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[Ieldra]

jtav wrote...
And they had Cerberus Redeemed set up beautifully. Miranda the 2IC defeats her boss and "usurps the throne." She, Brynn, and Petrovsky are a spy, a scientist, and a soldier. The three faces of Cerberus on their best form. Together they could have laid the foundation for something better.

Yes, but in hindsight it's clear why all character stories not ending in death peter out into nothing. It doesn't matter in the end. Except if we make it matter in headcanon.

[flemm]

o Ventus wrote...

"Cerberus Redeemed" would likely mean her death, all things considered.

Not in particular, though one could imagine a scenario where Miranda sacrificed herself to accomplish this.

On the other hand, Miranda, together with like-minded "renegade" Cerberus operatives, could redeem the organisation by opposing TIM, eventually defeating/deposing him, and recreating the organisation to be in line with their own conception of it.

This would basically build on the more moderate vision of Cerberus presented by Miranda and other members of the Normandy crew in ME3. These people do exist, in fact they seem to exist in fairly large numbers. So, the pieces are there.

Anyway, it's a shame this more complex view of Cerberus is not present in the game.

Modifié par flemm, 25 mars 2012 - 08:41 .

[o Ventus]

flemm wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

"Cerberus Redeemed" would likely mean her death, all things considered.

Not in particular, though one could imagine a scenario where Miranda sacrificed to accomplish this.

On the other hand, Miranda, together with like-minded "renegade" Cerberus operatives, could redeem the organisation by opposing TIM, eventually defeating/deposing him, and recreating the organisation to be in line with their own conception of it.

This would basically build on the more moderate vision of Cerberus presented by Miranda and other members of the Normandy crew in ME3. These people do exist, in fact they seem to exist in fairly large numbers. So, the pieces are there.

My first post was an attempt at subtle humor. Probably too subtle, it seems.

In all seriousness, I could very easily see Miranda working with people like Randall and Petrovsky and Brynn, working to rebuild Cerberus in a better light.

After all, it's perfectly possible to advance humanity without the wholesale slaughter TIM-Cerberus tended to employ, or the twisted work ethics that Gavin Archer employed.

Modifié par o Ventus, 25 mars 2012 - 08:43 .

[flemm]

o Ventus wrote...


My first post was an attempt at subtle humor. Probably too subtle, it seems.

It happens

Anyway, agreed on the rest of your post.

[Godeskian]

Help me out here, fellow Miranda fans. I love tragic romances, and my ME2 playthrough in which I romanced Miranda is moving to ME3 soon, and I'd like to both rekindle the romance, and have her die tragically saving her sister. Is it as simple as not warning her about Kai Leng?

[jtav]

And it's a mystery to me how she ever became 2IC. Even at her worst, she's too good for them.

And it's a good thing she'll be invaluable to humanity's rebuilding. Otherwise, she'd probably be tried and executed for all the things various governments wish they could try TIM for.

[jtav]

Godeskian wrote...

Help me out here, fellow Miranda fans. I love tragic romances, and my ME2 playthrough in which I romanced Miranda is moving to ME3 soon, and I'd like to both rekindle the romance, and have her die tragically saving her sister. Is it as simple as not warning her about Kai Leng?

Deny her Alliance resources.

[Godeskian]

jtav wrote...

Godeskian wrote...

Help me out here, fellow Miranda fans. I love tragic romances, and my ME2 playthrough in which I romanced Miranda is moving to ME3 soon, and I'd like to both rekindle the romance, and have her die tragically saving her sister. Is it as simple as not warning her about Kai Leng?

Deny her Alliance resources.

Ah, I remember seeing that on my other paragon playthrough. Thank you.

[o Ventus]

Nevermind.

Modifié par o Ventus, 25 mars 2012 - 08:51 .

[o Ventus]

jtav wrote...

And it's a mystery to me how she ever became 2IC. Even at her worst, she's too good for them.

And it's a good thing she'll be invaluable to humanity's rebuilding. Otherwise, she'd probably be tried and executed for all the things various governments wish they could try TIM for.

In retrospect, the retroactive promotion to 2IC wasn't as good an idea as I had imagined.

Modifié par o Ventus, 25 mars 2012 - 08:59 .

[Vertigo_1]

OK, here's my thoughts on how things could have been different with Miranda and TIM's base (yeah, it's long I get it)

I have two ideas:

1.  A somewhat larger role than what we got:

I mentioned this part but here it is again:

Always thought it would be interesting if they replaced Dr. Eva with Miranda who's in disguise (Liara wouldn't know it's her), oh the drama that would be had (especially if romanced in 2).

Perhaps at some point you can choose between either the VS or her to join your team (the one not chosen would end up as a war asset)...Joker running away with your squadmates? God Child? That doesn't happen in my version.  Not sure how I would go about it but what they showed us isn't something that I agree with.

