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[Nightwriter]

Does anyone know how many romance-exclusive lines of dialogue there are? I'd like to know the exact number.

[Ieldra]

Nightwriter wrote...
Does anyone know how many romance-exclusive lines of dialogue there are? I'd like to know the exact number.

Let's see if I can recollect them all:

Conversation 1 (Citadel, after Palaven):
M: Shepard…am I still part of your plan? It's been so long, I wasn't sure where we stood.
S: Miranda, things are never going to be easy for us, but I'll always want you in my life.
M: No second thoughts? This is your chance to back out.
S: None
M: It was hard to be away from you. Surprised myself how...attached I got. I'm not good at attached.
S: Just stay close from now on, all right?
M: I wish I could. I really do....but there's something I need to deal with.

Conversation 3 (end of the control chip scene):
M: I told you it's crazy.
S: It's not crazy. Well, maybe a little crazy.
S: Miranda, we're both under so much pressure to be perfect, we never give ourselves a break.
M: We can't give ourselves a break. There's too much at stake.
S: Miranda.
M: Shepard...
S: Come here.
M: Oh. Still impatient, Commander?
S: Still trying to maintain control, Miss Lawson?
M: Trying....but failing.
S: Good. I'm almost out of moves
M: I'm not.

Sanctuary (paraphrased):
M: Just be careful (paraphrased)
S: You know I can't promise that.
M: I know....bastard.

Earth:
M: I just wish I could be there....with you.
S: Me, too
S: ??? (forgot what he said here)
M: So finish this...and find me.
S: I promise.

@all:
Did I miss anything?

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 mars 2012 - 01:14 .

[ThomGau]

I'm not sure about the following lines, perhaps they also occur during the friendship path but you may have misseed them Ieldra.

Conversation #1:

M- Shepard it's so good to finally see you
S- You too Miranda
M- I couldn't get anywhere near you when the Alliance had you locked up

M- I was tempted to break in an see you
S- That would have been ... though to explain
M- Right, fun and games until they arrested me or shot me on sight

You can add the break-up lines

Sanctuary:

M- Did you worry ?
S- Of course I worried

You can also add the "I love you - I love you too" lines from the death scene.

Modifié par ThomGau, 31 mars 2012 - 01:38 .

[cg8900]

Ieldra2 wrote...

S: ??? (forgot what he said here)

"don't say goodbye"  ?

oh, and shep says something like "you found her (ori) and I found you" on sanctuary, it should be a romanced line but I'm not sure

Modifié par cg8900, 31 mars 2012 - 01:38 .

[CrutchCricket]

Elyvern wrote...
"You let that haunt and define your entire life? A two-bit villian who sounds like every other mouth-frothing cerberus scientist on the verge of an idea so bad that he must be utterly blind to the giant gaps of logic behind it? A man who stoops so low as to use a woman as a shield to safeguard his life, never mind that the woman is the daughter that he supposedly spent 20 years trying to recapture? And when Shepard offers a deceptive way to save his own life, he just decides willy-nilly to go with it without a second thought? Whom you then with one simple biotic push, cause him to plummet to his death with a girly scream?"

The fact that...that cockroach could affect Miranda in such a primal way--her insiatiable drive for perfection beyond his making, her insecurities about her genetic gifts, her fear of his discovering Oriana's whereabouts--in short, every defining aspect of her personality and character arc just makes me want to whimper more than just a bit.

It's such a grave example of character assassination, and a damn insidious one at that because it stems primarily from the passive combination of Miranda's reactions and responses over two games. And what a damn anti-climax it is.  

I'm just going to say it: I don't think I've ever agreed with something so completely on these boards as I do with this right here. Granted I haven't specifically considered the rammifications on Miranda herself but goddamn it this is so spot on. I don't know if Lawson's even worthy of the term villain, based on how he's presented. Remember when that one trailer hit where we saw the two seconds of Miranda hitting him with the push? I don't know about anyone else but I was absolutely convinced that couldn't be anyone significant. "Probably just a noob intern" I thought. But nope, this is supposd to be Miranda's worst fear personified. And he has to wear a nametag saying "I'm a vilain" just so we can be sure that he is indeed a dastardly fellow.

Ieldra: I didn't know about the death scene reference to the infertility. What's the exact line that mentions it?

As for the (surprisingly) long discussion on which ending is better, the correct answer is **** the endings. They are utterly irredemable and should be rejected entirely. I know some like the possibilities that could come to fruition after the endings but I would much rather list what those are and work them in on my own without this RGB abomination. But to each their own I guess.

[ThomGau]

CrutchCricket wrote...


