82210 réponses à ce sujet

[flemm]

Richard 060 wrote...
If it's possible to artificially create a child from only one parent's genetic material (duplicated to create a female variant on Henry Lawson's, in this specific case), how difficult would it be to use the same sort of cloning techniques to implant a healthy ovum with Miranda's DNA, and fertilise that, possibly resorting to a surrogate mother to give birth to the child?

Heck, we can technically do most (if not all) of that NOW. As posted up-thread, compared to Project Lazarus, it's practically first aid...

Agreed.

The underlying problem, I think, though, is that the infertility was not introduced for poorly understood scientific or medical reasons.

I think it's essentially there because of a (maybe not fully conscious) application of the idea that "different = wrong." That idea is at the root of most (all?) human prejudice, thus making the whole thing actually offensive.

Miranda's origin is different/unusual, ergo there must be something *wrong* with it. Actually, there's no reason at all to believe that there's anything fundamentally wrong with it, any more than there is anything fundamentally wrong with in-vitro fertilization or surrogate motherhood (though some people no doubt believe those are wrong as well).

What is wrong, ethically and morally, is what Miranda's father wants to do with the technology, i.e. use it for selfish reasons, for his own benefit and to the detriment of others.

That's why applying Lazarus technology or genetic engineering in a more egalitarian/altruistic manner makes sense as a potential character arc for Miranda.

Something like that must have crossed this artist's mind (matt rhodes), it's called "Presidium Hospital":

 



I would have liked to see something along those lines in the game.

[jameshawking]

Richard 060 wrote...

The problem with the whole infertility thing, anyway? Miranda herself.

In other words, genetically engineered offspring.

If it's possible to artificially create a child from only one parent's genetic material (duplicated to create a female variant on Henry Lawson's, in this specific case), how difficult would it be to use the same sort of cloning techniques to implant a healthy ovum with Miranda's DNA, and fertilise that, possibly resorting to a surrogate mother to give birth to the child?

Heck, we can technically do most (if not all) of that NOW. As posted up-thread, compared to Project Lazarus, it's practically first aid...


(honestly, between things like this and the 'synthesis'/evolution bull***t, I really worry that at least one person in the Mass Effect writing team really, REALLY doesn't have any idea of how the principles of biology work...)

...What if, for once, she just wants to be normal?

She wants to be able to do something human, untouched by her father's genetic mauling of her.  She wants to have someone she trusts and she loves, someone who could, egad, actually get her pregnant without the entire process of it being one massive reminder that, hey, her father screwed her up...She wants her child, the thing, frankly, that every woman at least entertains the thought of, if not desperately wanting, to be normal.  She wants the influence of her father's psychopathy to infect and hurt as few people as possible.

It's why she saves Oriana, to save her from their father.  And its why she wants a kid, both to have a normal, healthy, beautiful baby, and so that her child would, really, not be connected to her father or his legacy.

[flemm]

jameshawking wrote...
What if, for once, she just wants to be normal?

She wants to be able to do something human, untouched by her father's genetic mauling of her. 

There's no reason to believe she was "mauled" genetically. On the contrary.

The father was domineering and abusive, but that is a different thing entirely, and seperate from her genetics. Any father can be abusive/domineering.

jameshawking wrote...
  She wants the influence of her father's psychopathy to infect and hurt as few people as possible.

Her father's psychopathy cannot "infect" anyone during reproduction, it's not passed down genetically. It's an *attitude*, a behavior towards his children, and towards others. If Miranda had a child via genetic engineering, and loved that child, there would be no problem.

Unless you believe that "not normal" = "bad." See my post at the top of the page.

Modifié par flemm, 24 mars 2012 - 02:56 .

[MisterJB]

I think that the theory you are presenting is all too likely, jameshawking. At least so far as Miranda views herself.
However, some of us don't subscribe to the idea that there is anything inherently wrong with the way Miranda was created; only the way her father treated her is wrong; and we believe that coming to accept her genes and the wonders she can make with them is a desirable character development for Miranda. Shepard could support this view in ME2. Sadly, her genes were not even mentioned in ME3 so we're not sure if her opinion has changed.
Huge oversight, Bioware.