Also note that the way I would write Cerberus would be more gray in ME3 than just them being an enemy outright.  So certain scenes would be altered or cut: Reaper tech in Cerberus soldier on Mars, Citadel coup (I'd alter this).  Shepard also isn't aligned with a specific outfit this time around but can heavily RP (not just talking about it, but actual choices) for Cerberus or the Alliance.  I think Shepard is probably the most knowledgeable person on the Reapers (you know experience and all).

She accompanies you to TIM's base if you kept her as squadmate.

There's dialog with her whenever you find a vid log (I put that in the second suggestion below)

There's some dialog over the Human Reaper parts you see when you get to that part:   She can remark (and expand) on what TIM did after your actions at the end of ME2 (this would add to EDI's dialog).  How they used drones to examine it and human exposure was limited in order to keep them from becoming indoctrinated.  They didn't want what happened during the Reaper IFF mission to happen again here.  It would be disastrous.  Something along those lines.

Miranda finds out that TIM betrayed her by giving the location of Oriana to her father who ends up kidnapping her.  This was done to get Henry Lawson to come up with a way to control husks (TIM wants to use them to help in the war effort, TIM is hoping to use that data along with the Collector base piece he has, either the Heart or the Brain).  TIM knows that Henry is one of his biggest contributors to the cause (a callback to ME2 dialogue where Miranda states this). There's a confrontation in the base between her and TIM (He isn't at the base).

WARNING: I'm not good at speeches here so I just some basic dialog:

"Cerberus became more than just an agreement over protecting my sister to me..."

"After all this time, does my loyalty mean nothing to you?"

"Sacrifices must be made, one for the good of all" (TIM)

"What happened to human advancement? You wanted my father to create husks!"

I'm sure most of you can come up with better dialog =P

After the fight with Kai Leng (I guess he can stay as in the game not sure how else I could fit him in):

TIW is an OPTION:  She expresses the need for as much resources to use against the Reapers as possible (ships, income, etc).  She knows her contacts would help out (ex Cerberus associates from the Shadow Broker email if you recall).  She also believes in human advancement and mentions how humanity never had the equivalent of the salarian STG.

Choices:

• You can agree and she becomes the leader of what remains of Cerberus

• You can persuade her not to do so (Reputation option, the amount needed for this option depends on if you romanced her or not and if she is loyal).  Referencing her father's actions could be a part of this dialog ion trying to persuade her.

2.  A somewhat different role during the mission:

She helps with Cerberus HQ mission but is on the Normandy.  She is seated where EDI would be (since EDI comes along all the time).  Miranda in this role provides commentary and warnings throughout the mission (warning about the venting, paths throughout the base etc...whereas EDI does the cracking of encryption and such since she is there). 

Some good examples would be during those video logs (there's 4 of them on the station):

The Lazarus project: She could comment on the project itself (which includes some parts from the Redemption comic), the hours she put into it, staying up all night...and that one time Shepard unexpectedly woke up.

Romance exclusive dialogue could see Shepard retorting: "I thought I was in heaven and that you were an angel..." (Shepard smirks here ).
I'd also love to see some remarks on Wilson from Miranda [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/tongue.png[/smilie]

I would also replace the second video log with one where Miranda (not some random scientist) telling TIM about neurological response and asking for more funds.

The EDI dialogue:  Would have some input from Miranda who could remark that she knew about the Cerberus op to collect as much of Sovereign as possible after the battle of the Citadel but didn't know EDI was created from the same VI from Luna (considering she mentions that at the start of ME2 if Shepard chooses the Renegade option once he hears that there's an AI on the ship).

Kai Leng dialogue with TIM:  Here she can offer some background on Leng while he was in Cerberus (since the email you get has little info on him while he was in Cerberus).  She could mention that they worked together at some point. 

The last part about Kai Leng talking about Miranda's interference on Sanctuary would allow Shepard to ask "I saw the video feed when he confronted you, how exactly did you defeat him?"  She responds with "I don't sit behind a bloody a desk all day you know,  I know how to fight" which is a call back to how in ME2 she was always behind her desk typing up reports

TIM getting the implants:  She can comment about knowing a little about Grayson but was kept out of the loop.  She also didn't expect TIM to go through with that...or perhaps that was his plan all along (she seems conflicted here considering how loyal she was).  Questions how far the ends can really justify the means. (could use some feedback on this)

------------------
The 2nd idea in general is something that would have been easier to implement vs the first one (I prefer the first one though).  The dialogue in the second idea (with the vid logs) is also shared with the first idea.  Although, with that, she is actually there with you. 

Overall, this isn't fleshed out but it's ideas I had while playing through Chronos Station mission.


So, any thoughts?

Modifié par Vertigo_1, 25 mars 2012 - 09:01 .

[jtav]

Nice!

