82210 réponses à ce sujet

[jtav]

Not ME1 as much as imported romances in general. My FShep's romance with Kaidan started on Mars and ended on Earth, or would have if I hadn't gotten it into my head I wanted to see Liara's new romance. Game spanning. New romances have the conversation where the romance is initiated, the sex scene, and a final chat on Earth. Miranda might have little romance exclusive content, but it's spread throughout the game. That matters.

[Melra]

Ieldra2 wrote...

TomY90 wrote...
Sadly the indoctrination theory isn't looking like its coming true thanks to new DLC will be adding closure and fixing plot holes

but the endings can be summed up as this:

Blue = The Illusive Man
Green = Saren
Red = Anderson/Hackett

just depends on who you think had the right idea on the Reaper issue which I would say personally Anderson and Hackett are right.

Stop right here! This is EXACTLY why the hypothesis is insulting. Read my thread about it as for why - I'm ready to answer there - and KEEP THE THING OUT OF HERE THRICE DAMN IT !!!!!!!!! This is the Miranda thread and this thing is off-topic here.

So you don't like what someone says, so you pull out the OT line to shut them up? Oh that's nice. U mad brah?

[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
Not ME1 as much as imported romances in general. My FShep's romance with Kaidan started on Mars and ended on Earth, or would have if I hadn't gotten it into my head I wanted to see Liara's new romance. Game spanning. New romances have the conversation where the romance is initiated, the sex scene, and a final chat on Earth. Miranda might have little romance exclusive content, but it's spread throughout the game. That matters.

Yeah, I'm just noticing that. The new romances are short. Though I've heard the same said about Liara's. I wonder if I'll ever see Ashley's romance. I can't break-off with Miranda, but I also have no ME2 game where I didn't romance her. ME2 Miranda was just too irresistible.

[jtav]

Imported ME1 romances and Garrus get the best treatment. Fortunately for Miranda, I'm only interested in Kaidan from that bunch. They did a fantastic job creating the feel of a relationship with Miranda in just a few lines. They're separated by circumstance, but the relationship is healthy and loving. If they survive, they'll have a long and happy life together.

[flemm]

Melrache wrote...

So you don't like what someone says, so you pull out the OT line to shut them up? Oh that's nice. U mad brah?

I basically agree. Dial it back a notch, Ieldra. It's common for discussions here to vacillate to slightly off-topic (but related) subjects, and generally there is no problem.

There's really no need to make a big deal out of it in this case, simply because it's a topic you happen to dislike.

[Td1984]

Bruddajakka wrote...

Anyone else notice that they fixed her teeth?

In ME2, they gave her Yvonne's rabbit teeth. Part of her face scan I guess. Not that I had any problem with it.

[flemm]

MisterJB wrote...

Miranda's case is somewhat different. In ME2, she believed that anything she could ever accomplish was only possible due to her genetic engineering. Thus, it was all thanks to her father, not herself. Only her failures belonged to her because, if her genes were perfect, the problem had to be her.
And while Miranda can not run away from her genes, she can accept that her sucesses belong to her just as much as her failures. Shepard can try to make her see this, both in the romance and outside of it. So, her coming to accept it in ME3 would not be outside of the realm of possibilities.

To return to this topic, I think it's worth adding that those who feel Miranda should "embrace" her origins are basically saying that Miranda should represent a certain type of transhumanism.

"Transhumanism" can be defined as (adapted from wikipedia): 

An intellectual and cultural movement that affirms the possibility and desirability of fundamentally transforming the human condition by developing and making widely available technologies to eliminate aging and to greatly enhance human intellectual, physical, and psychological capacities. Transhumanist thinkers study the potential benefits and dangers of emerging technologies that could overcome fundamental human limitations, as well as study the ethical matters involved in developing and using such technologies. They predict that human beings may eventually be able to transform themselves into beings with such greatly expanded abilities as to merit the label "posthuman".

All of that should sound really familiar because, when you consider Miranda's genetic enhancements, together with her work on the Lazarus project, you basically have all the ingredients for an interesting depiction of the passage to a "posthuman" condition.

The father represents the "ethical problems" involved. Miranda represents the "future of humanity" (Liara in LotSB). See also that concept art I posted earlier.

There are some other details in the game (both ME2 and ME3), quite a few actually, that make me think that Bioware has indeed considered the character from this point of view. Somebody/some people at Bioware anyway. It's frustrating, though, to not see it really come into fruition. I'm not sure what happened here, exactly. 

Modifié par flemm, 24 mars 2012 - 05:05 .

[jtav]

What details would those be?

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

What details would those be?