Some believe that creating her child the same way herself was created would be the ultimate way of showing that she has come to terms with her own "birth".

Modifié par MisterJB, 24 mars 2012 - 02:59 .

[jameshawking]

flemm wrote...
There's no reason to believe she was "mauled" genetically. On the contrary.

The father was domineering and abusive, but that is a different thing entirely, and seperate from her genetics. Any father can be abusive/domineering.

Any father can be abusive and domineering.

Not every father can write that into your DNA.

Her father's psychopathy cannot "infect" anyone during reproduction, it's not passed down genetically. It's an *attitude*, a behavior towards his children, and towards others. If Miranda had a child via genetic engineering, and loved that child, there would be no problem.

Unless you believe that "not normal" = "bad." See my post at the top of the page.

A bit of your misunderstanding is that fact that i, I thought quite obviously, used a bit of poetic license.  "infect" equals "affect". She wants his influence to be entirely non-existant, not to have him force her to go through scientific hoops to have a kid.  It's a sign both of his remaining control/effect on her (which she doesn't want) and his effect on her kids.

There's also the possibility of her kid being infertile as well, which is a large part of the decision.  Especially since they're not sure WHY her genetic manipulation made her barren, but that's the only real reason they have as to why she is.

Psychopathy is, in fact, genetic actually.  There are genes for it (collection of them, admittedly), neurochemical indicators and everything.

And it's not a matter of what we want.  We are talking about a woman who severely resents her father and wants her child to be normal, as in with a Mom and a dad.  One conceived naturally and normally.

She wants her kid to be normal and for herself to be normal.  Running to a lab because your dad made it so that CAN'T happen is a big deal.  especially for her.

[jameshawking]

MisterJB wrote...

I think that the theory you are presenting is all too likely, jameshawking. At least so far as Miranda views herself.
However, some of us don't subscribe to the idea that there is anything inherently wrong with the way Miranda was created; only the way her father treated her is wrong; and we believe that coming to accept her genes and the wonders she can make with them is a desirable character development for Miranda. Shepard could support this view in ME2. Sadly, her genes were not even mentioned in ME3 so we're not sure if her opinion has changed.
Huge oversight, Bioware.

Some believe that creating her child the same way herself was created would be the ultimate way of showing that she has come to terms with her own "birth".

I understand that, really.

But again, your viewo n it is irrelevant in this matter.  she connects genetic engineering to her dad and TIM.  There's no real way she'd hop on that bandwagon, or even go along grudgingly.

And, frankly, I'm perfectly happy having flawed, imperfect characters.  Especially in "perfect people".

[MisterJB]

jameshawking wrote...
Any father can be abusive and domineering.

Not every father can write that into your DNA.

Henry Lawson's control of Miranda's DNA did not extend to personality traits. Oriana is genetically indentical to her sister and they're completely different people.
Miranda is not abusive and while she could be described as a control-freak, that derivates from nurture, not nature.

jameshawking wrote...
But again, your viewo n it is irrelevant in this matter.  she connects genetic engineering to her dad and TIM.  There's no real way she'd hop on that bandwagon, or even go along grudgingly.

That is why it would be character development.

Miranda's child would be as normal as any other child. Miranda could decide wether to giver the child genetic gifts or not. The child would have a loving mom and, possibly, a father. Henry Lawson is dead and Cerberus has been destroyed so the child wouldn't even need to hide from anyone.
The only difference would be the process through which the child would be conceived and Miranda should come to realize that this is of little importance.

[jameshawking]

MisterJB wrote...


Henry Lawson's control of Miranda's DNA did not extend to personality traits. Oriana is genetically indentical to her sister and they're completely different people.
Miranda is not abusive and while she could be described as a control-freak, that derivates from nurture, not nature.

Every action she did was a reminder of him.  She even said this.  She could only do X because of him, only do Y because of him, etc.