[ENorman94]

It's so dissapointing to read what could've been :/

[CptData]

ENorman94 wrote...

It's so dissapointing to read what could've been :/

Feel with you.



I wish those two women could have met each other. Either they turn into mortal enemies - or friends for life ...

[flemm]

ENorman94 wrote...

It's so dissapointing to read what could've been :/

Yeah, it's true.

When you combine Cerberus with the whole question of Miranda's genetic enhancements (both which are basically just dropped), the wasted story potential is really appalling.

Anyway, great stuff, Vertigo, I'll add some specific thoughts later

Modifié par flemm, 25 mars 2012 - 09:22 .

[ENorman94]

I wonder if anyone of the dev team is a Miranda fan. Its obvious someone on their is a Liara fan -__-

[o Ventus]

CptData wrote...

ENorman94 wrote...

It's so dissapointing to read what could've been :/

Feel with you.

*snip*

I wish those two women could have met each other. Either they turn into mortal enemies - or friends for life ...

Agreed. Same thing with Jack + Miranda.

[o Ventus]

ENorman94 wrote...

I wonder if anyone of the dev team is a Miranda fan. Its obvious someone on their is a Liara fan -__-

I'm going to go with "No".

Especially given that her death scene(s) are much deeper and far more touching than her living equivalent (Not to sound like a dick).

If any of them did give half a damn, they gave half a damn about the wrong components of Miranda. The majority of her presence feels like Loyalty mission 2.0.

Modifié par o Ventus, 25 mars 2012 - 09:26 .

[ThomGau]

o Ventus wrote...

ENorman94 wrote...

I wonder if anyone of the dev team is a Miranda fan. Its obvious someone on their is a Liara fan -__-

I'm going to go with "No".

Yep. Moreover she is expendable. She is a ME2 exclusive character, they wouldn't get the precious dosh with her anymore.

Modifié par ThomGau, 25 mars 2012 - 09:36 .

[o Ventus]

ThomGau wrote...

o Ventus wrote...

ENorman94 wrote...

I wonder if anyone of the dev team is a Miranda fan. Its obvious someone on their is a Liara fan -__-

I'm going to go with "No".

Yep. Moreover she is expendable, she id a ME2 exclusive character they wouldn't get the precious dosh with her anymore.

I hate to bring this up, but Legion and Mordin.

Both of them had monumental roles (Granted, they also both die) and gratuitous amounts of screen time.

Still though, even after I've beaten the game 4 or 5 times, I still think the "But she can die" argument is as strong as wet tissue paper.

Heaven forbid Bioware wanted us to romance someone who isn't Ashley/Kaidan or Liara, or favor someone who isn't Tali or Garrus.

Modifié par o Ventus, 25 mars 2012 - 09:42 .

[yesikareyes]

 I finished it yey!!! Also, if Kai Leng killed Miranda... I wonder if Shepard (who romanced Miri) would say "This is for Miranda, you son of a b****!" instead of mentioning Thane. 


http://commanderbedl...miranda-lawson/

Modifié par yesikareyes, 25 mars 2012 - 09:43 .

[flemm]

CptData wrote...

I wish those two women could have met each other. Either they turn into mortal enemies - or friends for life ...

Yeah. I think the problem here is, as soon as you let this happen, really as soon as you let Miranda interact with anybody other than Oriana and Shepard, the Cerberus question has to be addressed, and Miranda would have to give her take on it.

With Ashley/Kaidan this is particularly true, but not only with them.

I think this is why Miranda has no banter at all, and never boards the Normandy. Once that happens, there's really no way to prevent Miranda from saying: "there is another side to Cerberus." She would pretty much have to say it.

Modifié par flemm, 25 mars 2012 - 09:48 .

[jtav]

Does anyone else get the feeling there were major internal fights about Cerberus' portrayal?

[TomY90]

flemm wrote...

CptData wrote...

I wish those two women could have met each other. Either they turn into mortal enemies - or friends for life ...

Yeah. I think the problem here is, as soon as you let this happen, really as soon as you let Miranda interact with anybody other than Oriana and Shepard, the Cerberus question has to be addressed, and Miranda would have to give her take on it.

With Ashley/Kaidan this is particularly true, but not only with them.

I think this is why Miranda has no banter at all, and never boards the Normandy.

would be awkward considering all accusations Ashley threw at Shepard when she knew shepard extremely well let alone a complete stranger like Miranda.

Thats saying I was hoping for some banter not just Ashley saying 'I am the one that does not go into battle in swim wear' and thats it.....

[o Ventus]

yesikareyes wrote...

 I finished it yey!!! Also, if Kai Leng killed Miranda... I wonder if Shepard (who romanced Miri) would say "This is for Miranda, you son of a b****!" instead of mentioning Thane. 


http://commanderbedl...miranda-lawson/

I thought he mentions them both?