I'm just going to say it: I don't think I've ever agreed with something so completely on these boards as I do with this right here. Granted I haven't specifically considered the rammifications on Miranda herself but goddamn it this is so spot on. I don't know if Lawson's even worthy of the term villain, based on how he's presented. Remember when that one trailer hit where we saw the two seconds of Miranda hitting him with the push? I don't know about anyone else but I was absolutely convinced that couldn't be anyone significant. "Probably just a noob intern" I thought. But nope, this is supposd to be Miranda's worst fear personified. And he has to wear a nametag saying "I'm a vilain" just so we can be sure that he is indeed a dastardly fellow.

Ieldra: I didn't know about the death scene reference to the infertility. What's the exact line that mentions it?

@Bold #1: I couldn't fully believe this guy was her father. It seemed spoilerish to put what should be one of the most important moment of Miranda's story in a trailer.

@Bold #2: Miranda to Oriana " I wanted you to have a normal life, mariage, children, things I could never have"

[CrutchCricket]

ThomGau wrote...
@Bold #2: Miranda to Oriana " I wanted you to have a normal life, mariage, children, things I could never have"

Really? That's the line that supposedly enforces infertility? Do I even need to argue against this? It really should be obvious.

[ThomGau]

Well, like I said a few days ago, to me it's unclear wether or not she alludes to her infertility. It's up to interpretation.

Modifié par ThomGau, 31 mars 2012 - 02:25 .

[CrutchCricket]

ThomGau wrote...

Well, like I said a few days ago, to me it's unclear wether or not she alludes to her infertility. It's up to interpretation.

Of all the interpretations you could have, one that enforces inferitlity is the least intuitive. Hell the whole line just sounds generic and cliched. Sorry but I can't take it seriously.

[Ieldra]

CrutchCricket wrote...

ThomGau wrote...
Well, like I said a few days ago, to me it's unclear wether or not she alludes to her infertility. It's up to interpretation.

Of all the interpretations you could have, one that enforces inferitlity is the least intuitive. Hell the whole line just sounds generic and cliched. Sorry but I can't take it seriously.

So...what do you think it means? For me it was appeared immediately apparent. I can spin it so that it alludes to something else, but the intention is quite clear IMO.

Agreed that it sounds clichéd and generic. But it's still there.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 31 mars 2012 - 03:00 .

[jtav]

And, regardless, it still feeds into the story I feared we'd get after LOTSB: poor, tragic Miranda who only ever wanted a home and family.

[ThomGau]

Agreed jtav.
During the death scene, the last kiss is very moving but what is said just before between Miranda and Oriana, not so much. Damn you, you bloody Housewife cliché.

If she said something along these lines it would have been more pleasing:

M- I wanted you to have a happy and normal life, far from Father's crushing control

I'm not good at making dialogues but you get the idea.

Modifié par ThomGau, 31 mars 2012 - 03:17 .

[Ieldra]

Yep, and that's why Miranda will not die in my games. That Miranda doesn't exist.

[CrutchCricket]

Ieldra2 wrote...
So...what do you think it means? For me it was appeared immediately apparent. I can spin it so that it alludes to something else, but the intention is quite clear IMO.

Agreed that it sounds clichéd and generic. But it's still there.

Well what's the cliche here? Badass operative Cursed with Awesome just wants to protect her loved ones so they can "just be normal" right?

I really don't think I need to break it down. Miranda wants Oriana to have a normal life, and marriage and children are a bundle people typically get with normal life. That being said marriage neither implies children nor does it require them. I see no reason to assume this line even references infertility much less strengthens it.

Miranda never had a normal life, between her father and Cerberus. And now that she's free of both there's the whole Reaper war to deal with. And even if there was a return to status quo, she still might not get peace, given the Alliance knows her Cerberus past. Finally even if she's allowed to retire, having spent most of her life the way she did, she may not know how to actually live a normal life herself or couldn't end up doing it. Wouldn't stop her from wanting to.

And as an aside I don't think she can be blamed for this either. I mean yeah if she did that she'd conceivably stop being awesome and we the fans would dislike her for it because we want to see the awesome not the mundane. But maybe it's one of those cases where we take some things for granted and can't appreciate "normal life" unless it's taken from us.

[jtav]

How about this? "I wanted you not to live in fear, the way I did."

And character depth isn't that hard. If I can pull off a Miranda who loves her sister and boyfriend and is also awesome, so can BW. All it takes is a few extra lines.

[CrutchCricket]

Hey all I said is it makes sense for her to want a normal life and you can't blame her for it. Blaming the writers for going that route is another matter entirely...

[jtav]

I don't blame her for anything. Miranda has no independent existence or will of her own. Characters never do. I've often said there's no real world Miranda Lawson to be angry with me no matter how I write her. She can't be angry with BW either.