Perhaps this is only because I know from experience how domineering people seep into your life even years later, but even just the reminder of them makes them loom like an omniscient cloud, following you and chasing you down.  It's why, for example, a number of abuse victims move and settle into lives entirely opposite, or close to it, of what they had before.  Partially because they were forced into something they didn't want, but also to avoid any association.

That's something that Miranda can, literally, never ever do.

That is why it would be character development.

Miranda's child would be as normal as any other child. Miranda could decide wether to giver the child genetic gifts or not. The child would have a loving mom and, possibly, a father. Henry Lawson is dead and Cerberus has been destroyed so the child wouldn't even need to hide from anyone.
The only difference would be the process through which the child would be conceived and Miranda should come to realize that this is of little importance.

-shrug-

Her character developed just as much as any other character's from ME2.  My personal opinion is that it would be immersion-breaking if she was just totally fine with what happened to her and how she was raised.  It'd be like jack without tattoos, or Thane being at a carnival with Kolyat.

But this can't go beyond what I just said.

[flemm]

Hooboy, it's going to take a while to sort this all out.

First of all, we are talking about a fictional character, not a person. So, it is never valid to speak in absolutes, such as "Miranda believes this" or "Miranda is this." We can only speak in terms of interpretation, of meaning and potentially of the writers' intent.

This is especially true when a character is altered over time, as is the case here. The infertility is a late addition, and one of the points that has been made is that it was introduced for dubious reasons.

Any character trait can be re-interpreted, and its meaning can change, according to direction of the story. This is another reason not to speak in absolutes.

jameshawking wrote...

Any father can be abusive and domineering.

Not every father can write that into your DNA.

I don't believe we have any reason to think he did so in Miranda's case. This makes the rest of your comments further down about her father's psychopathy being passed down to Miranda's children somewhat irrelevant.

Anyway, there's no reason to believe that normal reproduction would be superior to other means when it comes to avoiding the transmission of Henry's attitudes. If anything, genetic engineering could be superior (by eliminating those traits).

jameshawking wrote...
She wants his influence to be entirely non-existant, not to have him force her to go through scientific hoops to have a kid.  It's a sign both of his remaining control/effect on her (which she doesn't want) and his effect on her kids.

There's no particular reason why it would have to be interpreted that way. On the contrary, succombing to angst about not being able to have children by normal means is a greater sign of her father's continued influence than using her own scientific expertise to overcome her physical limitations.  

jameshawking wrote...
And it's not a matter of what we want.  We are talking about a woman who severely resents her father and wants her child to be normal, as in with a Mom and a dad.  One conceived naturally and normally.

She wants her kid to be normal and for herself to be normal.  Running to a lab because your dad made it so that CAN'T happen is a big deal.  especially for her.

No, we are not talking about a woman at all, but rather a fictional character, that is the result of creative choices that we are free to criticize and even reject.

Some of what you say there can be inferred from the information we have about the character, potentially, but it is interpretation, not fact.

I think it's likely, as I stated earlier, that arbitrary valorisation of the normal, together with a reflex to reject anything that is abnormal, *has* influenced Miranda's characterisation since ME2. But that is a result of the writers' attitudes/poor judgment. It's not inherent to the character.

Thus repeating several times that "the character wants to be normal" is missing the point entirely. The character doesn't *want* anything. The writers may think "normal is good," "different is bad," when it comes to this particular issue, and that may be informing Miranda's characterisation. Which is problematic because, well, that's silly.

Modifié par flemm, 24 mars 2012 - 04:10 .

[MisterJB]

jameshawking wrote...
Every action she did was a reminder of him.  She even said this.  She could only do X because of him, only do Y because of him, etc.

Perhaps this is only because I know from experience how domineering people seep into your life even years later, but even just the reminder of them makes them loom like an omniscient cloud, following you and chasing you down.  It's why, for example, a number of abuse victims move and settle into lives entirely opposite, or close to it, of what they had before.  Partially because they were forced into something they didn't want, but also to avoid any association.

That's something that Miranda can, literally, never ever do.

