[MASSEFFECTfanforlife101]

I'm so sick of all of you talking about Miri's death so much, as if you all THRIVE it for some damn reason. This is sick. You all are so negative and depressing. The Miranda Thread is NOT supposed to be revolving around Miri's death. And most of forever believe that you are the "Hierarchy" of the Thread, looking down towards other who don't think like you do. You know what? I don't blame those other people who think differently, I don't blame them leaving the thread. Most of you have sick minds now think negative things about Miri as if it has become a fetish to most of you. This is sick, disgusting whatever. I didn't come here for constant acknowledgement for Miri's death because MOST of you aren't grateful of having Miri in ME3 in the first place. I have NO problem with the way she was in ME3. I'm so sick of the whinning of how much it all doesn't meet your standards. I came here to Support my LI, not to see people ranting about her death, and breaking up with her. 

What has this thread become? I loved Every Moment with Miri in ME3 (THANK GOD SHE SUVIVED!). You have a problem with that? I'm VERY Happy that I do NOT think like most of you do.

Good day. I shall look for a Miri Group where people haven't lost their ways.

Modifié par MASSEFFECTfanforlife101, 22 mars 2012 - 04:18 .

[flemm]

Dr. Doctor wrote...

The problem I have with Sanctuary is that it's just...there. Yes we get to see Miranda in action, but from a narrative standpoint there really isn't much of a reason why it should be there.

Well, I think you're right based on what's in the game. I think it could/should have filled a clearer narrative purpose, though, because it represents the depths of TIM's perversion of the ideals his own organisation stood for/claims to have stood for.

We should also find out more about the indoctrinated troops who show up early on, and then throughout the game, but about whom we never really learn much.

One other thing Miranda could have been involved with is freeing those troops from indoctrination, thereby undoing the evil her father presumably was intrumental in helping TIM accomplish.

This fits with the distinction between Miranda's vision of Cerberus and TIM's: he sells out Oriana to get Henry's help, thereby losing Miranda's allegiance, etc.

I could imagine several choices here, including one in which Miranda sacrifices herself to free the troops. But in the game, as you say, there's... nothing really.

[enayasoul]

wow that's a weird letter. But good that Oriana felt something wasn't right. Naive to believe her "father" wanted to make up for things. THANK GOD Shepard encouraged Miranda to speak with her sister!

[CrutchCricket]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
It seems almost as if they wanted to stretch out the whole "Shepard vs. Leng" idea for as long as they could.

Funny I kind of wanted it stretched out more. He seems like a worthy rival, the only one to actually stop Shepard on a mission (Collectors don't count.) I especially wanted to see a more drawn out cutscene fight where Leng's doing all this kungfu ****  hopping around and striking and Shep's just taking it. And finally Shepard just grabs him and wails on him. I wanted to really feel like I beat him. There was too much going on in the actual gameplay battle to get that.

[enayasoul]

CrutchCricket wrote...

ThomGau wrote...

Thank you jtav.
Despite the downer aspect of Miranda's death this is interesting, it tells us more about Henry. "He was sorry", I wonder if he really meant that or if it is just a ruse.

Sorry my ass. You have to wonder exactly why did Lawson take her to Sanctuary in the first place, considering it's just a husk-making factory...

OH ****!!!  I hope he wasn't planning on telling Oriana "Look at my handiwork? Isn't it marvelous!  I'll be seen as the savior of the human race!"  OH GOD.  Run, Oriana, run!!!