[ThomGau]

@jtav: Yep, that would do it

[Td1984]

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

Random question:

I know you obviously can't replicate a lot of her features, but have any of you tried to recreate Miranda/Yvonne in the CC?

Somebody tried to duplicate Yvonne. I haven't tried it myself, but you can go here to check it out and get the face code if you like it.

www.masseffect2faces.com/index.php

[TsaiMeLemoni]

Td1984 wrote...

TsaiMeLemoni wrote...

Random question:

I know you obviously can't replicate a lot of her features, but have any of you tried to recreate Miranda/Yvonne in the CC?

Somebody tried to duplicate Yvonne. I haven't tried it myself, but you can go here to check it out and get the face code if you like it.

www.masseffect2faces.com/index.php

Thanks for the reply!

Miranda Pic I found on Deviant Art:

[flemm]

ThomGau wrote...

Well, like I said a few days ago, to me it's unclear wether or not she alludes to her infertility. It's up to interpretation.

 
I agree in the abstract, given that Miranda wanting Orianna to have a normal life is something she acknowledges back in ME2.

It remains extremely annoying, though, that such an idiotic detail would be introduced, then left unresolved.

It also seems likely that jtav is right about what the direction for the character was intended to be in ME3 (at least originally). Which is to say: creatively bankrupt and cliché-ridden.

As it stands, that reading only really emerges in the death scene, but it's also why the rest of the role is so unsatisfying: basically, by jumping through hoops you can avoid that version of the character, but you're left with a role that doesn't really amount to much (because it's just covering up the original idea).

Modifié par flemm, 31 mars 2012 - 06:02 .

[flemm]

jtav wrote...
And character depth isn't that hard. If I can pull off a Miranda who loves her sister and boyfriend and is also awesome, so can BW. All it takes is a few extra lines.

Well, indeed, that's how it works in ME2. Which is why the character is awesome. 

You can see how the character's motivations and ideas are being retconned in the LotSB dossier so that they conform with certain clichés that do not dominate the character in ME2.

One example of this is actually the first detail, the one that suggests Miranda is "obsessed with human dominance" initially, with the implication being that gradually this evil goal is replaced with the good goal of having children. (Of course, there's no reason why she shouldn't be able to have children, so you then have to introduce the utterly nonsensical idea that she can't. It's textbook character assassination, really.)

But to get back to the "human dominance" thing, this entry in the dossier makes as little sense as the rest of it because Miranda's dialogue in ME2 presents a much more nuanced picture. She's not xenophobic, she admires the Asari and the Salarian STG, she's wants humanity to achieve great things, and she wants to be a part of that. But there's really no trace at all of an unhealthy/pernicious "obsession" with human dominance.

Modifié par flemm, 31 mars 2012 - 06:22 .

[ThomGau]

flemm wrote...
 
I agree in the abstract, given that Miranda wanting Orianna to have a normal life is something she acknowledges back in ME2.

It remains extremely annoying, though, that such an idiotic detail would be introduced, then left unresolved.

It also seems likely that jtav is right about what the direction for the character was intended to be in ME3 (at least originally). Which is to say: creatively bankrupt and cliché-ridden.

As it stands, that reading only really emerges in the death scene, but it's also why the rest of the role is so unsatisfying: basically, by jumping through hoops you can avoid that version of the character, but you're left with a role that doesn't really amount to much (because it's just covering up the original idea).

It wouldn't be the only detail left unresolved, would it ?

But yeah, this one is particularly annoying: because of how it was introduced, of what it represents and its irrelevance and of how it isn't brought up whatsoever afterwards.
As of now, I don't know how to deal with it in my headcanon. Should I pretend the dossier was BS or should I imagine a conversation between Miranda and Shepard about it and a possible cure ? How would you guys deal with this (in fanfics for example) ?

Edit: Agreed flemm this is a character assassination. The "obsessed with Human dominance" made me raise an eyebrow. Yes she fights for the advancement of Mankind but it doesn't mean she is xenophobic. One character in ME is but it isn't her.

Modifié par ThomGau, 31 mars 2012 - 06:42 .

[jtav]

*reads flemm's post*

Oh, BW. How could you be this stupidly offensive in the 21st century? They've actually handled infertility reasonably well elsewhere with Isabela. She's an amoral pirate who likes sex. She also can't have children. This bothers her. (Act III gift). But the story doesn't pass judgment on Isabela or imply she really just wants a family. But judgment is passed on Miranda.

This thing isn't Miranda.

[Skullheart]

Part of me thinks that the guy who wrote her SB dossier didn't even know her character. She isn't obsessed.