Miranda's case is somewhat different. In ME2, she believed that anything she could ever accomplish was only possible due to her genetic engineering. Thus, it was all thanks to her father, not herself. Only her failures belonged to her because, if her genes were perfect, the problem had to be her.
And while Miranda can not run away from her genes, she can accept that her sucesses belong to her just as much as her failures. Shepard can try to make her see this, both in the romance and outside of it. So, her coming to accept it in ME3 would not be outside of the realm of possibilities.

Her character developed just as much as any other character's from ME2.  My personal opinion is that it would be immersion-breaking if she was just totally fine with what happened to her and how she was raised.  It'd be like jack without tattoos, or Thane being at a carnival with Kolyat.

But this can't go beyond what I just said.

Accepting the way she was created; that is, through genetic engineering; is different from being fine with the way she was raised, the abuse and such.
It wouldn't be so much as Jack without tattoos as it would be Jack teaching biotic children. Natural development of the character.
Miranda would never forgive her father or let him touch her child much like Jack will never forgive Cerberus but she should be willing to create a baby through genetic engineering if that is what she wants.

[Ieldra]

Richard 060 wrote...
If it's possible to artificially create a child from only one parent's genetic material (duplicated to create a female variant on Henry Lawson's, in this specific case), how difficult would it be to use the same sort of cloning techniques to implant a healthy ovum with Miranda's DNA, and fertilise that, possibly resorting to a surrogate mother to give birth to the child?

Heck, we can technically do most (if not all) of that NOW. As posted up-thread, compared to Project Lazarus, it's practically first aid...

Yes. LotSB wasn't out for more than a day when we posted this in the old Miranda thread. This "problem" is insulting to players' intelligence.

(honestly, between things like this and the 'synthesis'/evolution bull***t, I really worry that at least one person in the Mass Effect writing team really, REALLY doesn't have any idea of how the principles of biology work...)

I'm pretty sure nobody on the team - at least nobody with influence - has even the slightest idea. Bioware + biology = epic fail. It's all over the ME universe. Between the D/L amino acid thing, the misrepresentation of evolution, Miranda's infertility problem that shouldn't be one, omnisexual space babes etc. etc.. It's a miracle they got the rationale for the Volus suits right.

Well, if they thought this would make people break off with Miranda, they mostly miscalculated.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 mars 2012 - 07:09 .

[Dr. Doctor]

My issue with Synthesis is that it has Shepard making that choice for all organic life. The ME games, especially ME3 placed a great emphasis on the theme of free will versus control.

The Reapers enforce a cycle that organic life has no choice in, the Geth seek to create their own future rather than have the Quarians or Reapers dictate it to them, Cerberus originally stood to keep groups like the Council from telling us what we can and cannot do. Having Shepard force Synthesis on all life sort of flies in the face of that theme.

[Ieldra]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
My issue with Synthesis is that it has Shepard making that choice for all organic life. The ME games, especially ME3 placed a great emphasis on the theme of free will versus control.

All of the choices have that problem. Genocide vs. controlling whole species (in form of Reapers) vs. transforming intellligent life. Besides, I have laid out an interpretation of the Synthesis where the problems are 99% removed. See here.

Does anyone else think ME2 Miranda is the best?

[ThomGau]

She is the best, no question

I'm replaying ME2, not only is it so good to have her back but all the other characters I love as well, and without plot holes or oversights and all that fun stuff.
The tone of this game is far more immersive and involving than its sequel, it's impressive.

[Ieldra]

@flemm, MisterJB:
Not that it needed to be said, but I agree with everything you said re: Miranda's genetic engineering.

[redBadger14]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@Crutch re: your long post
I swear if anyone mentions this abomination of a scenario again in this thread I'll explode. It's like a cancer spreading everywhere. Kill it with nuclear fire! No, with an exploding mass relay. Totally unmake it and throw all of its proponents in an asylum to the end of their days.

(Admittely your version is slightly less objectionable than the original. So.....an antimatter bomb will do)

You know Ieldra, I have had a lot of time to analyze the indoctrination theory, and it holds a lot of water and I can't find anything that makes more sense of the endings.