Well, compare the definition above with Miranda's codex entry, especially the 2nd part (though Lazarus is also mentioned):

Miranda Lawson is a high-ranking former Cerberus operative and a human biotic. Lawson headed Project Lazarus, the Cerberus operation that brought Commander Shepard back from the brink of death after the first Normandy was destroyed.

Lawson is herself an example of the achievements possible through genetic engineering. She was created in 2150 through manipulation of her father’s DNA. Her entire physical and mental composition was deliberately engineered, including a longer lifespan and a superior immune system.

Modifié par flemm, 24 mars 2012 - 05:10 .

[Ieldra]

@flemm:
It's telling they cut a conversation with Mordin about transhumanism. It's in the leaked script. I see a pattern of removing references to this. Martin Burns and his "committee for transhuman studies" has also vanished, in spite of references in ME1 and ME2, Miranda's genetic engineering was ignored in spite of being a defining character trait, and then the transhumanist aspects of the synthesis ending were buried under faux biology and semi-religious metaphors. Someone didn't want this. Given the references are there to indicate Bioware considered this, maybe there was a similar fight between "factions" as we've had here at times. The traditionalists won, obviously.

And yes, I think that Miranda represents a certain kind of transhumanism. Besides her competence, independence and pragmatism, It's a significant factor of why she is my favorite character.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 mars 2012 - 05:44 .

[flemm]

Ieldra2 wrote...
@flemm:
It's telling they cut a conversation with Mordin about transhumanism. It's in the leaked script. I see a pattern of removing references to this. Martin Burns and his "committee for transhuman studies" has also vanished, in spite of references in ME1 and ME2, Miranda's genetic engineering was ignored in spite of being a defining character trait, and then the transhumanist aspects of the synthesis ending were buried under faux biology and semi-religious metaphors. Someone didn't want this.

Well, that's interesting. What was the conversation with Mordin?

[jtav]

And, off subject, but related to cut content. Remember that conversation of Kelly's where she wrestled with her feelings toward Cerberus? We were so jealous. It's gone. Everything that might show Cerberus or TIM as something other than unremittingly evil is gone. Hence, I think, why that aspect of Miranda's character is dropped. Focusing on her role with them means acknowledging there was nobility and idealism there once. Simply put, Miranda no longer fits the game's view of Cerberus. So they drop it.

[Ieldra]

Found it. It was a conversation with EDI, actually, about Shepard questioning his/her humanity.

EDI: "Mordin sent me a nicely crafted message. It seems he recalls our conversations about the salarian equivalent of transhumans."
"Transhumans have some of their brain's abilities, such as memory, supplemented or entirely replaced by cybernetics. Legal definitions vary from planet to planet. The salarians embrace the concept. Humans have diverse and contentious opinions."
"You are fully human. Cerberus extensively reconstructed you, but your brain functions are organic."

I'd have to say the definition appears arbitrary, as to remove any transhumanist aspect from Shepard.

@jtav:
I noticed that, too. It's annoying, this ham-fisted treatment of Cerberus. But then, Bioware was never exactly subtle.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 24 mars 2012 - 05:56 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

And, off subject, but related to cut content. Remember that conversation of Kelly's where she wrestled with her feelings toward Cerberus? We were so jealous. It's gone. Everything that might show Cerberus or TIM as something other than unremittingly evil is gone. Hence, I think, why that aspect of Miranda's character is dropped. Focusing on her role with them means acknowledging there was nobility and idealism there once. Simply put, Miranda no longer fits the game's view of Cerberus. So they drop it.

Well, if you take those two things together (dropping Cerberus and dropping transhumanism), then you get... Oriana and the romance, basically. So, unfortunately, that fits.

Ieldra2 wrote...
I'd have to say the definition appears arbitrary, as to remove any transhumanist aspect from Shepard.

Specifically, it seems to suppose that "transhuman" means "cybernetically-enhanced" or "partly synthetic," which it doesn't, necessarily, of course, though it can.

Modifié par flemm, 24 mars 2012 - 05:56 .

[jtav]

I'm skeptical of transhumanism in RL, so it's not that. But strength, intelligence, beauty etc are good things and don't stop being good if they were acquired in bad ways. And the idea of human advancement and striving for the impossible aren't bad because Cerberus went crazy. I want redemption, to take evil and transform it to good. BW seems to prefer amputation.

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I'm skeptical of transhumanism in RL, so it's not that.

In passing, I don't think it would be necessary to turn Miranda (or the game) into a pro-transhumanist pamphlet. One of the reasons why Miranda would work well for this is the presence of the father, who personifies all the potential ethical problems.