Besides it's a little unfair to Crutch to just dismiss the theory by saying it's "an abomination." I would like to hear your take on the theory besides "its an abomination" though

Take note though that I myself do not blindly follow the theory. There are many things there that are desperately grasping at straws (infinite ammo no reload pistol, just a gameplay decision and the theorists are looking too much in to it), so I have selectively chosen what I consider the best arguments for the theory to ring plausible. Also, they say that Shepard goes through it the entire game and I think that's rubbish. Maybe he goes through it in the dream sequences that are scattered throughout the game. But I definitely believe Shepard was in the process of indoctrination after he/she got blasted by Harbinger's beam.

Besides, if the theory ever holds true in the upcoming ending DLC, I feel it could offer the best possible closure for everyone of which the current endings severely lack.

I think this article is also a fantastic analysis of why the endings of ME3 are bad. Warning though, it is long - Metagames ME3 Ending Analysis

Modifié par redBadger14, 24 mars 2012 - 02:08 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Does anyone else think ME2 Miranda is the best?

Yes. ME2 Miranda is awesome

[Ieldra]

@redbadger:
I have said my part here. Now can we please keep that out of here? This thread is my refuge from it.

[redBadger14]

Ieldra2 wrote...

@redbadger:
I have said my part here. Now can we please keep that out of here? This thread is my refuge from it.

The points you make are good and sound. The thing I think is flexible though is the decision you make (RGB), while G/B can be considered "Shepard succumbing to indoctrination," I think they can be used as a tool in whatever DLC BioWare is planning. Essentially, if one picks G/B to start, Shepard is weakened to indoctrination and its harder to obtain the "optimal" ending in the DLC but still possible. But if Shepard picks Destroy, he "resists" the indoctrination attempt and it's the best way to achieve the "optimal" ending but it's still possible to progress to a "bittersweet" or "sad" ending. I agree that labeling Synthesis or Control as "Shepard losing and being indoctrinated" as a deliberate pull of choice from the player that everyone so wants back in the endings.

There is however a lot to work with regarding the theory, so not everything is "right" or set in stone there. It does give one a lot to ponder over though.

Thanks for the response. I will cease to talk about indoctrination theory exclusively here, as this is the Miranda thread after all 

[TomY90]

Sadly the indoctrination theory isn't looking like its coming true thanks to new DLC will be adding closure and fixing plot holes

but the endings can be summed up as this:

Blue = The Illusive Man
Green = Saren
Red = Anderson/Hackett

just depends on who you think had the right idea on the Reaper issue which I would say personally Anderson and Hackett are right.

[Ieldra]

*resists going berserk with the utmost effort*.
Let's just say that your version is not in the least acceptable, redbadger, because it would still prescribe an ideology. Enough for now. I wish you had answered on my thread, then I could go into more detail.



...now off to play ME3. Enough to shoot there.

[Ieldra]

TomY90 wrote...
Sadly the indoctrination theory isn't looking like its coming true thanks to new DLC will be adding closure and fixing plot holes

but the endings can be summed up as this:

Blue = The Illusive Man
Green = Saren
Red = Anderson/Hackett

just depends on who you think had the right idea on the Reaper issue which I would say personally Anderson and Hackett are right.

Stop right here! This is EXACTLY why the hypothesis is insulting. Read my thread about it as for why - I'm ready to answer there - and KEEP THE THING OUT OF HERE THRICE DAMN IT !!!!!!!!! This is the Miranda thread and this thing is off-topic here.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 mars 2012 - 03:18 .

[jtav]

Well, at least her eyes haven't changed. She looks tired, haunted. Appropriate. And I'll still take her over a new romance, though not an ME1 imported one.

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Well, at least her eyes haven't changed. She looks tired, haunted. Appropriate. And I'll still take her over a new romance, though not an ME1 imported one.

"Eyes the color of space" - gods, this is so cheesy, but what's there to say if it's true, in a certain lighting and for certain permuation of space anyway.

You think the ME1 LI's come across better in ME3?

[Bruddajakka]

Anyone else notice that they fixed her teeth?