But I think the game should consider the positive potential of certain transhumanist ideas, with Miranda being one of the catalysts for that.

It's science fiction after all. That's the whole point, really. To explore these possibilities.

Modifié par flemm, 24 mars 2012 - 06:20 .

[jtav]

I'm starting to think Miranda lost a lot when she lost Weekes as a writer. After all, he wrote her saying she was with Cerberus because they gave her ambitious goals. And he wrote Mordin's LM which is fairly nuanced.

[ThomGau]

Seems true jtav. Overall, I think in ME3 we lost the touch of grey and ambiguity which was so interesting in ME2.

May I ask who was in charge of Miranda's writing in ME3 ? And whom characters did Weekes wrote ?

Modifié par ThomGau, 24 mars 2012 - 06:33 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...

I'm starting to think Miranda lost a lot when she lost Weekes as a writer. After all, he wrote her saying she was with Cerberus because they gave her ambitious goals. And he wrote Mordin's LM which is fairly nuanced.

Well, Walters and Weekes wrote Miranda in ME2 (Walters on the crit path, and Weekes everywhere else). I love Miranda in ME2, so they did something right.

I only have two main criticisms of the writing for Miranda in ME2. In general, I think it gets better and more interesting the more one analyses it, which is the sign of good writing. Sometimes this happens partly by accident, by never entirely.

The two criticisms are:

1) The romance dialogue for Shepard doesn't give me the dialogue options I want.

2) I always feel like there is a missing conversation that should bridge the gap between the Collector Ship and the Collector Base, which would explore some of Miranda's growing doubts about TIM/his loyalty to her, and his vision of what Cerberus should be, and thus foreshadow/better explain Miranda's actions at the base.

Otherwise, it's pretty brilliant overall, and I think that is partly due to the interaction between the crit path and the non-crit path.

Walters seems to like Cerberus as morally ambiguous. He always says so, anyway. So, I doubt he was the one pushing for its rather one-sided depiction in ME3. As for Weekes, I feel like he's probably responsable for improving the Lazarus dialogue in ME3 and touching up the first dialogue as well, where we hear a bit about Cerberus, the Reapers and other things.

So, a lot was lost here probably, yeah. Not sure who did the writing in ME3, but frankly, it doesn't stand up to more than 30 seconds of scrutiny, and thus is the complete opposite of ME2 in that regard.

Modifié par flemm, 24 mars 2012 - 06:34 .

[Dr. Doctor]

I was actually surprised that ME3 even brought up the subject of transhumanism again. ME1 used  biotics to illustrate the concept.

L2 implants grant users telekinetic powers but can come with debilitating side-effects, biotics are discriminated against because people don't quite comprehend what they are or view them as a perversion of humanity. On the other side of the spectrum we have groups like Major Kyle's cult that views biotics as being the next step in human evolution. You could even have a biotic Shepard fighting for the future of humanity through the use of such powers.

The Reapers also could represent the dark side of transhumanisim. They're techno-organic abominations who twist races into abominations to suit their needs. In my opinion they're the Borg with a healthy dose of Neutral Stupid

Modifié par Dr. Doctor, 24 mars 2012 - 06:55 .

[wazir88]

Miranda, ME's femme fatale

[flemm]

Dr. Doctor wrote...
The Reapers also could represent the dark side of transhumanisim. They're techno-organic abominations who twist races into abominations to suit their needs. In my opinion they're the Borg with a healthy dose of Neutral Stupid

I dunno. As a concept, they are too far removed from reality, I think, to represent something that is, after all, not very far removed from reality (neither the positive or negative aspects).

The comparison to the Borg is interesting. One difference is the borg were portrayed as obeying a primal imperative to assimilate, whereas the Reapers are revealed to be trying to protect organic life from itself... sort of.

That last part is extremely convoluted and just comes across as nonsense, really. So, I guess what I'm saying is that Reapers worked better when they were more like the Borg, i.e. when they appeared to be a mechanical (and later techno-organic) race obeying mysterious imperatives that conflict those of humanity and other sentient beings.

Modifié par flemm, 24 mars 2012 - 08:25 .

[jtav]

Bit of housekeeping. How would you feel about changing the thread title to "I'll always want you in my life." Miranda Lawson in ME3.

[Skullheart]

What about "You gave me the rest of my life back."

I'm saying becaus it isn't a romance exclusive line and is a reference to Lazarus, one of her bigger (if not the biggest) achievements.

[flemm]

Hmmmm, well, I'm open to hearing a few more suggestions before making a choice, but I think either of those could work.